Barbarian Occult Slayer possible SR capstone change, etc.

[XxJFGxX]

I was reading bits and pieces for the possible changes to Barbarian Occult Slayer such as having "Knock Out" having a save, the possible change to the capstone to removed the con score to SR for MRR.

This is a video from Yellobeard of Orien server discussing the subject and why it is a terrible idea to change the capstone.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MEtd7lP1ZRQ

I personally would like to see the Occult Slayer capstone keep the con to SR as well add con mod to additional MRR. Also it would be fitting for a Barbarian Occult Slayer at level 18 (pure class) to have a mantle of invulnerability instead of the force ward that hasn't work since it was released in the tree.

[Scrabbler]

This is a video from Yellobeard of Orien server discussing the subject and why it is a terrible idea to change the capstone.

1. Voiceover on a video is a bad way to advocate for a design. Asking someone to spend 7 minutes listening when you weren't willing to spend 7 minutes typing it out...

2. The argument in the video is as follows: "If your Constitution is very high, then OS capstone can be very helpful against some threats. Therefore OS capstone should not be changed."

3. Nothing in the video supports the idea that OS capstone should not be changed. The criteria for changing it should be whether it's a good capstone and a good design, not whether it can possibly be useful.

4. In this case, it is clear that the OS capstone does need to be changed, because it is indefensible for Barbarians to get SR above 70 while Monks, Clerics, and all other classes are stuck with SR below 40. If they're going to have a game design where Barbarians, Monks, Drow, and Cleric spells can all provide SR, then they need to do it so that those characters get SR numbers within 20 of each other.

[jjflanigan]

1. Voiceover on a video is a bad way to advocate for a design. Asking someone to spend 7 minutes listening when you weren't willing to spend 7 minutes typing it out...

2. The argument in the video is as follows: "If your Constitution is very high, then OS capstone can be very helpful against some threats. Therefore OS capstone should not be changed."

3. Nothing in the video supports the idea that OS capstone should not be changed. The criteria for changing it should be whether it's a good capstone and a good design, not whether it can possibly be useful.

4. In this case, it is clear that the OS capstone does need to be changed, because it is indefensible for Barbarians to get SR above 70 while Monks, Clerics, and all other classes are stuck with SR below 40. If they're going to have a game design where Barbarians, Monks, Drow, and Cleric spells can all provide SR, then they need to do it so that those characters get SR numbers within 20 of each other.

I vehemently disagree with your #4, just because multiple classes can do the same thing does not mean they should be able to do it to the same degree. Each of those other classes that can provide SR boosts also have different huge benefits that barbarians do not have. Unless you want to give barbarians the same self-healing options as a cleric (or even just a monk), then using the "everyone should be balanced for this ability" is a bit out of touch in my opinion.

Each class should have areas where they are obviously better than other classes and areas where they are obviously worse. I'd hate to see class choice come down to just "flavor"

-JJ

[Vargouille]

instead of the force ward that hasn't work since it was released in the tree.

As far as our testing has determined, Force Ward (avoiding Force damage sometimes) works properly, but the feedback is unfortunately poor -- you don't get informed when the damage is avoided. This functions similarly to Shield Deflection.

If there's something different that you believe is a problem, we are unaware of the issue or the details.

[Scrabbler]

I vehemently disagree with your #4, just because multiple classes can do the same thing does not mean they should be able to do it to the same degree.

Nothing I wrote suggests that I think different classes should be able to do something to the same degree.

However, it is stupid to give Barbarians 70+ SR while other classes have under 40. That means that the OS Barbarians are 0% fail while Monks are 0% succeed. If they wanted Monks and Drow to have a 0% chance of SR working, then they shouldn't have given them any SR in the first place.

If you want to look at it from a class balance perspective and say that Barbarians deserve a powerful defense in the OS capstone because the class is so weak in other ways, that's fine... but giving them more than 40 more SR than anyone else can get is not the way to do it. If the possible SR numbers are going to be so different between different classes, then they shouldn't both be using the SR system: change one or both of the classes to have some other kind of defense against magic.

Additionally, it is indefensible that the OS capstone is worthless for Barbarians who don't prioritize Constitution over Strength (which practically means it only works for Dwarf builds with Throw Your Weight)

Each class should have areas where they are obviously better than other classes and areas where they are obviously worse.

It is arguably acceptable for OS Barbarians to have better SR than any other class. But there is no way it can be alright that they are 100% successful against enemy spells where every non-Occult Slayer is 100% fail.


PS. As a historical note, the reason Occult Slayer capstone gives you SR equal to Constitution is not because the designer thought it was a good idea. He wanted a moderate stacking SR bonus, but couldn't figure out how to program that.

