Potential changes to healing amplification

[EllisDee37]

The cases aren't parallel. Dodge bonuses were additive before. Heal amp is currently multiplicative.

Good point.

I'm fuzzy on energy absorption. Does it still stack multiplicatively, or did they change it to non-stacking?

[cru121]

how will warforged be handled? If they become additive as well, they will become a prime heal amp race:
50 base +20 +20 +20 enhancements => 1.1, third best after humans and half elfs.

I recommend they keep their x 0.5 multiplicative penalty. So that they will be at 0.5 * (100+ 3x20 enhs + gear + stuff).
Bladeforged should be then 0.45 * (100 + stuff).

[Eth]

Shroud of the ardent and iron mitts disagree

Was more thinking of augments than items and different values than 10/20/30

[Glascanon]

Good point.

I'm fuzzy on energy absorption. Does it still stack multiplicatively, or did they change it to non-stacking?

Concidering about the last changes and the ongoing changes they plan about the healing amp they probably going to make Energy Absorption stack additively too in the future.

So if i have 150% energy absorption will i get healed then by 50% of the damage and will that heal stack with the 300% healing amp buff?

Cuz that will make the non evasion builds work better in compare with evasion builds.

If the devs want to make everything equal why don´t they just give us an godmode buff on our ship and lower every mob hp to 1?

Everyone can do EE then. Even a ********. Mission complete!

I guess it is less complex to program that but with the same result.

Another idea would be to add a window in front of the quest 4 ppl who are not able to runn EE to choose a lower difficulty. Oh wait... we alreddy have that...

[Robbenklopper]

.... We’d also like to give Barbarians lots of Healing Amplification as part of the Barbarian pass, but it just isn’t possible with our current multiplicative model. ...
Sev~

If you´re asking for my okay to pull 5 dozen programmers right away from high-school to work on it day and night in a shower-free 24/7 pizza-hut bunker far away from the daylight, you have it!

[TPICKRELL]

how will warforged be handled? If they become additive as well, they will become a prime heal amp race:
50 base +20 +20 +20 enhancements => 1.1, third best after humans and half elfs.

I recommend they keep their x 0.5 multiplicative penalty. So that they will be at 0.5 * (100+ 3x20 enhs + gear + stuff).
Bladeforged should be then 0.45 * (100 + stuff).

The WF Healers friends are already additive(they get added to base before the multipliers) so I see no reason why they would be doubled in the new system. Doubling the additive bonuses without doubling the penalty is unlikely, and doubling the penalty would result in WF getting 0 positive healing until they can take the healers friend enhancements. None of that seems like a viable option to me.

Also, making WF only get 50% of the power from all HAmp sources would ensure that only flavor builds are ever WF Melee. Anyone leaning towards WF melee would be pretty much forced into BladeForged Repair SLA builds. That's too strong a trend already, so it should not be locked in by a change like this.

I hope they tell us what they are thinking soon, but I strongly encourage them to make WF Melee a competitive option again by simply converting the penatly to -50 HAmp "power" and the WF Friends to +10 Hamp "power" each. That makes a WF run at a penalty of -50 to -20 HAmp power depending on how many Healer's Friends enhancements are taken. A significant but not insurmountable penalty.

[cru121]

I hope they tell us what they are thinking soon, but I strongly encourage them to make WF Melee a competitive option again by simply converting the penatly to -50 HAmp "power" and the WF Friends to +10 Hamp "power" each. That makes a WF run at a penalty of -50 to -20 HAmp power depending on how many Healer's Friends enhancements are taken. A significant but not insurmountable penalty.

This would mean that simple ship buff and 6 AP would grant WF full heals. Not sure if this is good or bad, but getting positive heal amp for machines would be much easier.

Also interested to hear plans for construct essence feat.

[DarthCaedus]

Keep it simple. Just have all existing and future healing amp items provide healing and repair amp. Yes this might be an overly nice thing for bladeforged and warforged but honestly they rarely rely on both. They are usually self-healing with repairs or focus solely on fleshy healing.

At first I thought this was another lol nerf like divine grace, but I don't think the proposed healing amp changes will drive people away.

[MangLord]

If healing amp changes are well considered and handled delicately, like the changes to melee power, it could work very well. I've been very pleased with the current melee power system. Masters Blitz was handled very well, and I barely notice a difference in my ranger's furyshot damage.

