Barbarian - Frenzied Berserker Changes

[davmuzl]

no, not undervaluing it. more concerned that it wont be enough in regular game play when the fallback option is SF pots.

It will depend on the situation. But I can think about a lot of situations where 500+hp per minute would have been helpful. It might not make barbarians able to keep up with everyone else but I don't like the idea of barbarians with an o-**** button like the reconstruct SLA anyway. Not saying barbarians shouldn't have something else to compensate.

[Cetus]

Extra threat favors high multipliers, while extra multiplier favors higher ranged weapons. Since Holy Sword has both the ability as a whole doesn't dictate a specific weapon style. The ability ends up buffing all types of weapons (at least as base value) pretty much equally.

Sev~

Sev, it buffs all weapons equally. But the higher threat range weapons benefit more from the multiplier component of holy sword than the lower threat range weapons.

Both statements are true.

In other words, yes every weapon gets an additional +1 to its threat range (before IC) and an additional +1 to its multiplier.

However, weapons like falchions, which already had a massive threat range, benefit more than, say greataxes, from the additional multiplier increase.

Could put it yet another way - what is an overall better boost? +1 crit on 19/20 or +1 crit across entire spectrum? The latter, of course. But when you look at a weapon that ONLY crits on 19/20, then both of those buffs would be equal in power.

The moment you grab a weapon with a larger crit profile than 19/20, then the latter starts to favor the higher threat range weapon - which is exactly what holy sword does.

[Hawkwier]

When changes were made to bards we had a whole new set of SWF feats.

I've argued already that the barb DR is completely anachronistic these days. Particularly in epic levels.

This could be addressed easily enough by making the FOTW tier two damage reduction ability a multiplier to barb DR instead of adding an insignificant 1/2/3.

Make it multply by 2/4/6 instead. A L18 barb with splashes would get DR of 42/- from that in epic levels which is not OP given how hard mobs hit and the fact that barbs still have limited heals.

The increased DPS is a welcome change of tack Sev. Thanks.

But it doesn't go nearly far enough. There needs to be clear blue water between barb DPS and pally and bard DPS to compensate for all the other goodies those classes enjoy. Otherwise folk will just play them instead and all the work on barbs will count for very little.

Also, linking healing to MP isn't that great when MP is limited to mid 50s in FOTW. Make it scale with damage per hit, say every 100 instead will give more choice. More choice means more diversity, and that's a good thing.

So heading the right way now, but still needs a lot more to make the class attractive. And that does mean looking wider than just enhancements.

PS you could just remove SF pot penalties. That would give barbs access to decent healing very simply. You could limit acces to L20 for lesser pots and L24 for full pots to prevent their use becoming OP. Or keep the penalties in levels below such thresholds.

[XxJFGxX]

Is that also why it lost the Healing Amplification? Or is that a mistake that it was left off?

Yes.

Sev~

Laughter: (2 AP, Requires: Slaughter) For many Ravagers, there's no Laughter without Slaughter.
When Slaughter damages an enemy, you gain 3 Fury. When Slaughter scores a critical hit on an enemy, you gain an additional 3 Fury and 10 Melee Power for 15 seconds.

Dismember: (1/1/1 AP, Requires: Festering Wound) Cruel Cut increases Melee Power by 5 for 10 seconds. Cruel Cut additionalyl slows enemy movement speed, or slows attack speed, or deals 2d4/2d6/2d8 bane damage, or deals 6d4/6d6/6d8 bane damage. This bane damage scales with 200% Melee Power.


So FB get a passive bonus to melee power and in turn lose their HP and heal amp, but Ravagers get melee power through their abilities and no drawback from their heal amp or HP.

How about removing or lower the melee power/prr from the core and bring some of the hp and heal amp back as well as removing the passive +2 melee power bonus from Blood Trail in favor of a lil bit more heal amp to the core. Because right now seems a bit of a harsh trade off imo.

[FestusHood]

Laughter: (2 AP, Requires: Slaughter)
How about removing or lower the melee power/prr from the core and bring some of the hp and heal amp back as well as removing the passive +2 melee power bonus from Blood Trail in favor of a lil bit more heal amp to the core. Because right now seems a bit of a harsh trade off imo.

No, thank you.

[XxJFGxX]

Is Tantrums cooldown still going to be a 45 sec cooldown?

Any possible change to Wade In? The extra attack bonus from it is kinda pointless.

Will Lash Out scale with Melee Power or no?

Also when taking Blood Trail to remove the hp usage from Supreme Cleave and give the passive melee power will it affect Tantrum? If so how?

[XxJFGxX]

No, thank you.

Why not?

[FestusHood]

One players opinion.

As evidenced by this thread, there are quite a few people who think this way. Why do you think he changed it in the first place?

