Barbarian - Frenzied Berserker Changes

[MeliCat]

Also for longer quests and raids. Insufficient rages and you may as well go a fighter or these days a pally.

Rage regen or my barb stays in mule land.

[Dreppo]

Like that horrible card game I can't think of the name of - when you start losing you are more likely to continue losing.

War?

[MeliCat]

War?

Canasta.

This update will continue the canasta barb. Which is fine if you're good at canasta.

I'm not so my barb will stay muled

[PermaBanned]

Rage regeneration? Did I miss this somewhere in the initial writeup? If so, why would this be lost - that would be an amazing upgrade.

I am 100% with Cetus on this. I didn't see any rage regen and feel that would be a go to for any true barb.

The regenerating Rages was a Frenzied Berserker Capstone addition {idea} that was floated by us yesterday. IMO, regenerating a Rage every 2 minutes really didn't make much sense as a Capstone in the tree that already has the Extra Rages, especially when it's the Capstone in a different tree that actually consumes Rages for something other than being Raged - so you could either spend them, or regenerate them, but not both.

I said then (and still think) Regenerating Rages would be a good tier 4 FB enhancement, thus requiring a deep investment to aquire in conjunction with Ravager's Rave expending Capstone.

[maddong]

We are considering changes based on player feedback:


~ The final core of Frenzied berserker would lose the Rage regeneration. Instead it would gain, in addition to the passive abilities and Storm's Eye, the ability:

"When Raging your melee attacks that roll a 20 do an extra 400 damage. This damage scales with 100% Melee Power."


~ The tier 5 Mutli-Selector would lose "The Perfect Rage" and gain the following as an alternate choice to Accelerated Metabolism.

"Raging Blows: While raging you gain +1[W] damage."

Sev~

I think the obvious barbarian build in this current system is capstone fb (41 ap) with tier 5 ravager for obscene healing (39 ap for blood rage, crit fury, crit rage, 18 core) on a dual wielding human. That does cost me the 60 human healing amp though because ap will be too tight (I think you are only down 40 vs capstone/core 3/core 3/human 60). I'm not sure if anything is worth dropping to pick up human versatility for 1 ap or not...

[PermaBanned]

I dislike the loss of rage regeneration. It penalises players who are slower and die more.

You're not losing it, you never had it

That said, lobby for it as a tier 4 Enhancement ^^

[MeliCat]

You're not losing it, you never had it

That said, lobby for it as a tier 4 Enhancement ^^

We had it for a brief period of time conceptually.

And yes my very first post on this matter. You guys though are the builders. Please articulate clearly the math and gameplay details why this is fairer and better.

[PermaBanned]

I think the obvious barbarian build in this current system is capstone fb (41 ap) with tier 5 ravager for obscene healing (39 ap for blood rage, crit fury, crit rage, 18 core) on a dual wielding human. That does cost me the 60 human healing amp though because ap will be too tight (I think you are only down 40 vs capstone/core 3/core 3/human 60). I'm not sure if anything is worth dropping to pick up human versatility for 1 ap or not...

Lol... The "obvious" build?

[PermaBanned]

We had it for a brief period of time conceptually.

And yes my very first post on this matter. You guys though are the builders. Please articulate clearly the math and gameplay details why this is fairer and better.

I'm not a math person, and fairer is too subjective. I just think it would be better as an (expensively) achievable enhancement for Ravagers - go ahead and keep it in the FB tree, would make a nice expenditure option in place of Wade In (IMO) - but without it I don't see the Ravager Capstone being good for anything other than "oh ****" moments; and as a FB Capstone it would be completely inaccessible to aspiring Visage users.

[Qhualor]

I dislike the loss of rage regeneration. It penalises players who are slower and die more.

Like that horrible card game I can't think of the name of - when you start losing you are more likely to continue losing.

Why Sev why? That was THE biggest thing for me.

We had it for a brief period of time conceptually.

And yes my very first post on this matter. You guys though are the builders. Please articulate clearly the math and gameplay details why this is fairer and better.

I would have to see a more convincing reason than this to try and push for it. a pure with 9 rages and its investments should be plenty to get from shrine to shrine. I admit to never doing Deathwyrn, FOT and epic Abbot but its my understanding at least 2 of those raids are not long. back in the day when people ran LOB, I struggled with my barb and her rages. I often ran out right before the end of the raid, even if I didn't die. yeah, it sucked to be on the same level as any old fighter but times have changed with longer duration of rages and shrines in raids since then. its going to boil down more to player skill, the pace of the group and investment in rages.

im not against rage regeneration. I just think it fits better in Ravager than FB and would be a nice little perk, but nothing more than that.

[DagazUlf]

But, we cannot let barbarian be the "king of dps" because they have never been the king of damage. Their place at the top must be carefully constrained so that it occurs in specific situations (when raging) and comes with sufficient risk (too little defenses and self healing) that players struggle to decide which character class to play because the choices are evenly matched after all the pros and cons are considered.

This is very, very accurate and I'm not seeing how these changes actually affect the core of what a barbarian should be. Everything I'm seeing with these enhancements is just far away from Barbarian and off in some kind of DDO-dreamland. Frankly, I find it disgusting to see this kind of crud bandied about on a class that is dear to many folks. This is just turning it into some kind of weird MMO character that is NOT a barbarian.

[Scrabbler]

Many people want the regenerating rages back. Here is a similar feature as an alternative. It is intentionally weaker so it can have lower prereqs and be reachable by more builds:

Always Angry: 1/1/1 AP, tier3 or tier4 in whatever tree. Activate this ability to enter a mode identical to Barbarian Rage in all ways, except you also get -6/-2/-0 Strength and critical damage. No cost or cooldown. Activating real Rage cancels this effect.

