Barbarian - Frenzied Berserker Changes

[FestusHood]

Never said that you couldn't just telling you my point of view from my experiences from the years I played and experienced. Why don;t I? I can play the other ones I choose FB but with the server decrease to the HP and heal amp for the small amount of damage return I might just go Ravager or go Paladin and do more DPS than a barb can ever achieve. But we will see on Lam and on live what's going to happen. And like I said before once again. I feel like it's a harsh decrease for the small return.

I might agree that the increase in dps is not enough. That doesn't mean it's not in the right direction. To fix that, i would prefer they add a little more melee power, rather than reverting it to the original ideas. Ideally, the increase to dps would be proportional to the decrease in survivability.

The way to make barbarian appealing to somebody as opposed to being a bard or paladin isn't to make the barbs more like them, but still inferior. The barbs need to be distinguished in some way, and i would be disappointed if they were distinguished by their high survivability. Barbs should have the option of exceeding the dps output of paladins or bards. Without that, it can never be anything but a flavor choice to play a barb.

When i played my barbarian, i was mostly ravager to get to the critical rage enhancement, but also had enough points in berserker to get death frenzy. I will say that, on live, right now, the berserker enhancements are vastly better than the ones in ravager. Main reason for that is that when i hit epics, i actually removed the cruel cut attack from my hotbar, despite having to spend all those ap on it. It wasn't worth working into the attack rotation at that point.

[nibel]

Not sure what you mean by trivial content.

I mean non-boss mobs in EN and ranged/caster mob melee attacks in EH.

Don't measure that against DR 60 on shadowscale. Use the next better number we have: DR 15 on Ring of the Djinn. See how that even on EN mobs, this will not reduce damage to 0. Even on tank characters.

[Qhualor]

I might agree that the increase in dps is not enough. That doesn't mean it's not in the right direction. To fix that, i would prefer they add a little more melee power, rather than reverting it to the original ideas. Ideally, the increase to dps would be proportional to the decrease in survivability.

The way to make barbarian appealing to somebody as opposed to being a bard or paladin isn't to make the barbs more like them, but still inferior. The barbs need to be distinguished in some way, and i would be disappointed if they were distinguished by their high survivability. Barbs should have the option of exceeding the dps output of paladins or bards. Without that, it can never be anything but a flavor choice to play a barb.

When i played my barbarian, i was mostly ravager to get to the critical rage enhancement, but also had enough points in berserker to get death frenzy. I will say that, on live, right now, the berserker enhancements are vastly better than the ones in ravager. Main reason for that is that when i hit epics, i actually removed the cruel cut attack from my hotbar, despite having to spend all those ap on it. It wasn't worth working into the attack rotation at that point.

rather not see more melee power. that to me is just the easy way to increase character power and its already interfered with frenzy self damage and barb DR. I would rather stick with the strengths of the class and utilize those, like rage. theres a lot of rage feats in PnP that would work quite well in DDO as enhancement or auto granted.

[Bladebolt]

I made it all the way to page 5! Lots of interesting stuff!

I wanted to quote 7-10 posts but it would be too much.
I'll just say that I agree with: JOTMON, serthcore, A-O, stoopid_cowboy, Ovrad, Wulverine, DrawingGuy
and I bet I will find a lot more once I read past page 5.

As I said before in DDO forums, I am a Barbarian fanatic. I love my FB barbarian, pure Barb and all my efforts go to maximizing the DPS.
I am proud that lately my PPR is up to 119 and I have chances of surviving a few fights on EE.
I also feel like I am driving a Ford Escort while everybody else has bought a Porsche....

So this is supposed to be a reply to Sev and the development team.

Greetings!

"This is the first in a series of posts outlining our plans for the update to Barbarians. The design behind these changes is that Barbarian DPS is largely in a good state",
REALLY? (Southpark style)
"but they lack mitigation and healers don't like that they take so much healing. The idea behind these changes is to make Barbarians tougher through sheer hit point bonuses,"
REALLY? 250 more HP so we can withstand 1 more hit on EE! that doesn't sound a lot like a solution to me.....
give them enough healing amplification so healing them doesn't feel like a healing sink, and adding 5th tier healing to help sustain them during dungeons."