Why do you want all three trees to be the same? If you want berserker to be more like ravager, just to suit your taste, why can't you just play a ravager? This is what i'm not understanding. Why can't we both have what we want instead of just you?

[nibel]

I've argued already that the barb DR is completely anachronistic these days. Particularly in epic levels.

All of this is because of PRR mechanics. By reducing the base damage by DR before cutting it by PRR, the game basically cuts off any DR you might have by the ammount of damage you mitigate with PRR. So, if you have 100 PRR, basically your DR is effectivelly cut in half.

If they just reverse this calculation, then PRR would be multiplicative on your DR, making it much more useful. If you have 100 PRR, your DR is effectivelly doubled.

Before doing this change, DR will always be useless, even if they overpower it to 50 DR or something. Your own PRR will work to make it worthless.

[XxJFGxX]

As evidenced by this thread, there are quite a few people who think this way. Why do you think he changed it in the first place?

Why do you want all three trees to be the same? If you want berserker to be more like ravager, just to suit your taste, why can't you just play a ravager? This is what i'm not understanding. Why can't we both have what we want instead of just you?

"How about removing or lower the melee power/prr from the core and bring some of the hp and heal amp back as well as removing the passive +2 melee power bonus from Blood Trail in favor of a lil bit more heal amp to the core. Because right now seems a bit of a harsh trade off imo."

It seems like a bit harsh of a trade off between melee power with the sacrifice with most of the heal amp and hp bonus. Also Ravager and Occult Slayer gets melee power in their trees but yet we don't see a nerf to their HP and heal amp. Occult Slayer gets +20 MRR from their core but again no nerf to them HP/ heal amp wise. Ravager doesn't even get a passive bonus to their core whatsoever. Simply put to have balance between them as al the while having uniqueness to the cores. I've said this before of a possible alternative to this. Which I will post.


Total HP from FB cores = +80 ( proposed change -> (330)
Total Heal amp from FB cores = +30 (proposed change -> (100)
Total PRR from FB cores = + 5 (proposed change -> (0)
Total Melee power from FB cores = + 25 (proposed change -> (20)

Total HP from Ravager cores = + 340
Total Heal amp from cores = + 100
Proposed change to give Ravager total PRR through cores -> +20


Total HP from OS cores = + 350
Total Heal amp from OS cores = + 100
Total MRR from OS cores = + 20

Again numbers can be tweaked so the numbers won't be a huge deal. Now you tell me. Why do you want a increase to melee power (25 if you are pure class), instead of more HP and even more importantly heal amp?

[FestusHood]

All of this is because of PRR mechanics. By reducing the base damage by DR before cutting it by PRR, the game basically cuts off any PRR you might have by the ammount of damage you mitigate with PRR. So, if you have 100 PRR, basically your DR is effectivelly cut in half.

If they just reverse this calculation, then PRR would be multiplicative on your DR, making it much more useful. If you have 100 PRR, your DR is effectivelly doubled.

Before doing this change, DR will always be useless, even if they overpower it to 50 DR or something. Your own PRR will work to make it worthless.

With the new changes to prr, making dr apply after the reduction could be overpowered for heavy armor and shield types. The 60 dr from shadowscale could actually end up reducing damage to 0.

Replacing barb dr with prr is probably a better solution.

[FestusHood]

Again numbers can be tweaked so the numbers won't be a huge deal. Now you tell me. Why do you want a increase to melee power (25 if you are pure class), instead of more HP and even more importantly heal amp?

Because i have a tank that does that. It's another option, it doesn't have to be the only option.

When i play a barb, i want to smash things hard. To be honest, i play with other people who don't mind healing others. I get that you think byoh is the only way to play this game, but i will steadfastly oppose any effort to actually make it institutional, rather than a player choice.

[XxJFGxX]

Because i have a tank that does that. It's another option, it doesn't have to be the only option.

When i play a barb, i want to smash things hard. To be honest, i play with other people who don't mind healing others. I get that you think byoh is the only way to play this game, but i will steadfastly oppose any effort to actually make it institutional, rather than a player choice.

Through my years of playing this game it went to team playing and team effort to mostly a BYOH type of thing. Or how about a balance match between heal amp, hp and dps instead of having alot of power and relying on a healer to be stapled to your buttcheeks for the most part because you can't heal yourself.

[nibel]

With the new changes to prr, making dr apply after the reduction could be overpowered for heavy armor and shield types. The 60 dr from shadowscale could actually end up reducing damage to 0.

Replacing barb dr with prr is probably a better solution.

Uhh... what is the problem if somehow DR reduces damage to zero in trivial content? You see that all the time at low heroics with Invulnerability armor.

