Barbarian - Frenzied Berserker Changes

[Qhualor]

Suppose to be for all PrEs, I already posted the comparison with FB to the other trees as well as a proposed change to help balance it out. Before the change to FB their tree sucked and quite frankly they still do because most of the abilities are worthless in higher epic content. Ravager and Occult Slayer got a huge boost when it comes to DPS and survivability. While FB got nothing until it got a lil boost with the cost most of their HP boost and heal amp boost. Doesn't seem fair at all. Why should people that want to use FB have to spend extra points into other Barbarian trees for a lil bit of extra heal amp because the FB tree barely has any of that of it's own when it should have the same amount of heal amp in the core as the other Barbarian PrEs per Sev's statement above?

My other question is why do you people want to sacrifice the HP boost and most of the heal amp boost from the FB cores for a bit more DPS?

I actually thought Ravager was more useless in epics because a lot of the enhancements do -2 stat damage. most stuff in FB tree is about more damage and increasing glancing blows. the best thing Ravager has is the Crit Rage.

OS got more of a dps boost with the addition of melee power and not breaking Weapon Bond when they switch weapons. that will be the go to tree when players prefer to play a more survivable barbarian.

my biggest concern overall and now more specifically with FB is that regardless of the dps boosts and additional heal amp, they will still be using penalty SF pots in epics and CSW pots in heroics. many like the healing you get from SF pots, but not many are willing to deal with the slow run speed and ability and saves reduction. unless the tier 5s are OP, barbarians are still going to fall behind in groups, people will complain about self healing options, try to splash barb with other classes like bard or FVS to not need to rely on pots and barbs wont get much of an increase in playability. I wont know until Lama how survivable or how much more dps barbs are getting, but one of the bigger issues is still not being addressed.

[XxJFGxX]

I actually thought Ravager was more useless in epics because a lot of the enhancements do -2 stat damage. most stuff in FB tree is about more damage and increasing glancing blows. the best thing Ravager has is the Crit Rage.

OS got more of a dps boost with the addition of melee power and not breaking Weapon Bond when they switch weapons. that will be the go to tree when players prefer to play a more survivable barbarian.

my biggest concern overall and now more specifically with FB is that regardless of the dps boosts and additional heal amp, they will still be using penalty SF pots in epics and CSW pots in heroics. many like the healing you get from SF pots, but not many are willing to deal with the slow run speed and ability and saves reduction. unless the tier 5s are OP, barbarians are still going to fall behind in groups, people will complain about self healing options, try to splash barb with other classes like bard or FVS to not need to rely on pots and barbs wont get much of an increase in playability. I wont know until Lama how survivable or how much more dps barbs are getting, but one of the bigger issues is still not being addressed.

You need to look at the Ravager enhancements:
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...avager-Changes

Completely pointless splashing bard or fvs to barb for healing because you can't use cure light wounds while barb raged. And where in the FB tree that gives you more damage?

[Qhualor]

You need to look at the Ravager enhancements:
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...avager-Changes

Completely pointless splashing bard or fvs to barb for healing because you can't use cure light wounds while barb raged. And where in the FB tree that gives you more damage?

I know that Ravager got some nice dps boosts, but some of the enhancements still wont do squat in epics that do stat damage.

I take it you have never heard of bards splashing barb before? they used to be pretty common.

heres one FVS and barb example https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...n+favored+soul

[XxJFGxX]

I know that Ravager got some nice dps boosts, but some of the enhancements still wont do squat in epics that do stat damage.

I take it you have never heard of bards splashing barb before? they used to be pretty common.

heres one FVS and barb example https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...n+favored+soul

Actually I used to be one of those type of bardbarians and didn't see the suffient amount in heals while doing epics especially on EE, and it appears that the only healing from that build is the amelioriating strike for a small healing return when a EE mob is doing 200+ damage give or take base on your DR and PRR. And you can't use heavy armor because I take it with the rogue levels are for evasion so the only armor you can use is light armor.

And as for the Ravager I think you are overlooking the add ons to most of the abilities and the tier 5s.

[PermaBanned]

Suppose to be for all PrEs, I already posted the comparison with FB to the other trees as well as a proposed change to help balance it out. Before the change to FB their tree sucked and quite frankly they still do because most of the abilities are worthless in higher epic content. Ravager and Occult Slayer got a huge boost when it comes to DPS and survivability. While FB got nothing until it got a lil boost with the cost most of their HP boost and heal amp boost. Doesn't seem fair at all. Why should people that want to use FB have to spend extra points into other Barbarian trees for a lil bit of extra heal amp because the FB tree barely has any of that of it's own when it should have the same amount of heal amp in the core as the other Barbarian PrEs per Sev's statement above?