On the other hand, if the proposed changes require us to wear multiple pieces of gear to equal what we can currently get with just a pair of PDK Gauntlets or Iron Mitts, then I'm not so sure about it. On one hand, a capped character with several fully unlocked Orchard items and plenty of green slots to spare wouldn't have much of an issue if they can stack several together. This can potentially make for a larger burden on a lower level epic without a wealth of green slots to pack full of gems. That being said, I feel like spellpower rubies need to be changed from ruby to sapphire, perhaps a new green-slot only emerald, or red augment slots on wearables that can only be slotted with spellpower gems. My lvl 28 ranger is overflowing with green and blue slots on nearly every item and half of them are empty for lack of anything really interesting after PRR, stat boosts and feather fall. He wears an EE Shamanic Fetish, and it works pretty well, but devotion spellpower is a very difficult thing to slot if your trinket is occupied with something else. It should be a sapphire since it's a defensive effect and, at least on my builds, would loosen up my gear loadout if I'm not stuck with a Shamanic Fetish forever.

That leads into my next question, which is how is this going to stack with positive spellpower and heal skill? Why do we have several systems all working to increase green numbers rolling over our heads? Would it be possible to do away with the proposed healing amp nonsense and have Heal (or repair) skill count for more, so perhaps a +20 Heal/Repair gem would work similarly to a 20% healing amp, and ranks in the skill would increase the benefit on a parallel to PRR and the level of healing amplification that it provides? It's certainly possible to invest a decent amount of points into Heal after 20 levels, even off-class. The only problem with this is that a player would have to reincarnate to reinvest skillpoints in Heal/Repair if it suddenly becomes tremendously important.

It seems to that more often than not, proposed changes simply add more numbers and modifiers to the pile of stuff we need to pay attention to and add together to create a single, workable effect. I feel like the multitude of various systems are already complicated enough that 80% of the player base doesn't understand them well enough to make proper use of their resources, and it can be a real strain on a limited amount of gear slots when you add in yet another number to an important system that everyone needs. If you're going to change H-Amp from a multiplicative effect to a static number, then you may as well condense it into either Devotion or a more effective return on investment in Heal skill. In my opinion, that would be the more logical way to go since everyone has access to the skill, but there isn't much of a draw for putting ranks in it. Heal skill could be the new UMD. LOL.

Seriously though...you guys really need to think about streamlining and reigning it in with the additive systems. Heaping more toppings on a burger doesn't necessarily make it taste better, as an analogy, and an overly complex game probably isn't a huge draw to new players.

[Uska]

Just seems to me that people who didn't bother with it before because they couldn't squeeze in enough will do so,now because they will be able to get a decent amount in one slot so the overpowered builds will be more so and a majority of hamp builds might be slightly buffed and a few specialized builds will be nerfed seems like the whole thing is a lot of make work and a waste of time just to appear as if they are doing something and I feel the time could be better spent

[Blivit]

I have played a healing-amp focused, handwrap-wielding paladin/monk for several years now, since shortly after the original Solar Phoenix build was posted in the forums. It is my favorite out of all my toons. Of course, I have quite a keen interest in this discussion, and will be sad to see my healing amp take a substantial hit with the proposed new changes. However, despite any selfish bias I have against these changes, I do think that they are a good idea. Let me explain.

The multiplicative healing amp system never made much sense to me. It is the only system that multiplies effects, and the stacking rules were also strange, especially when it came to enhancements (some of which may still be inconsistant with whether they add or multiply within-tree, I'm not sure). Additive healing amp makes A LOT more sense, especially given the current nature of additive PRR/MRR. From purely a rules-that-make-sense perspective, additive healing amp is a good idea.

Switching to additive, but doubling the existing values, seems like a reasonable compromise to me, between not buffing low amounts of healing amp overly much, while not nerfing excessive amounts of healing amp (such as for rare healing-amp focused builds like mine) overly much. Increasing the existing healing amp values more than 2x would buff the low-healing amp builds too much, while decreasing it more would nerf the high-healing amp builds too much. Although I will take a hit of maybe 150-200 healing amp, and I will be quite unhappy about it, it still won't be the end of the world for my build.

When MoTU came out, I think I had around 400 healing amp. As I played through the content, I was able to solo all of Epic Normal without too much difficulty, and although Epic Hard could take a while due to the DPS I had saccrificed for the sake of high healing amp, I was still able to solo most of the Epic Hard content (Breaking the Ranks had too many mobs, and What Goes Up was too much of a slog by the time I got to the top of the quest). I did this while farming epic destinies, so I generally wasn't in any destiny that would give me additional healing amp, nor did I have enough fate points to have a 3rd level twist to twist in more healing amp at the time. Given my experiences, since around 400 healing amp was enough for me in ENorm and EHard difficulties, and the new system works out to not starting to nerf healing amp until above around 400, high healing amp builds will still be about as viable in ENorm and EHard content after the change as they are now.

