Long Swords and WSS vs Short Swords

[Saekee]

hi all,
I am putting together a build for my next life that will be dex-based for stealth testing and development, 9 monk 6 wiz 5 rogue. I am debating whether I should invest in Whirling Steel Strike or not. WSS is stupidly costly--two feats wasted for it (I will take Elf for Long sword profiency), but seems to offer a broader range of weapons. Note: I will note be using Thunderforged weapons; this will not be an 'end-game' build but one as part of a longer journey. Probably will run in Shadowdancer.

Pros, or Why I would go with WSS:
IC: Slashing seems more useful because one of the strongest blades I can wield is the Brush Hook at 19-20/3. Also I just recently made an EMG (can't tell you the joy...could even take knife specialization and make it a 15-20/3 weapon) which allows me to remain centered as a monk. Since I am going IC: Slashing, I can then apply that to long swords and have a broader set of weapons to use. (If I went drow, I do not have the AP to put in the drow tree for Xendrick damage bonuses anyway.) Oathblades are excellent, even if they already have keen on them, I would need WSS to remain centered in their use. I would avoid being stuck just using short swords. Long Swords in general have a better base damage profile.

Cons, or Why I would go with just short swords and the extra feats:
I have a fair number of good short swords, including Celestia (not upgraded) but I do not have Rebellion. Celestia procs blindness and I can couple that with another Star of Day to boost sneak attacks and Celestia's AOE damage procs. If I do drow instead of elf, I could have some shuriken skills, using the two extra feat for quickdraw and 10K.

Either way, in heroics I will be using Tiefling's assassin blade and Razorend; both already have Keen, an expanded crit range, and all-around sexiness. Tried to pull a Watcher's blade on an Heroic Elite run of Asylum and will not run that quest for a while, still shaking from the after-effects of the constant spawns that resulted in 400+ kills...

Thank you in advance for your suggestions.

[Munkenmo]

Whirling steel strike requires:
1 feat spent on martial weapon proficiency Longswords (could splash but that's not an option for your build split, or could go half elf fighter dilletante)
1 feat spent on Weapon focus Slashing
1 feat spent on Whirling Steel Strike


Shortswords require:
1 ap spent in Ninja spy.

I'd go with shortswords primarily, invest one feat in improved crit slashing (using kamas) for the times you need slashing DR. It's much cheaper versatility and also allows you to pick up human to use damage boost and hasteboost at the same time.

[Saekee]

Whirling steel strike requires:
1 feat spent on martial weapon proficiency Longswords (could splash but that's not an option for your build split, or could go half elf fighter dilletante)
1 feat spent on Weapon focus Slashing
1 feat spent on Whirling Steel Strike


Shortswords require:
1 ap spent in Ninja spy.

I'd go with shortswords primarily, invest one feat in improved crit slashing (using kamas) for the times you need slashing DR. It's much cheaper versatility and also allows you to pick up human to use damage boost and hasteboost at the same time.

hi fTdOmen, thx for your thoughts. So you are suggesting Human? But if I am taking IC: Slashing, there are really only two weapons that I will be able to use without WSS, the Brush Hook and EMG (I can still use short swords but I would not benefit from an IC: Piercing bonus, which makes them rather poor to use).

I was considering Elf or Drow (I do not have Half-Elf) so as to start with a high Dex. I believe Elf gets Longsword proficiency for free, so I was looking at two feats just to be able to swing them around as an Elf; with Human I would end up with lower dex and only +1 more from human versatility, resulting in about a loss of 3 Dex. Also, I do not have the AP for anything in the racial tree outside of 6 AP for the core (So Drow would give Spell resistance and Elf would give +4% to hit). This would negate the advantage of the damage boost and healing amp etc. I had considered a dragonmarked option, but no AP...I plan to use enough in Acrobat for shadow dodge (15), Ninja for shadow veil (11), archmage for perma-displacement (11), leaving the rest for a Tier 5 selection which will be either EK for perma-tensors, 7% doublestrike, imbues, defense, etc (37) or, when I get it, Harper. I might not take a tier 5 and just spread it out so as to get envenomed blades or Deft strikes. Totally AP starved...

I have been avoiding Halfling since the starting STR is so low (and the encumbrance issues) that as a strongly Monk build, I would easily find myself uncentered from spells, loot, etc. But it is also an option, and a good one for stealth.
Drow is appealing since I need good INT for the rogue (and wiz) stuff.

[Munkenmo]

I'm saying go human, then pick up improved critical slashing and improved critical piercing.

(I can still use short swords but I would not benefit from an IC: Piercing bonus, which makes them rather poor to use).

Yes you would. Having improved critical slashing doesn't suddenly stop your improved critical piercing feat from working with shortswords.

I know that WSS would only cost you 2 feats as an elf, but giving up on longswords and focusing instead on shortswords is a better use of your feats imo. You get effective use from kamas for only one feat, leaving you a versatility option.