This way, people who've run out of Rage charges (or think they might run out later) have a way to activate key Barb combat features, at the cost of spending some AP and maybe gaining not as much Strength and damage as usual. Note that this would allow someone to keep Raging forever, but not have unlimited use of Visage of Terror. (He could get more Visage usage if he decides not to use Rages on buffs, though).

Ideally, that enhancement would be part of a multiselector so you can also choose to have +1% runspeed per Barb level (only works at over 40% hp) or +1 PRR per Barb level (only works at under 60% hp).

[maddong]

I'd just give 20 barbs the feat endless rage that let's you activate rage without expending one....

[MeliCat]

Shrine to shrine means not raiding in some cases and no long questing.

And as I said if you play slower or die you lose out with a fixed number of rages.

And if we are not talking about barbarians being raged we are not talking about barbarians. It's rage or go home.

[MeliCat]

I'd just give 20 barbs the feat endless rage that let's you activate rage without expending one....

No because having sufficient rages let is part of the skill of playing one. They are meant to be very very powerful. They are the main source of a barbarian's extraordinary power.

If you use them up too quickly (sigh. Like you die a lot) you're screwed. Because a barbarian without rage is a just a bad fighter.

Regenerating slowly over time it would still be possible to run out of rages for a period of time (unexpected deaths or having to dismiss for some reason) but least you can just wait a bit and get them back instead of being useless for the rest of the raid/quest or until the next shrine.

[lyrecono]

We are considering changes based on player feedback:


~ The final core of Frenzied berserker would lose the Rage regeneration. Instead it would gain, in addition to the passive abilities and Storm's Eye, the ability:
storm eye looks bad on paper and doesn't work in reality, you drop below 50%hp in EE in no time, due to lack in defence (ramp up the prr&mrr as sugested a few times by a few people).
You have a melee class here that, acording to the people who build it, should be in the thick of things, has a capstone that adds damage that gets taken away in 2 to 3 hits, something they can't avoid, , what good are those glancing blow feats and mad munitions if the capstone basicly advices you to fight 1 mob constantly drinking pots to avoid loosing said capstone

"When Raging your melee attacks that roll a 20 do an extra 400 damage. This damage scales with 100% Melee Power."
So basicly the same thing you mentioned before in different words, if it doesn't multiply with crits this is meh if trying to solo a EE (red/orange/normal) mob, you still can't kill it fast enough, they have too much hp


~ The tier 5 Mutli-Selector would lose "The Perfect Rage" and gain the following as an alternate choice to Accelerated Metabolism.

"Raging Blows: While raging you gain +1[W] damage."
Wow, another d8/d10 whille swinging, so if i understand correctly, the bard gained attack speed, doublestrike and got to add the same stat(of his own choice) mod as a damage mod, the paladins holy sword spell allone gives more then that and at lv 14..... what makes this "raging blows" stand out as the "dps" option?

Sev~

why should any barb stay pure, or in fb? with 2 levels of fighter he atleast gains a small% to stay alive long enogh to aply the damage

[Qhualor]

No because having sufficient rages let is part of the skill of playing one. They are meant to be very very powerful. They are the main source of a barbarian's extraordinary power.

If you use them up too quickly (sigh. Like you die a lot) you're screwed. Because a barbarian without rage is a just a bad fighter.

Regenerating slowly over time it would still be possible to run out of rages for a period of time (unexpected deaths or having to dismiss for some reason) but least you can just wait a bit and get them back instead of being useless for the rest of the raid/quest or until the next shrine.

the rage regeneration that was proposed to us was 1 rage every 120 seconds. considering rages can last at minimum for 5 minutes with decent Con and investment in Extend and guessing as high as ~8 minutes, you would have to be dying a lot or dismissing rages for umd purposes.

to be honest, I see you making a case for the casuals rather than making a case for a productive use to have regenerating rages. Visage of Terror is one good reason to have them, but I could see to a lesser degree a mob roundup similar to a caster doing the same thing.

[MeliCat]

the rage regeneration that was proposed to us was 1 rage every 120 seconds. considering rages can last at minimum for 5 minutes with decent Con and investment in Extend and guessing as high as ~8 minutes, you would have to be dying a lot or dismissing rages for umd purposes.

to be honest, I see you making a case for the casuals rather than making a case for a productive use to have regenerating rages. Visage of Terror is one good reason to have them, but I could see to a lesser degree a mob roundup similar to a caster doing the same thing.

Yes it benefits casuals with no detriment to top players. Hence my Canasta example. And yes dying a lot. Or else failing to gear or build for a maximum number of rages.

To my mind very slowly regenerating rages is more in tune with the class than this emphasis on other things that make them more like a generic tank and less dps.

[Cetus]

Rages should regenerate like 1 every 10 minutes or something. We may be overthinking this. The point here is to make it impossible for a barbarian to be stuck without rages if he or she happens to die a lot for whatever reason, and there happens to not be a shrine in sight.

[Qhualor]

Rages should regenerate like 1 every 10 minutes or something. We may be overthinking this. The point here is to make it impossible for a barbarian to be stuck without rages if he or she happens to die a lot for whatever reason, and there happens to not be a shrine in sight.

if we were to have regeneration, I was thinking the same thing. 10 minutes seems good, just not in FB though. if its too OP in Ravager than that leaves OS. doesn't seem right to be there though, but I could live with it.