My build always had difficulty in Epic Elite, due to the massive amount of damage enemies deal, and having horrible AC, dodge, and PRR. This build was designed back in the days when original Epic first came out, when AC was largely useless due to insane enemy to-hit scaling, dodge didn't generally stack very high, and PRR didn't even exist. Back then, high healing amp with fists of light, healing ki, and self heals was one of the best ways to "soak" damage and increase self-sufficiency. This has all changed with the current Epic Elite, where AC, dodge, and PRR have become much more useful, and the enemies hit so hard that having low values of those, even with high healing amp, just doesn't work so well anymore, especially with the DPS that we have to give up. Since builds like mine already have some serious issues in EElite, then, relatively speaking, losing a good chunk of healing amp still isn't going to make things THAT much worse than they already are.

So, to summarize thus far: most builds will get buffed, and high healing amp builds are so rare that few builds will get nerfed. The new additive system makes a lot more sense, rules-wise, than the old multiplicative system, and may allow for easier addition of more healing amp in the future without worrying about balance issues as much. High healing amp builds will still be just fine in ENorm and EHard, and they won't be THAT much worse in EElite, relatively speaking, since they already have serious issues in EElite to begin with. "The Greater Good" is clearly winning out here, versus the not-build-breaking harm to our rare high healing amp builds.

HOWEVER, that doesn't mean I don't want to lose my high healing amp without a fight! I do have a few suggestions as to changes that could be made to continue to allow for very high healing amps without overly buffing those builds that would otherwise have low healing amp. I have not read all of the posts in this thread, so I am sorry if I am about to repeat anything that has already been covered sufficiently:

1) It has already been suggested that there be new healing amp augments, and I am assuming that this is likely to be implemented eventually in the new system. Given that +20 (now to be +40) is available at level 16 on Dragontouched armor, and +30 (now to be +60) is available at level 20 on gloves/gauntets, I would like to see even higher (stacking) augments available at levels 24 and 28. Maybe +60 in the new system at level 24, and +80 at level 28? Or something similar? Thus, at high character levels, we could still gain back some of our lost high healing amp by sacrificing a few augment slots. For those builds where high healing amp is not such a high priority, they might chose to run with a one or two large high level healing amp augments, thus freeing up additional slots for other non-healing amp effects that they would value more.

2) An early post in this thread by jtow, the only other active palymonk I have met on the Argonesson server, expressed concern that all the time we have put into paladin past lives will now be pretty much entirely wasted. Three paladin lives would, under the new system, give you 3x10 = +30 healing amp. If you had 400 healing amp, that would bring it to only 430, which is a very small increase given the huge amount of time it takes to build up three past paladin lives. That's not even enough to increase the amount of healing from fists of light. If any new larger augments are implemented, then a single high level augment would be more beneficial than THREE past paladin lives. That just doesn't seem right to me. The recent paladin enhancement pass, as well as the upcoming nerf to Divine Grace, was supposed to encourage people to take more paladin levels than before. Well, now that paladin past lives aren't going to mean as much, there won't be as much of a reason to take more paladin levels than any other class if you are planning to TR in the future. I would like to propose that paladin past lives be buffed more than the 2x that all the other sources are getting. A past life is a huge time investment, and it should count for something, especially if you have three of them. Additional buffs to paladin past lives won't buff most builds, since they won't have many paladin past lives (if any), will help those of us who really need the high healing amp for our builds, and will encourage people to take more paladin levels or even be pure paladins, which was ostensibly the point of all the paladin changes made in U23.

3) A good portion of the healing in high healing amp builds, particularly in harder Epic levels where the enemies don't die so quickly, is from Fists of Light. Obscenely high healing amp is required to scale that measly 1d2 heal per hit into something more useful, such as 4's and 8's, 5's and 10's, or higher. As others have suggested in this thread, it would be nice if fists of light scaled somehow with monk level. With how absurdly Epic content scales these days, a 1d2 heal from fists of light just isn't very useful anymore For those vocal people who are claiming that monks are already overpowered, I am going to assume that much of that is directed towards monkchers? Monkchers would not benefit from changing fists of light to scale with monk level, since it only works with melee.

I thank you for making it this far in my (quite lengthy) post. I hope that this has provided some useful (and not too negative/upsetting) perspective and feedback from a long-time palymonk.

[Oberon_Shrader]

I'd first like to say that I really like the new system. Additive with values is so much easier to understand.

One question I have is: do these values represent a percentage increase like melee or spell power does? That is, is +10 Healing Amp = +10% Healing Amp in the new system?

If so, why double the values on items at all?