I do not have the AP for anything in the racial tree outside of 6 AP for the core (So Drow would give Spell resistance and Elf would give +4% to hit

The racial dex boost is a bit of a wash imo. 6AP in human nets : Damage boost, +1 dex from core two and +3 dex when action boosting.

When I look at the splash I see elf as being a weaker option than drow or human.

With your AP limitations:

Human has (while boosting) a better dex potential than either drow or elf, along with +1 feat (resulting in the same WSS cost as elf)

Drow gets +1 to int skills over humans & elves, along with spell resistance and shuriken expertise, WSS costs one more feat than it would for elf or human.

Elf has 1 less skill point per level than either drow or human, but +4% chance to hit.

[Saekee]

Whirling steel strike requires:
1 feat spent on martial weapon proficiency Longswords (could splash but that's not an option for your build split, or could go half elf fighter dilletante)
1 feat spent on Weapon focus Slashing
1 feat spent on Whirling Steel Strike


Shortswords require:
1 ap spent in Ninja spy.

I'd go with shortswords primarily, invest one feat in improved crit slashing (using kamas) for the times you need slashing DR. It's much cheaper versatility and also allows you to pick up human to use damage boost and hasteboost at the same time.

I guess this would be the Drow version; not sure what to do with last epic destiny feat:

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 04.20.02
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 28 Lawful Good Drow Female
(9 Monk \ 5 Rogue \ 6 Wizard \ 8 Epic)
Hit Points: 358
Spell Points: 450
BAB: 12\12\17\22
Fortitude: 13
Reflex: 24
Will: 14

Starting Ending
Abilities Base Stats Base Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 28)
Strength 8 11
Dexterity 20 30
Constitution 13 18
Intelligence 14 17
Wisdom 12 15
Charisma 10 13

Tomes Used
+3 Tomes, +5 for Con

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Past Life) Past Lives: 2Monk, 2Ranger
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting
Level 2 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Dodge
Level 3 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Precision
Feat: (Selected) Sap
Level 4 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Path) Path of Harmonious Balance: Fists of Light
Level 5 (Monk)
Level 6 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Quick Draw
Level 7 (Monk)
Level 8 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Ten Thousand Stars
Level 9 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Level 10 (Wizard)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Extend Spell
Level 11 (Wizard)
Level 12 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
Level 13 (Wizard)
Level 14 (Wizard)
Level 15 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Master of Forms
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Mental Toughness
Level 16 (Wizard)
Level 17 (Rogue)
Level 18 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Level 19 (Rogue)
Level 20 (Rogue)
Level 21 (Epic)
Feat: (Selected) Grandmaster of Forms
Level 22 (Epic)
Level 23 (Epic)
Level 24 (Epic)
Feat: (Selected) Overwhelming Critical
Level 25 (Epic)
Level 26 (Epic)
Feat: (Epic Destiny) Epic Destiny: Perfect Two Weapon Fighting
Level 27 (Epic)
Feat: (Selected) Epic: Blinding Speed
Level 28 (Epic)
Feat: (Epic Destiny) Epic Destiny: Forced Escape

[Saekee]

I'm saying go human, then pick up improved critical slashing and improved critical piercing.


Yes you would. Having improved critical slashing doesn't suddenly stop your improved critical piercing feat from working with shortswords.

I know that WSS would only cost you 2 feats as an elf, but giving up on longswords and focusing instead on shortswords is a better use of your feats imo. You get effective use from kamas for only one feat, leaving you a versatility option.


The racial dex boost is a bit of a wash imo. 6AP in human nets : Damage boost, +1 dex from core two and +3 dex when action boosting.

When I look at the splash I see elf as being a weaker option than drow or human.

With your AP limitations:

Human has (while boosting) a better dex potential than either drow or elf, along with +1 feat (resulting in the same WSS cost as elf)

Drow gets +1 to int skills over humans & elves, along with spell resistance and shuriken expertise, WSS costs one more feat than it would for elf or human.

Elf has 1 less skill point per level than either drow or human, but +4% chance to hit.

I think I am leaning towards Drow. Posted progression above. this will be for a stealth build so I prefer a continuous boost to Dex than a boost through a clickie, but your point is very good. Need to think about it.

[Saekee]

hi fTdOmen, it seems with human I can duplicate the Drow start stats, but with only 18 Dex (so that is 2 less). For shuriken use, I would need 2 feats to make up for the drow one (Shuriken proficiency and Shuriken expertise). Drow core abilities would net 2 dex, totalling a 4 dex difference which would be equaled by the enhancement of the skill boost and human core (+4 total). So the difference remains with the Damage boost--5 uses for 20 seconds. It is tempting.