If this is the design behind these changes then I am sorry to say that it won't get Barbs back in the end-game.
And that means to me, that the problem is that we ( a really major part of the players interested in Barbarians)
don't agree with you (the developers) on what the problem is.
Most players (99% of the people I have played with, I have actually met 1 exception), care about how they perform at the end game.
We make all the effort to make our DDO characters better and better and get to the point where we test our efforts against the hardest challenges.
That's when all we worked for falls in place and makes us proud.

The problem is that as a FB I am almost ashamed to join an EE party.
I know that I will be dead weight or in best case scenario a minor help.
What is the Barbs role in a party?
You want DPS? play a Monk (multi classed), get an archer or a Bard or a Paladin or ____________ (Fill the blank space with any other class).

IF you don't want Barbarians to be obsolete you got to give more than what you are giving right now.
Barbarians need a serious DPS upgrade.
DPS is what Barbarians are. If they don't have that they are nothing.


I am not the guy to tell you how to do this but I can resist commenting on your proposal here.



Die Hard:
ALMOST USELESS
Toughness: (1 AP, Barbarian Level 3). +20 hit points, and +10 healing amplification.
QUITE AN IMPROVEMENT
Frenzy: (1 AP, Barbarian Level 6). Activation Cost: 10 Hit Points. Cooldown: 30 seconds. Enter a frenzy, increasing your strength by +2. Your melee attacks do an additional +2d6 damage. This damage scales with 100% Melee Power. Passive: You gain +5 Melee Power.
MORE PLEASE?
Toughness: (1 AP, Barbarian Level 12). You gain 5 Physical Resist Rating. You gain +60 hit points and +20 healing amplification
COOL
Death Frenzy: (1 AP, Barbarian Level 18). Activation Cost: 20 Hit Points. Cooldown: 30 seconds. Expend 20 hit points to enter a Death Frenzy for one minute. You gain 4 strength. You increase your crit multiplier on a 19-20 by an additional 1 when raging. Your melee attacks now do an additional +4d6 damage. This damage scales with 100% Melee Power. Passive: You gain +10 Melee Power.
MORE OF ALL THE ABOVE PLEEASE!
Storm’s Eye: (1 AP, Barbarian Level 20). Activate: You gain +1 melee damage. --- This damage bonus gains one stack every six seconds, up to 25 stacks. This ends when you are below 50% health. Activation Cost: 100 Hit Points. Cooldown: 3 minutes. Passive: You gain +4 Constitution. You gain +10 Melee Power. When Raging your melee attacks that roll a 20 do an extra 400 damage. This damage scales with 100% Melee Power.
WHAT THE OTHER GUYS SAID


Tier One

Extra Rage: (1/1/1 AP). +1/+2/+3 Rage use per rest
CLASSIC VALUES
Cracking Attack: Melee Attack: Deals +1/+2/+3[W] extra damage. Damaging enemies reduces their AC by -1/-2/-3 for 20 seconds. ---(Activation Cost: 5 Hit Points. Cooldown: 30 seconds)
30 SECONDS?
Die Harder: Your range of unconsciousness extends +5/+10/+15 HP. When you drop below 1 health, you gain 10/20/30 temp hitpoints. This can only trigger once every five minutes.
ALMOST USELESS PART II
Power Rage: +1/+2/+3 Strength --- while raging
A LITTLE MORE WOULDN'T HURT...
Athletics: +1/+2/+3 Balance, Jump, Swim. Rank 3: When you activate Barbarian Rage, you gain +35% Action Boost bonus to movement speed for 20 seconds.
CAN I JUST HAVE THE MOVEMENT SPEED?


Tier Two (Requires Barbarian Level 2, 5 APs spent in tree)

Angry Arms: (Requires: Two Handed Fighting, 1/1/1 AP) +1%/+2%/+3% chance of triggering weapon effects on glancing blows and +3%/+4%/+5% glancing blow damage.
MORE
Body Blow: (1/1/1 AP) Damaging enemies with Cracking Attack reduces their Fortitude saving throws by 1/2/3 for 20 seconds.
WOW IMPRESSIVE! (I guess you understand irony) PLEASE, SOMETHING USEFUL!
Blood Tribute: (1/1/1 AP) Gain +50/+100/+150 Temporary Health for one minute. This scales with 400% Melee Power. You have a stacking -1 penalty to constitution until you rest or die. (Cooldown: 3 seconds)
COOL
Extra Action Boost: (1/1/1 AP) +1/+2/+3 additional Action Boost use per rest.
Sprint Boost: (1/1/1 AP) +35%/40%/50% Action Boost bonus to movement speed for 20 seconds. Cooldown: 30 seconds.
DOES THAT STACK WITH ATHLETICS? YOU WANT TO TELL US "YOU GOT NO CHANCE SO BETTER RUN"?