I think this is an opportunity for Turbine to create a "soft" nerf. Since self-healing has gotten so out of hand, why support this? It's counter to the MMORPG model, which should encourage grouping and teamwork.

If you want more players to join/stay in DDO, you need to make it welcoming for them and promoting solo play is not welcoming to noobs.

Anyway, just my 2 CP.

[bash761]

just checked the wiki and as it stands there is 2 repair amp items + the 20% we can get from enh for a total of 40% and yet fleshys can get massive amounts of heal amp from reading this thread in comparison. 1 of which means u need to be a bladeforged for 10% and shadow scale docent for another 10%. i know warforged can change their repairs to heals at lower percentage rate but isnt that kind of really restricting their options for healing.

get healers friend for -20% effectiveness or repair for +20% seems kinda dumb and yet i see my repair crit damage pots do 20pts of health sort of dumb when health pools can be way more than 20 hp which then means u either need to be arcane/bladeforged. or suck up the massive total loss of healing(or buy pots from DDO store). since 1 repair crit damage pot will heal for 20 hp and store bought atleast 130+ticks.

cant we have a few more items with repair amp on them please so our pots atleast are some use ( for toons without recon/ ed's with coocon twisted). this seems fair as some of these numbers are going upto +400% healing for fleshys and +40% repair for warforged.

[MangLord]

My build always had difficulty in Epic Elite, due to the massive amount of damage enemies deal, and having horrible AC, dodge, and PRR. This build was designed back in the days when original Epic first came out, when AC was largely useless due to insane enemy to-hit scaling, dodge didn't generally stack very high, and PRR didn't even exist. Back then, high healing amp with fists of light, healing ki, and self heals was one of the best ways to "soak" damage and increase self-sufficiency. This has all changed with the current Epic Elite, where AC, dodge, and PRR have become much more useful, and the enemies hit so hard that having low values of those, even with high healing amp, just doesn't work so well anymore, especially with the DPS that we have to give up. Since builds like mine already have some serious issues in EElite, then, relatively speaking, losing a good chunk of healing amp still isn't going to make things THAT much worse than they already are.

I was always curious about what a build had to sacrifice in order to gain high levels of healing amp. Thanks for sharing. It would be interesting if a healer-specced cleric could choose to get an outgoing healing amp effect, so they can get a bit more mileage out of mass cures.

I just hit level 20 with my swashbuckler bard, and I'm finding that the combination of dodge/blur/ghostly and high DPS is really well suited for epic levels. Not a big revelation there, but a modest level of healing will go a long way if you can kill enemies quickly. My healing investment is a pair of PDK gauntlets (30% hamp) the 10% hamp from Harper tree, and a crafted +66 Devotion ring with +13 Heal. I did a small test, just to see what each part adds to the green number as I was crafting the ring, and here's my small sample results.
I was casting Cure Critical Wounds with Empower Healing feat on it. I didn't have a healing lore item on.
No ring average- 129.6 (low 104/high 151)
+66 Devotion- 169 (low 145/high 188)
Devotion with +13 heal skill - 183.5 (low 171/high 206)

The Heal skill seems to add considerably more to a healing spell than I expected. I'd always put extra points into the skill when I could, assuming it had to have some benefit, but I didn't expect so much.

[Angelic-council]

Basically, I currently have 20 heal amp on my human, and it would become 40% after the update resulting in 100% Boost. I get that part and any other changes that there will be.. However, please keep it clean and simple: don't let other players to easily achieve high amp, for the sake of divine class.

[bsquishwizzy]

Greetings,

Today we want to discuss healing amplification. Our goal is to adjust it to be additive rather than multiplicative, in a way that benefits many players while minimizing the “nerf” to current players, particularly players who have created builds that extend into the extreme ranges of the current Healing Amplification system. We realize that any additive system will impact some players who are stacking Healing Amplification to the extreme, but in many cases this will have a beneficial or neutral impact to builds.

Why change it? We'd like introduce new sources of healing amplification on new items, but the team has been reluctant to do so with the current system because it is too powerful when stacked extremely high, and not good enough in small doses. With these changes we could add more items with healing amplification. We’d also like to give Barbarians lots of Healing Amplification as part of the Barbarian pass, but it just isn’t possible with our current multiplicative model.

Our current plan is to make Healing Amplification an additive rating and, to make it more effective in smaller doses, double the current values on enhancements and other sources of Healing Amplification. Healing Amplification would become a rating so it works just like Melee Power, Ranged Power and Spellpower. That is, Healing Amplification rating increases all healing by (100 + Rating) / 100. This would keep the game systems consistent. Repair Amplification would work the same, as well as values that allowed Pale Masters to heal with Negative Energy healing.