[jjflanigan]

I'll agree that it stinks that the capstone is not good for non con-stacked barbarians, but there are two other trees and a lot of other abilities that are great for them still. Most classes have capstones in at least one tree that aren't great unless you are built a specific way.

I will concede that, if true, the 100% success vs 100% fail is bad form ( I've not seen enough myself to know if that is a bit of hyperbole or not, so forgive my ignorance in that regard). However, I would not have a problem with a gap even as large as 95% vs 10%. Mathematically speaking, monks and clerics have infinitely more native self-healing than barbarians, so barbarians being able to get massively better spell resistance seems fairly well balanced.

Point of information; I barely play barbarian, it's not really my play style, but I do try to keep abreast of the happenings in all the classes because I like learning about my fellow players. I only say that to clarify that I'm not trying to argue to "keep my cookie", I just like that the OS barbarian can get a really neat form of defense that others are unable to achieve.

-JJ

[Fennario]

Can you link where you see this change? I can't seem to find it. From what I've read it seems that the SR capstone will still work as it has with a few other goodies thrown in:

Mind Over Magic: (1 AP, Barbarian Level 20) You gain a bonus to your Spell Resistance equal to your Constitution score. Passive: You gain +4 Constitution. You gain +10 Magical Resistance Rating, +150 hit points and +40 healing amplification.

Hopefully this is the way it will go live because if it changes it will kill my dwarf Con/SR build. So put me down for a vote to keep the Con bonus as is.

[depositbox]

1. Voiceover on a video is a bad way to advocate for a design. Asking someone to spend 7 minutes listening when you weren't willing to spend 7 minutes typing it out...
That isnt OP. The guy from video posts here on another name
2. The argument in the video is as follows: "If your Constitution is very high, then OS capstone can be very helpful against some threats. Therefore OS capstone should not be changed."
A niche build that takes dedicated race and stats to build properly should stay as is.
3. Nothing in the video supports the idea that OS capstone should not be changed. The criteria for changing it should be whether it's a good capstone and a good design, not whether it can possibly be useful.
It is good. Works great and useful niche.
4. In this case, it is clear that the OS capstone does need to be changed, because it is indefensible for Barbarians to get SR above 70 while Monks, Clerics, and all other classes are stuck with SR below 40. If they're going to have a game design where Barbarians, Monks, Drow, and Cleric spells can all provide SR, then they need to do it so that those characters get SR numbers within 20 of each other.

It is a barbs only way to have a form of working saves. Other classes do not have the limitations that barbs do. it is clear that the OS capstone does not need to change, because it is very defensible for barbs to get sr 70 while other classes can get saves with pally splashes, better healing, evasion, incorp, faster movement, higher dodge, higher ac. The other classes dont have the same problems that barbs do against magic. That is what OSlayers do. They slay magic. I mean, should they change the name to semi occult slayers that sometime may if lucky slay magic?

Answers in red.

[Scrabbler]

I'll agree that it stinks that the capstone is not good for non con-stacked barbarians, but there are two other trees and a lot of other abilities that are great for them still.

Is that a joke? Occult Slayer is the only Barbarian capstone that's arguably worth spending 1 AP.

I will concede that, if true, the 100% success vs 100% fail is bad form ( I've not seen enough myself to know if that is a bit of hyperbole or not, so forgive my ignorance in that regard).

38 + d20 is 39-58, while 73+d20 is 74-93. There is no overlap between those ranges.

However, I would not have a problem with a gap even as large as 95% vs 10%. Mathematically speaking, monks and clerics have infinitely more native self-healing than barbarians, so barbarians being able to get massively better spell resistance seems fairly well balanced.

I already addressed the class balance perspective, but once again: Yes, giving Barbarians a special strong defense in a capstone could be appropriate for balance, but breaking the SR mechanic is not the right way to do that.

Can you link where you see this change? I can't seem to find it.

Players have suggested making changes like this. A developer did too, but that was over a year ago and the current dev might not have even met him.

[jjflanigan]

Is that a joke? Occult Slayer is the only Barbarian capstone that's arguably worth spending 1 AP.

Ummm... I was just agreeing with exactly what you said there about OS only being good if you prioritize constitution, chief...

Additionally, it is indefensible that the OS capstone is worthless for Barbarians who don't prioritize Constitution over Strength (which practically means it only works for Dwarf builds with Throw Your Weight)

Also, I said "trees" not "capstones" when I stated having other things that are great aside from OS.

-JJ

[FestusHood]

I had a drow paladin/monk that had sr in the 60's when running in grandmaster of flowers. That was without making any special effort toward it at all, just a side effect.

A barb would have to be pure, probably a dwarf, and spend enough points in occult slayer to get the capstone. I don't see the problem.

I wonder if a spell resistance item or the cleric spell would stack with innate sr? I never thought to test it.