Tier Three (Requires Barbarian Level 3, 10 APs spent in tree)

Mad Munitions: (1/1/1 AP, Requires: Greater Two Handed Fighting, Angry Arms) +1%/+2%/+3% chance of triggering weapon effects on glancing blows and +3%/+4%/+5% glancing blow damage
OK BUT COULD USE AN UPGRADE
Blood Trail: (2 AP, Requires: Blood Tribute, Supreme Cleave) Supreme Cleave no longer has a hit point cost. You gain 2 Melee Power.
COOL
Supreme Cleave: (1/1/1 AP) Tactical Melee Cleave: Expend 10 hit points to activate this ability to attack enemies around you. This attack deals +1/+2/+3[W] damage. (Activation Cost: 10 Hit Points, affected by Dungeon Scaling. Cooldown: 9/6/3 seconds)
MAKE THAT +1/+3/+5 [W]?
Strength/Constitution: (2 AP) +1 Strength or Constitution
CLASSIC, at least we can choose strength!



Tier Four (Requires Barbarian Level 4, 20 APs spent in tree)

Crazy Strike: (1/1/1 AP, Requires: Body Blow) When you score a --- hit with Cracking Attack, for 12 seconds you gain +0.3/+0,6/+1[W] damage and 1/2/3 Melee Power.
TRYING TO MAKE CRACKING ATTACK MORE VIABLE. COULD BE MORE GENEROUS...
Exhausting Blow: (1/1/1 AP) Melee Attack: Deals +2/+3/+4[W], 1d6/2d6/3d6 Strength, and 1d6/2d6/3d6 Dexterity damage. (Cooldown: 20 seconds)
BETTER THAN CRACKING ATTACK BUT 20 SECONDS IS A LOT! IS IT WORTH THE AP
Wade In: (1/1/1 AP, Requires: Supreme Cleave) When you Supreme Cleave, you gain +1 Primal bonus to Attack --- per enemy damaged, up to 3/6/10 maximum. Lasts for 4 seconds.
PLEASE REPLACE THIS WITH SOMETHING USEFUL!
Strength/Constitution: (2 AP) +1 Strength or Constitution
YEP, STRENGTH FINALY!


Tier Five (Requires Barbarian Level 5, Character Level 12, 30 APs spent in tree)

Focus Wide: (2 AP, Requires: Mad Munitions) When you score a vorpal hit, you increase your chance of triggering weapon effects with glancing blows by +10% and gain +10% glancing blow damage for 12 seconds.
ANYBODY INVESTS AP ON THIS?
Focused Wrath: (2/2 AP) While raging, increases the critical multiplier of all weapons you use by 1/2 when you roll a natural 19 or 20 that is a confirmed crit hit.
COULD BE BY 2/4 AND ON CRIT AND NOT a natural 19 or 20
Lash Out: (1/1/1 AP) Supreme Cleave has a 50%/75%/82% chance to cause bleeding to damaged enemies, inflicting up to 1/2/3 stacks. This can stack up to 5 times. Your Supreme Cleave also reduces the AC of enemies by 1/2/3 for six seconds. This stacks up to five times.
REAL QUESTION, DOES ANYBODY SPEND AP ON THIS?

Multi-selector: (2 AP)

Accelerated Metabolism: While raging you heal 2d6 hit points every 4 seconds. This healing scales with 100% Melee Power.
WILL ANYBODY NOTICE?
Raging Blows: While raging your melee attacks gain +1[W] to damage.
NICE, MAKE THAT +4 [W] AND I WILL SEND YOUR TEAM PIZZAS EVERY FRIDAY!
Tantrum: (2 AP) Tactical Melee Cleave: Expend 25 hit points to activate this ability and attack enemies around you. This deals +5[W] damage and has a 50% to knock down each damage enemy briefly on a failed Fortitude save vs. 10 + Strength modifier + Barbarian Level. Abilities that trigger on Supreme Cleave also trigger on Tantrum. (Blood Trail, Wade In, Lash Out, Sundering Spin, Storm's Eye)
NO UPGRADE HERE

All these changes, even the ones I lighthearted ask here, will hardly be enough....
PLEASE A LOT MORE DPS AND ALOT MORE PRR!!!!!!