[DarkSable]

hi fTdOmen, it seems with human I can duplicate the Drow start stats, but with only 18 Dex (so that is 2 less). For shuriken use, I would need 2 feats to make up for the drow one (Shuriken proficiency and Shuriken expertise). Drow core abilities would net 2 dex, totalling a 4 dex difference which would be equaled by the enhancement of the skill boost and human core (+4 total). So the difference remains with the Damage boost--5 uses for 20 seconds. It is tempting.

...don't monks get shuriken proficiency automatically?

[Saekee]

...don't monks get shuriken proficiency automatically?

Yep good catch, my bad

[Munkenmo]

hi fTdOmen, it seems with human I can duplicate the Drow start stats, but with only 18 Dex (so that is 2 less). For shuriken use, I would need 2 feats to make up for the drow one (Shuriken proficiency and Shuriken expertise). Drow core abilities would net 2 dex, totalling a 4 dex difference which would be equaled by the enhancement of the skill boost and human core (+4 total). So the difference remains with the Damage boost--5 uses for 20 seconds. It is tempting.

No problem there, Monks get shuriken proficiency automatically.

I forgot for a moment that drow can take the same stat bonus twice, meaning they are the same during actionboosts. My bad sorry.

Once you get into epics, the +3 extra actionboosts twist will really help make that Damage boost enhancement go a long way.

In your featlist you didn't pick up Improved critical piercing. I'd rejig your feats slightly, swapping out quickdraw.

[unbongwah]

WSS is still a trap, IMHO; two feats for effectively +1 to base die dmg vs short swords isn't a great ROI. And as you point out, you could grab Knife Spec w/eMG (still counts as a ki weapon, right?) and be centered w/15-20 x3 crits; with maybe an EE Brush Hook, Celestia, or new Smallblade in your offhand. [Although what would really make Brush Hook worthwhile is the +2 crit range bonus from Ninja capstone, IMHO.] Plus one perk to going with light weapons is if you ever decide to TR into a Swashbuckler build, you can reuse your weapons.

[kgoodson3]

In my experience, I have not noticed any DPS increase for using longswords vs. shortswords UNLESS I was using tier 2 (ML26) or tier 3 (ML28) Thuderforged. When you start multiplying the base damage by (4) or (4.5) the damage becomes noticeable. So, in other words if you are not using Thundeforge, I wouldn't worry about Whirling Steel Strike.

[Saekee]

No problem there, Monks get shuriken proficiency automatically.

I forgot for a moment that drow can take the same stat bonus twice, meaning they are the same during actionboosts. My bad sorry.

Once you get into epics, the +3 extra actionboosts twist will really help make that Damage boost enhancement go a long way.

In your featlist you didn't pick up Improved critical piercing. I'd rejig your feats slightly, swapping out quickdraw.

Good point re extra action boosts. I listed IC slashing but cant swap Quickdraw for IC Piercing since the BAB is too low at that level. I could dump Grandmaster of forms and have both ICs but am reluctant

WSS is still a trap, IMHO; two feats for effectively +1 to base die dmg vs short swords isn't a great ROI. And as you point out, you could grab Knife Spec w/eMG (still counts as a ki weapon, right?) and be centered w/15-20 x3 crits; with maybe an EE Brush Hook, Celestia, or new Smallblade in your offhand. [Although what would really make Brush Hook worthwhile is the +2 crit range bonus from Ninja capstone, IMHO.] Plus one perk to going with light weapons is if you ever decide to TR into a Swashbuckler build, you can reuse your weapons.

Hi unbongwah, I agree--I think I will stick with hooks and EMG for main weapons--doing much less than when I was a pure ninja (if I had 2 EMGs and took the tier 5 of assassin, that would come closer.

In my experience, I have not noticed any DPS increase for using longswords vs. shortswords UNLESS I was using tier 2 (ML26) or tier 3 (ML28) Thuderforged. When you start multiplying the base damage by (4) or (4.5) the damage becomes noticeable. So, in other words if you are not using Thundeforge, I wouldn't worry about Whirling Steel Strike.

hi kgoodson, thx that is a great point--I guess I was really tempted by Oathblades for level 20. I think, then, I will go IC slashing and use Hook mainhand and EMG in offhand. Could be worse...

[Munkenmo]

Good point re extra action boosts. I listed IC slashing but cant swap Quickdraw for IC Piercing since the BAB is too low at that level. I could dump Grandmaster of forms and have both ICs but am reluctant

Hmm I can't work out a good way to push a better setup into level 6 or less either.

I'm not sure blinding speed is that worthwhile on a build with extend and 5wiz, especially with the amount of speed items in game now. You could always pick up IC Slashing first, then use your free feat swap to get IC Pierce when you start using piercing weapons primarily, Then pick up IC Slashing again at level 27.

[Saekee]

Thx fTdOmen & others for your advice. I went human and plan for Ic: slashing. Dumped shurikens, buffed Str a little and am going for the PA and cleave line also to help with mobs in groups, 9monk 6 wiz 5 rogue stealth melee, dex-based.