Part of the problem is that in the intro you quoted theirs two flawed premises:

This is the first in a series of posts outlining our plans for the update to Barbarians. The design behind these changes is that Barbarian DPS is largely in a good state,

See, that part was a misconception that needed to be addressed. Being (at best) on par with Swashys & Pallys =/= "largely in a good state," in fact it's largely not in a good state ATM. While Bards & Pallys have significant options for damage mitigation and recovery, Barbarians have extremely few; and while most classes have significant splashing options for increased survivability, Barbarians again have extremely few due to Alignment restrictions and the casting limitations from being Raged. Thus, for Barbarian DPS to be "largely in a good place" it should be high enough to effectively contribute to damage mitigation by ensuring things will have very limited opportunities to inflict damage to the Barbarian.

...but they lack mitigation and healers don't like that they take so much healing. The idea behind these changes is to make Barbarians tougher through sheer hit point bonuses, give them enough healing amplification so healing them doesn't feel like a healing sink, and adding 5th tier healing to help sustain them during dungeons.

The rest of ~Sev's premise is somewhat flawed here as well - it's great that they want to make Barbarians more "Healer friendly," but given the relative lack of "healers" it's a somewhat hollow gesture; that is, it doesn't matter how "healer friendly" a character is when there isn't a healer, and in my experience that's most of the time I spend in non-raid groups, and even many raid groups (remember: many people with Favored Soul and Cleric icons consider themselves as "Divines" and not as "Healers"). In other words, making Barbs more "healer friendly" does nothing to improve playability in the (rather common) self sufficiency goups.

Another problem is in how they tried to go about fixing the Barbarian - simply pouring gobs of HP & Hamp onto the cores of every tree was an improper solution to a misunderstood problem. They're a good idea as part of a solution, but wholly insufficient as the bulk of a solution. You might also notice ~Sev included a lack of mitigation in the quoted text, yet I've seen very little done in any of the trees to address that.

If you look at the names (and thus the implied flavor) of the trees, two of them (Frenzied Berserker and Occult Slayer) easily define what sorts of additions/changes should be made to address the Barbarian's Epic shortcomings.

• FB should focus on piling on the DPS, with a key survivability change being the elimination of Frenzy self damage. I think they went overboard in both how much HP & Hamp they initially heaped on (true for all trees there) and in how much they later removed - a better revision (imo) would've been to reduce the initially proposed HP by only ~1/3 (though the minimal Hamp here I find acceptable) while increasing the PRR & MP by significantly more than they did.

• OS should continue with it's theme of being the antimagic tree. To be honest, the HP & Hamp totals seem kinda high here as well - I wouldn't mind seeing them reduced some, in exchange for stronger mitigation vs Magic in the form of stronger MRR and some uniquely cool things like "MRR now applies to all sources of magical damage, including Force, Negative etc..." (<- would be a nice Lvl 18 core ) and/or some features like Mettle drawn from the (the most antimagic pre ever) Foresaker.

• Ravager is what I would like to see as the Barbarian's "generalist" tree. This should be the strongest source of Hamp as well as an additional source of P/MRR, and fill the role of being the ideal second tree for someone persuing one of the other two as a primary; it also has the strongest built in Self Healing for those looking for it, and a unique Capstone (using Rages for something besides Raging) for people looking to build a "different" sort of Barbarian.

My other question is why do you people want to sacrifice or are ok with sacrificing the HP boost and most of the heal amp boost from the FB cores for a bit more DPS and spending extra action points in the other trees just to get a small amount to heal amp when you could of gotten alot more with the FB core that it had before it was mostly removed.

Because I like things to make sense, and have flavor too - and I hated Frenzy self damage. Would I prefer to have lots of HP & Hamp and ditch the Frenzy DPS to self? Sure, but wanting it doesn't mean it would make sense to have it. Please don't be too quick to try and chain ~Sev to that opening post you're quoting. I would prefer to see more mitigation (ie PRR) options than just HP + Hamp & done.

[XxJFGxX]

Part of the problem is that in the intro you quoted theirs two flawed premises:

See, that part was a misconception that needed to be addressed. Being (at best) on par with Swashys & Pallys =/= "largely in a good state," in fact it's largely not in a good state ATM. While Bards & Pallys have significant options for damage mitigation and recovery, Barbarians have extremely few; and while most classes have significant splashing options for increased survivability, Barbarians again have extremely few due to Alignment restrictions and the casting limitations from being Raged. Thus, for Barbarian DPS to be "largely in a good place" it should be high enough to effectively contribute to damage mitigation by ensuring things will have very limited opportunities to inflict damage to the Barbarian.