It is a big post and I wrote it while I was supposed to be working....
Not really proud of this.
Thank you all for this thread!

[XxJFGxX]

I might agree that the increase in dps is not enough. That doesn't mean it's not in the right direction. To fix that, i would prefer they add a little more melee power, rather than reverting it to the original ideas. Ideally, the increase to dps would be proportional to the decrease in survivability.

The way to make barbarian appealing to somebody as opposed to being a bard or paladin isn't to make the barbs more like them, but still inferior. The barbs need to be distinguished in some way, and i would be disappointed if they were distinguished by their high survivability. Barbs should have the option of exceeding the dps output of paladins or bards. Without that, it can never be anything but a flavor choice to play a barb.

When i played my barbarian, i was mostly ravager to get to the critical rage enhancement, but also had enough points in berserker to get death frenzy. I will say that, on live, right now, the berserker enhancements are vastly better than the ones in ravager. Main reason for that is that when i hit epics, i actually removed the cruel cut attack from my hotbar, despite having to spend all those ap on it. It wasn't worth working into the attack rotation at that point.

I see your point but snuffing out the extra HP and heal amp just to gain some melee power makes no sense. I don't understand why raise FB DPS which they desperately need because most of the tree in FB are near useless in epics especially in EE even now with the exception of a few abilities. And if they are not going to work more on the abilities in FB that are either near useless or just flat out useless then what sense does it make to nearly snuff out the extra HP and especially, more importantly the heal amp (which they need) from the core for a small increase to something that they should do and that's damage. Because as a high DPS you are more than likely going to get agro especially when you cleave multiple mobs so the extra heal amp would be nice. And I think Ravager should have a passive bonus in it's core. Occult Slayer has MRR, FB has melee power and tiny prr so why not Ravager? Just saying.

[Chacka_DDO]

Extra threat favors high multipliers, while extra multiplier favors higher ranged weapons. Since Holy Sword has both the ability as a whole doesn't dictate a specific weapon style. The ability ends up buffing all types of weapons (at least as base value) pretty much equally.

Sev~

I agree (also on other posts regarding this), but my conclusion is different.
A Barbarian should hit hard not because he swings his Rapier more elegant, and therefore he critical hit more often and for a higher multiplier.
A Barbarian hit hard because he is in rage.
Therefore a Barbarian should get more of this new shiny Melee Power as any other classes.
Therefore I see the entire crit thread and multiplier discussion as unnecessary.
Barbarians should just not have this at all.
All Barbarians should have more raw power, you can feel, even if he swings just a club.

[Blackheartox]

In all honestly Blood Tribute: (1/1/1 AP) Gain +50/+100/+150 Temporary Health for one minute. This scales with 400% Melee Power. You have a stacking -1 penalty to constitution until you rest or die. (Cooldown: 3 seconds)


This seems a bit silly.
How much temp hp will it be on a fully blitzed barb?
I dont consider this balanced at all, tone it down

[Teh_Bugbear]

In all honestly Blood Tribute: (1/1/1 AP) Gain +50/+100/+150 Temporary Health for one minute. This scales with 400% Melee Power. You have a stacking -1 penalty to constitution until you rest or die. (Cooldown: 3 seconds)


This seems a bit silly.
How much temp hp will it be on a fully blitzed barb?
I dont consider this balanced at all, tone it down

Yet again you are trying to underrate barbarians...

[Qhualor]

In all honestly Blood Tribute: (1/1/1 AP) Gain +50/+100/+150 Temporary Health for one minute. This scales with 400% Melee Power. You have a stacking -1 penalty to constitution until you rest or die. (Cooldown: 3 seconds)


This seems a bit silly.
How much temp hp will it be on a fully blitzed barb?
I dont consider this balanced at all, tone it down

Compare the minor defense boost and what you get as a blitzer to how much temporary HP you get and how much damage you will take. End result still equals wet paper bag and button mashing Blood Tribute.