The current percentage values would be converted into a rating and then, to keep Healing Amplification competitive, the rating would be doubled. 10% Healing Amplification would become a rating of 20. 20% Healing Amplification would become a rating of 40.

To summarize:

~ Healing Amplication is turned into a rating which is additive.
~ Sources of Healing Amplication converted to an integer value and doubled.

As an example, the Human enhancement Improved Recovery would now give +20 Healing Amplification. If you also took the Paladin enhancement Vigor of Life from the Knight of the Chalice tree, it would provide +20 Healing Amplification for a total of 40. In this new case the character would increase all healing by a multiplier of 1.4 instead of a multiplier of 1.21.

Thus in smaller amounts players would see a buff.

Ok, I realize I’m coming in at the tail-end of this here, but here is my response:

Absolutely, positively NO! No, no, no, no, no…no!

Don’t do it. It’s idiotic.

Just because a few players take one aspect of the game, and take it to the extreme DOES NOT MEAN that this needs to be “fixed.” It is a totally, absurdly, absolutely false premise under which to work.

Healing amp requires both gear and enhancements (mainly racial) to get to this type of “extreme” situation. Many will not go the routes they need to go in order to get to this area, mainly because they have to gimp themselves in other areas in order to obtain this capability.

A paladin’s best, mainstay feature is the fact that with healing amp (racial and/or PrE) he/she could turn CSW into a workable self-healing solution at higher levels. What you are proposing is basically undercutting gains on a Paladin with the last update where self-healing is involved.

Secondly – and this is why I am so adamant about saying no – is that you have done VIRTUALLY NOTHING about the heal skill, healing kits, amplifying healing potions and/or wands. Likewise, at upper levels, you’ve basically creates a huge frickin’ obstacle for classes like pure Fighters and Barbarians to self-heal without something like Silver Flame pots (hard to get), UMD (not feasible for a Fighter in many regards), or multi-classing.

Likewise, heal and repair kits are – as someone else best described them – “pocket lint.” They serve no real purpose in the game.

If you want to “fix” healing amp in this regard – making it additive as opposed to multiplicative – then you should do an overhaul of the healing in general, fix the useless parts, stop patching stuff with new potions that are near impossible for newer players to get, and provide a sensible solution to the problem; as opposed to another band-aid that people “feel” should be done because it is “unfair” that some have “exploited” a system. It’s a few…not a majority…and it is not worth bringing the hammer down in this manner.

Healing in general is about as borked as you can get. How about we don’t bork it any further? M’kay?

[Lonnbeimnech]

just checked the wiki and as it stands there is 2 repair amp items + the 20% we can get from enh for a total of 40% and yet fleshys can get massive amounts of heal amp from reading this thread in comparison. 1 of which means u need to be a bladeforged for 10% and shadow scale docent for another 10%. i know warforged can change their repairs to heals at lower percentage rate but isnt that kind of really restricting their options for healing.

get healers friend for -20% effectiveness or repair for +20% seems kinda dumb and yet i see my repair crit damage pots do 20pts of health sort of dumb when health pools can be way more than 20 hp which then means u either need to be arcane/bladeforged. or suck up the massive total loss of healing(or buy pots from DDO store). since 1 repair crit damage pot will heal for 20 hp and store bought atleast 130+ticks.

cant we have a few more items with repair amp on them please so our pots atleast are some use ( for toons without recon/ ed's with coocon twisted). this seems fair as some of these numbers are going upto +400% healing for fleshys and +40% repair for warforged.

But heal spells only gain half power from positive spell power. Repair spells get full benefit from repair spell power. So if they are going to add as many sources of repair amp, then they either need to nerf repair spell power, or un nerf positive spell power.

[Miow]

Severlin? You still out there or are you "out" there just wondering...

[Qhualor]

But heal spells only gain half power from positive spell power. Repair spells get full benefit from repair spell power. So if they are going to add as many sources of repair amp, then they either need to nerf repair spell power, or un nerf positive spell power.

Casters benefit from repairs a lot more than melees. There needs to be a bigger repair amp boost and more sources for melees while not boosting casters more. The question is, how do you do that?

[Lonnbeimnech]

Casters benefit from repairs a lot more than melees. There needs to be a bigger repair amp boost and more sources for melees while not boosting casters more. The question is, how do you do that?

How about creating an iconic with a racial ability that lets them cast the repair spell, where fleshie melees have to make due with cure serious wounds and give up a twist of fate slot for cocoon. This way with just a repair augment slotted in a weapon they would have been usign anyway, they can heal to full with one click. Where the fleshie has to slot heal amp and devotion item, to be able to heal 1/4 of his hp per click.