The rest of ~Sev's premise is somewhat flawed here as well - it's great that they want to make Barbarians more "Healer friendly," but given the relative lack of "healers" it's a somewhat hollow gesture; that is, it doesn't matter how "healer friendly" a character is when there isn't a healer, and in my experience that's most of the time I spend in non-raid groups, and even many raid groups (remember: many people with Favored Soul and Cleric icons consider themselves as "Divines" and not as "Healers"). In other words, making Barbs more "healer friendly" does nothing to improve playability in the (rather common) self sufficiency goups.

Another problem is in how they tried to go about fixing the Barbarian - simply pouring gobs of HP & Hamp onto the cores of every tree was an improper solution to a misunderstood problem. They're a good idea as part of a solution, but wholly insufficient as the bulk of a solution. You might also notice ~Sev included a lack of mitigation in the quoted text, yet I've seen very little done in any of the trees to address that.

If you look at the names (and thus the implied flavor) of the trees, two of them (Frenzied Berserker and Occult Slayer) easily define what sorts of additions/changes should be made to address the Barbarian's Epic shortcomings.

• FB should focus on piling on the DPS, with a key survivability change being the elimination of Frenzy self damage. I think they went overboard in both how much HP & Hamp they initially heaped on (true for all trees there) and in how much they later removed - a better revision (imo) would've been to reduce the initially proposed HP by only ~1/3 (though the minimal Hamp here I find acceptable) while increasing the PRR & MP by significantly more than they did.

• OS should continue with it's theme of being the antimagic tree. To be honest, the HP & Hamp totals seem kinda high here as well - I wouldn't mind seeing them reduced some, in exchange for stronger mitigation vs Magic in the form of stronger MRR and some uniquely cool things like "MRR now applies to all sources of magical damage, including Force, Negative etc..." (<- would be a nice Lvl 18 core ) and/or some features like Mettle drawn from the (the most antimagic pre ever) Foresaker.

• Ravager is what I would like to see as the Barbarian's "generalist" tree. This should be the strongest source of Hamp as well as an additional source of P/MRR, and fill the role of being the ideal second tree for someone persuing one of the other two as a primary; it also has the strongest built in Self Healing for those looking for it, and a unique Capstone (using Rages for something besides Raging) for people looking to build a "different" sort of Barbarian.


Because I like things to make sense, and have flavor too - and I hated Frenzy self damage. Would I prefer to have lots of HP & Hamp and ditch the Frenzy DPS to self? Sure, but wanting it doesn't mean it would make sense to have it. Please don't be too quick to try and chain ~Sev to that opening post you're quoting. I would prefer to see more mitigation (ie PRR) options than just HP + Hamp & done.

This game has become mostly a BYOH type of game with the lack of "Healers". The reason why Sev is initially adding more heal amp to barbs is that they can be more self healing with pots and their new tier 5 abilities. If there so happen to be a healer there, it's an added bonus. My problem is that when the FB finally gets a boost as small as it is the drawback is mostly removing what Sev has intended to give barbarians as a whole.

[Qhualor]

This game has become mostly a BYOH type of game with the lack of "Healers". The reason why Sev is initially adding more heal amp to barbs is that they can be more self healing with pots and their new tier 5 abilities. If there so happen to be a healer there, it's an added bonus. My problemis that when the FB finally gets a boost as small as it is the drawback is mostly removing what Sev has intended to give barbarians as a whole.

That would be more self healing with CSW pots. SF pots already heal for a lot with minimal investment. I think the complaint that "barbs are hard to heal" stems from when WF was still being played, FBs self damage that some didn't understand and the lack of needed defense resulting in more damage from mobs. 2 major issues are still not being addressed.

1. Potion healing. Even with heal amp in every core, there's no way CSW pots would still be viable outside of heroics. Tier 5s are on hit or expend Weapon Bonds. Players still will have to rely on penalty SF pots not finding it fun to be penalized to stay alive and fall behind in groups.

2. Defense. Very disappointed that barb DR can't be improved. Barbs lose big flavor. PRR would be the substitute, but barbs aren't getting much improvement there. I could understand reducing the heal amp in the trees if there was going to be a better PRR boost, but as front line melees taking on damage constantly, they will need high heal amp to get the most out of T5.

With these proposed changes, barb DPS has to be through the roof to compensate for having to rely on T5s and SF pots. If they aren't melting mobs with their dps there will only be a slight increase in people playing barbs and these changes will be a lot of work for nothing.

[Monkey-Boy]

That would be more self healing with CSW pots. SF pots already heal for a lot with minimal investment. I think the complaint that "barbs are hard to heal" stems from when WF was still being played, FBs self damage that some didn't understand and the lack of needed defense resulting in more damage from mobs. 2 major issues are still not being addressed.

1. Potion healing. Even with heal amp in every core, there's no way CSW pots would still be viable outside of heroics. Tier 5s are on hit or expend Weapon Bonds. Players still will have to rely on penalty SF pots not finding it fun to be penalized to stay alive and fall behind in groups.