[Blackheartox]

Compare the minor defense boost and what you get as a blitzer to how much temporary HP you get and how much damage you will take. End result still equals wet paper bag and button mashing Blood Tribute.

Not so sure about that.
Displace hamor, flawless black plate for 60 dr and around 160-170 prr (for non megatr chars like mine which would have over 220 prr with those changes as pure barb), dont see it being weak.
If it scales up to 400%, lets assume you get 100 melle power which will be prolly higher on a max melle power build.
It would be just to much hp imo coupled with prr changes we got to get massive prr.
I am all for making barbs viable, but this ability will be so abused with splashing multiclassing etc if it stays in current form, totally needs to be toned down

[Takllin]

Not so sure about that.
Displace hamor, flawless black plate for 60 dr and around 160-170 prr (for non megatr chars like mine which would have over 220 prr with those changes as pure barb), dont see it being weak.
If it scales up to 400%, lets assume you get 100 melle power which will be prolly higher on a max melle power build.
It would be just to much hp imo coupled with prr changes we got to get massive prr.
I am all for making barbs viable, but this ability will be so abused with splashing multiclassing etc if it stays in current form, totally needs to be toned down

60 DR if you are under 75% HP which you are not always in that situation. Displacement I'm assuming is what you meant only lasts 1:36 per click, and Rage lasts a lot longer than that so it is not a permabuff.

Also, how do you figure 220 PRR? Is there math for that? I'm skeptical a barbarian can reach that number.

Another thing to mention, this is just one specific case. What about people who aren't using Shadow plate, displacement clickies.

[Blackheartox]

60 DR if you are under 75% HP which you are not always in that situation. Displacement I'm assuming is what you meant only lasts 1:36 per click, and Rage lasts a lot longer than that so it is not a permabuff.

Also, how do you figure 220 PRR? Is there math for that? I'm skeptical a barbarian can reach that number.

Another thing to mention, this is just one specific case. What about people who aren't using Shadow plate, displacement clickies.

Il have 205 or so this life, took harmor prof and got maxed prr plifes.
But thats counting in ring from mod and dualwielding mjorhns.
Is less without planar.
But the prr that they will give to berserker cores etc would pump it til 220+ /strictly speaking about a fully geared barb with those changes. /of course its not realistical for people who consider etring a hard to do thing buts its only 36 prr less and will still be 150+ for regular player
Defense will be quite high on barb builds.
Splash 3 fighter and 3 druid for fatal so that you can stack up bonds faster and be stanced with whatever weapons.
I can alrdy see it being really powerful
Also there is option to go swf and use a handaxe.
I mean its just silly when you think about it

[Teh_Bugbear]

Il have 205 or so this life, took harmor prof and got maxed prr plifes.
But thats counting in ring from mod and dualwielding mjorhns.
Is less without planar.
But the prr that they will give to berserker cores etc would pump it til 220+ /strictly speaking about a fully geared barb with those changes. /of course its not realistical for people who consider etring a hard to do thing buts its only 36 prr less and will still be 150+ for regular player
Defense will be quite high on barb builds.
Splash 3 fighter and 3 druid for fatal so that you can stack up bonds faster and be stanced with whatever weapons.
I can alrdy see it being really powerful
Also there is option to go swf and use a handaxe.
I mean its just silly when you think about it

Really ? because of personal reasons it is now too strong ? because you are getting some extra prr for being a barbarian it is now too strong ? what nonesense is this ? do you want them to remove barbarians entirely ? why so much hate ? You need to stop being disrespectful towards the rest of the community.

Now please, do us a favor and just leave this thread before they start taking you seriously.
And one more thing, you are not to decide how i play my build because it is none of your business. Understand ? Plus the only silly thing i am seeing is you being disrespectful.

[Teh_Bugbear]

Please severlin don't listen to that guy over there, you are doing a great job.

[HatsuharuZ]

Personally, I find that there are a few things one cannot discern from simply looking at the changes on paper. I'd love to test these barbarian changes, along with the healing amp changes, on Lammania.

*wink* *wink* *nudge* *nudge*

[XxJFGxX]

Really ? because of personal reasons it is now too strong ? because you are getting some extra prr for being a barbarian it is now too strong ? what nonesense is this ? do you want them to remove barbarians entirely ? why so much hate ? You need to stop being disrespectful towards the rest of the community.