Shadowscale only have this freaking huge number on its DR enchantment because it is the only DR item released after the PRR mechanic was out, and added a big number to counter the PRR effect. If they fix the PRR/DR calculation, they could change this armor enchantment to 10/20 PRR and that would still be reasonable.

The point is: PRR/DR interaction just nullifies DR in the long run. Invert the math, and they become complimentary mechanics, like how HP/Hamp works (More you have of one, more you want of the other).

[FestusHood]

Through my years of playing this game it went to team playing and team effort to mostly a BYOH type of thing. Or how about a balance match between heal amp, hp and dps instead of having alot of power and relying on a healer to be stapled to your buttcheeks for the most part because you can't heal yourself.

Have you read the thread about the proposed changes to heal amp? If those changes go through my barbarian would have an enormous increase in effective heal amp. Without any other changes. This tree is still getting some extra heal amp and hit points above what they have on live.

The other trees still have the big bumps in amp and hp. Why can't you play one of those? You still haven't answered that.

Again, if the idea of having somebody heal you offends you, by all means don't do that. Unfortunately, you seem to be one of those that needs to dictate that i can't play with a healer either. That's the line you crossed, and i rebuke you for it.

[XxJFGxX]

Have you read the thread about the proposed changes to heal amp? If those changes go through my barbarian would have an enormous increase in effective heal amp. Without any other changes. This tree is still getting some extra heal amp and hit points above what they have on live.

The other trees still have the big bumps in amp and hp. Why can't you play one of those? You still haven't answered that.

Again, if the idea of having somebody heal you offends you, by all means don't do that. Unfortunately, you seem to be one of those that needs to dictate that i can't play with a healer either. That's the line you crossed, and i rebuke you for it.

Never said that you couldn't just telling you my point of view from my experiences from the years I played and experienced. Why don;t I? I can play the other ones I choose FB but with the server decrease to the HP and heal amp for the small amount of damage return I might just go Ravager or go Paladin and do more DPS than a barb can ever achieve. But we will see on Lam and on live what's going to happen. And like I said before once again. I feel like it's a harsh decrease for the small return.

[FestusHood]

Uhh... what is the problem if somehow DR reduces damage to zero in trivial content? You see that all the time at low heroics with Invulnerability armor.

Shadowscale only have this freaking huge number on its DR enchantment because it is the only DR item released after the PRR mechanic was out, and added a big number to counter the PRR effect. If they fix the PRR/DR calculation, they could change this armor enchantment to 10/20 PRR and that would still be reasonable.

The point is: PRR/DR interaction just nullifies DR in the long run. Invert the math, and they become complimentary mechanics, like how HP/Hamp works (More you have of one, more you want of the other).

Not sure what you mean by trivial content. With prr over about 200 epic elite trash mobs only hit you for about 50-60 damage. Now bosses might be a bit different, for example the dragon in don't drink the water hit me for about 120. If you threw in the 60 dr at the end, which i didn't have, now the dragon is hitting you for 60. Again, this is on a tank, not a barb. Problem is, if they change the formula, it changes for everybody.

If they reduce the dr amounts to compensate for the change in the formula so that it balances out to have the same effect it did before they made the changes, it would seem to be kind of pointless to change it at all.

[btolson]

Also, linking healing to MP isn't that great when MP is limited to mid 50s in FOTW. Make it scale with damage per hit, say every 100 instead will give more choice. More choice means more diversity, and that's a good thing.

This belongs in the ravager thread, so I replied to you there

[J-mann]

Not really talking time frames so much as having a consistent reliable way of making something helpless vs not.

I've never played with Ear Smash if its 75% as good as Overwhelming Force then its good enough and DC is always a better destiny then Fury. But if its not that good then Overwhelming Force is a very strong ability in Fury that when combined with the 6 MP and bursts from Adrenaline makes Fury competitive.

Overwhelming force is good, no doubt, but it is largely dependant on number of mobs in quest and how often you can get that vorpal. I have found Fury to be largely useless in some of the later quests (especially sh and wheloon) just because they throw so many mobs at you at a time that overwhelming is much more limited. Its hard to say that it overcomes stacking plus one threat, aura, and 10% double strike. The other huge thing a lot of people seem to be ignoring is the heals on kill, which even a raging barb gets, which are HUGE. I rarely need to heal in fight just because of that mechanic and most of my heals take place after the fight is over just to top off.....

[XxJFGxX]

Is Tantrums cooldown still going to be a 45 sec cooldown?

Any possible change to Wade In? The extra attack bonus from it is kinda pointless.

Will Lash Out scale with Melee Power or no?

Also when taking Blood Trail to remove the hp usage from Supreme Cleave and give the passive melee power will it affect Tantrum? If so how?

Anybody have an answer for these or is it undecided?

Also I wonder how a Bladeforged Barb would do in FB now