2. Defense. Very disappointed that barb DR can't be improved. Barbs lose big flavor. PRR would be the substitute, but barbs aren't getting much improvement there. I could understand reducing the heal amp in the trees if there was going to be a better PRR boost, but as front line melees taking on damage constantly, they will need high heal amp to get the most out of T5.

With these proposed changes, barb DPS has to be through the roof to compensate for having to rely on T5s and SF pots. If they aren't melting mobs with their dps there will only be a slight increase in people playing barbs and these changes will be a lot of work for nothing.

Just play in crusader.

[Severlin]

I strongly suspect that Berserker lost it's bonus HP when it lost the self-inflicted Frenzy damage.

It lost its bonus HP when it got an extra 25 Melee Power. The self-inflicted damage was a non-factor.

Sev~

[Takllin]

It lost its bonus HP when it got an extra 25 Melee Power. The self-inflicted damage was a non-factor.

Sev~

Is that also why it lost the Healing Amplification? Or is that a mistake that it was left off?

Also what about changing +4 CON to STR?

[Cetus]

(Holy Sword gives out both threat range and critical multiplier so it doesn't favor weapons with higher threat ranges in the same way.)

Sev~

I'm not sure what you mean here. The threat expansion component of holy sword provides the same benefit to any weapon it is used on. It just gives the same addition to threat range regardless of the weapon.

The multiplier component of holy sword does favor weapons with higher threat ranges in exactly the same way. The fact that it gives extra threat too has no bearing on what weapons the multiplier favors, since the extra threat bonus (+2 with improved critical feat) is a flat addition to whatever it is you are wielding (hell, it even works on bows).

[Severlin]

Is that also why it lost the Healing Amplification? Or is that a mistake that it was left off?

Yes.

Also what about changing +4 CON to STR?

We went with CON for the added Rage length and Fort saves.

Sev~

[Severlin]

I'm not sure what you mean here. The threat expansion component of holy sword provides the same benefit to any weapon it is used on. It just gives the same addition to threat range regardless of the weapon.

The multiplier component of holy sword does favor weapons with higher threat ranges in exactly the same way. The fact that it gives extra threat too has no bearing on what weapons the multiplier favors, since the extra threat bonus (+2 with improved critical feat) is a flat addition to whatever it is you are wielding.

Extra threat favors high multipliers, while extra multiplier favors higher ranged weapons. Since Holy Sword has both the ability as a whole doesn't dictate a specific weapon style. The ability ends up buffing all types of weapons (at least as base value) pretty much equally.

Sev~

[davmuzl]

Yes.

What exactly do you mean with "yes"?

Extra threat favors high multipliers, while extra multiplier favors higher ranged weapons. Since Holy Sword has both the ability as a whole doesn't dictate a specific weapon style. The ability ends up buffing all types of weapons (at least as base value) pretty much equally.

Sev~

It doesn't buff all types of weapons pretty much equally. It favors weapons that already have a good crit-profile and I would call that a specific weapon style.

I would actually not mind having frenzy self damage scale up with melee power just for flavor reason. Why should a barbarian suffer less from his self inflicted damage at high levels? But if that was the case there should be a different option to increase DPS and it might be a good idea to make the self damage only apply from one frenzy-ability and not both.

[Qhualor]

Just play in crusader.

That's a workaround for better self healing.. You do a lot more damage in FOTW.

[davmuzl]

That's a workaround for better self healing.. You do a lot more damage in FOTW.

With all the melee power scaling I don't see how any destiny will be able to keep up with LD. And we all know that crusader is not a real option for a raging barbarian.

[Takllin]

That's a workaround for better self healing.. You do a lot more damage in FOTW.

I highly doubt it FotW is more DPS than DC...

With all the melee power scaling I don't see how any destiny will be able to keep up with LD. And we all know that crusader is not a real option for a raging barbarian.

Crusader is a very good second option now, also how is it not a real option? I've been using it, and have a friend who is as well for a while now.

[Qhualor]

With all the melee power scaling I don't see how any destiny will be able to keep up with LD. And we all know that crusader is not a real option for a raging barbarian.

Some don't rage, but the draw for a barbarian in DC is Consecrated Ground.

LDs draw is Blitz for a barbarian. LD is still more tactical than DPS. FOTW has many abilities that give added benefits while raging. While LD isn't a bad melee destiny even for barbs, I see much higher damage numbers for a barb in FOTW.

[Qhualor]

I highly doubt it FotW is more DPS than DC...

Yeah, that's what I said.

[Grailhawk]

I highly doubt it FotW is more DPS than DC....

If there only means of making a target helpless is Overwhelming Force, then it probably is.