Now please, do us a favor and just leave this thread before they start taking you seriously.
And one more thing, you are not to decide how i play my build because it is none of your business. Understand ? Plus the only silly thing i am seeing is you being disrespectful.

Personally I think they should give a little more heal amp to FB and redo some of the abilities that are useless such as Lash Out, Wade In, etc. I mean why would anybody spend AP on an add on that gives you 3 to hit? Never met a Barb that couldn't hit something. Seems silly.

[Blackheartox]

Really ? because of personal reasons it is now too strong ? because you are getting some extra prr for being a barbarian it is now too strong ? what nonesense is this ? do you want them to remove barbarians entirely ? why so much hate ? You need to stop being disrespectful towards the rest of the community.

Now please, do us a favor and just leave this thread before they start taking you seriously.
And one more thing, you are not to decide how i play my build because it is none of your business. Understand ? Plus the only silly thing i am seeing is you being disrespectful.

I am not being direspectful im just pointing out 1 ability that could be to strong.

And scaling 150 hp by 400% mele power will be to strong.
Toning down required, since it costs only 1 con, as we get 4 from capstone you could look at it in case you reach 100 melle power fully blitzed as temporary 600 hp, aka free 2400 hp from capstone change.
Any reasonable person will agree with me that its to much.
I am all for making barbs viable, but i am not for making babrs the only must played melle like palie is now.

[Talon_Dragonsbane]

I suggest adding a one-time ability for quad damage (similar to Cannith Challenges). Have duration scale with barb levels. Maybe 1 second per barb level. Also have it as a class ability, maybe at level 16-18 to prevent super toons. Have a long cooldown so it isn't abused, like 15 mins.

Play around with duration and cooldown until there is a good fit.

[Takllin]

I am not being direspectful im just pointing out 1 ability that could be to strong.

And scaling 150 hp by 400% mele power will be to strong.
Toning down required, since it costs only 1 con, as we get 4 from capstone you could look at it in case you reach 100 melle power fully blitzed as temporary 600 hp, aka free 2400 hp from capstone change.
Any reasonable person will agree with me that its to much.
I am all for making barbs viable, but i am not for making babrs the only must played melle like palie is now.

They won't be the only must play class. There are still tons of people playing Swashbucklers, Centered Kensais, Monk/Rogue staff things, Monkchers, etc.

Also, you realize that it is a stacking -1 CON that you cannot get rid of until you shrine right? So you get a bit of temp HP, at the lost of Fort Save, and -28 HP after that temp HP is gone. I'd argue that the -1 CON might need to be increased to 2, instead of reducing the amount of temp HP or melee power it scales by.

[Blackheartox]

They won't be the only must play class. There are still tons of people playing Swashbucklers, Centered Kensais, Monk/Rogue staff things, Monkchers, etc.

Also, you realize that it is a stacking -1 CON that you cannot get rid of until you shrine right? So you get a bit of temp HP, at the lost of Fort Save, and -28 HP after that temp HP is gone. I'd argue that the -1 CON might need to be increased to 2, instead of reducing the amount of temp HP or melee power it scales by.

Yea 2 con debuff would be proper approach.
But lets calculate possible melle power for berserker to have a feeling how much that ability could be realistically on a fully blitzed barb.

I counted 30 from berserker, lets assume 5 more from harper /whatever source dont want to check other 2 trees now.
Epic levels will be increased to 30 if im correct by the time this change goes live.
So thats 10 x 3 for 60 total.
18 from dreadnought cores and 70 from full blitz.
Thats 183 melle power.
We can round it to 180
Since 100 melle power would be 600 hp 180 would be 1080 hp.
Now assume a fully str con based berserker who doesnt care about his con score.
You get from caspstone 4 con which is 4x 1080 hp (4320), lets assume you throw out yugo pots hp which is 2 con only for 2x 1080 hp (2160), and lets assume you throw in 10 con for temp boosts which is 10 x 1080 (10800) hp.
Now you lose potential 8 fortitude but you gain 17200 hp that needs to be cut down thro prr/ghostly/possible displace (you could basically play a elf with dmark for longer displace heh).

When you look at it realistically from this simple example it becomes quite op, doesnt it?