Update 24 suggestions

[Cordovan]

Barbarians = great!

Care to comment on Severlin's new title as "Fighter/Barbarian/Designer"? Is there some hope for some Fighter love in U24?

He's actually had that title since he joined the DDO team. I wouldn't read too much into it. U24 will focus on the Barbarian, in regard to class updates.

[Monkey-Boy]

Go play a low level Rogue with deception items and then fight undead, see what happens.

I have a few rogue lives under my belt, I've done it and it was fine. We talking Deleras and stuff like that? Just get some maces and smash things.

[Gloomfall]

I have a few rogue lives under my belt, I've done it and it was fine. We talking Deleras and stuff like that? Just get some maces and smash things.

Or any Rogue that doesn't use Shadowdancer in epic undead content.

[Monkey-Boy]

Or any Rogue that doesn't use Shadowdancer in epic undead content.

I'm not sure what that means, explain please.

[Gloomfall]

Basically, the issue is Sneak Attack immune enemies and difficulty of obtaining fortification bypass at low to mid levels. Once you get to 28 it's not as "much" of an issue, but the fact that you have to really push yourself to use your sneak attack damage on content where it matters can be annoying.

Especially when you've played through as a THF Paladin or Fighter and you can see the crazy amount of damage done.

Zeus/Cetus can be some pretty crazy melee.. but most THF in general can pull some really big numbers.

My argument was that going beyond 2 splash in Rogue for trapping you're losing a large amount of functionality you could have gotten by taking any other class.

[lain5246]

Basically, the issue is Sneak Attack immune enemies and difficulty of obtaining fortification bypass at low to mid levels. Once you get to 28 it's not as "much" of an issue, but the fact that you have to really push yourself to use your sneak attack damage on content where it matters can be annoying.

Especially when you've played through as a THF Paladin or Fighter and you can see the crazy amount of damage done.

Zeus/Cetus can be some pretty crazy melee.. but most THF in general can pull some really big numbers.

My argument was that going beyond 2 splash in Rogue for trapping you're losing a large amount of functionality you could have gotten by taking any other class.

well I don't think that every class needs to be the best in every quest area. the idea is that parties are made to fill in rolls that one or more classes are weak in. that said I really like using shadow dancer in content that has lots of beholders and/or lv drain, but in hack and slash areas I use dc. oh and my build is currently a lv 22 human pure arti bastard sword user swapping between evasion and medium armor

[lain5246]

I think that as a barbarian it would be cool to twf d-axes and b-swords and get glancing blows as barbs gave a more primal way of fighting.

[Myrddinman]

He's actually had that title since he joined the DDO team. I wouldn't read too much into it. U24 will focus on the Barbarian, in regard to class updates.

Oh well, U23 had some great Fighter benefits. Go Barbarians!

[lain5246]

This was included in their survey results from the Balance thread:




Notice how first they overhauled Bards, then Paladins, and next up is Barbarians?

So one might guess they're eyeing Rogue, Fighter, and Cleric next, all being sub-3.0 on their power scale.

if i remember correctly they are trying to get classes without a third tree, and also rogues and fighters got a decent boost with the last enhancement pass.

[lain5246]

oops, last post I made should read that fighters and rogues got a decent boost last update not enhancement pass. sorry

[Qhualor]

Basically, the issue is Sneak Attack immune enemies and difficulty of obtaining fortification bypass at low to mid levels. Once you get to 28 it's not as "much" of an issue, but the fact that you have to really push yourself to use your sneak attack damage on content where it matters can be annoying.

Especially when you've played through as a THF Paladin or Fighter and you can see the crazy amount of damage done.

Zeus/Cetus can be some pretty crazy melee.. but most THF in general can pull some really big numbers.

My argument was that going beyond 2 splash in Rogue for trapping you're losing a large amount of functionality you could have gotten by taking any other class.

Get a holy ghostbane weapon for low levels. Use a disruptor for mid to high levls. Its not that bad actually.


TR'd my main into a 18 rogue 2 fighter to get Shadar kai and Rogue past life. She uses 2 handers. Her DPS right now is nothing comparable to a real DPS fighter, but its really not that bad. I'll hit 20 tonight and can't wait to equip my ESOS. Should be crazy DPS.

[Gloomfall]

Get a holy ghostbane weapon for low levels. Use a disruptor for mid to high levls. Its not that bad actually.


TR'd my main into a 18 rogue 2 fighter to get Shadar kai and Rogue past life. She uses 2 handers. Her DPS right now is nothing comparable to a real DPS fighter, but its really not that bad. I'll hit 20 tonight and can't wait to equip my ESOS. Should be crazy DPS.

The problem being that it's not comparable to a real DPS fighter.

What sort of role do they really want Rogues to have?

Utility isn't their thing. Trapping can be more efficiently accomplished by a 2 level splash.

They're definitely not tanks.

If anything DPS is kind of the only thing they have left. Why should they be worse off than someone with a substantial amount of utility or survivability more than they have?

[Gloomfall]

well I don't think that every class needs to be the best in every quest area. the idea is that parties are made to fill in rolls that one or more classes are weak in. that said I really like using shadow dancer in content that has lots of beholders and/or lv drain, but in hack and slash areas I use dc. oh and my build is currently a lv 22 human pure arti bastard sword user swapping between evasion and medium armor

The problem is that some classes are the best in every quest area, or at least a hell of a lot better than a pure rogue. Shadowdancer helps mitigate some of the flaws that Rogue has but it doesn't go quite far enough.

[patang01]

Basically, the issue is Sneak Attack immune enemies and difficulty of obtaining fortification bypass at low to mid levels. Once you get to 28 it's not as "much" of an issue, but the fact that you have to really push yourself to use your sneak attack damage on content where it matters can be annoying.

Especially when you've played through as a THF Paladin or Fighter and you can see the crazy amount of damage done.

Zeus/Cetus can be some pretty crazy melee.. but most THF in general can pull some really big numbers.

My argument was that going beyond 2 splash in Rogue for trapping you're losing a large amount of functionality you could have gotten by taking any other class.

That's not any different from my fighter fighting undead. Plus all classes shouldn't be good at everything. Rouges can insta kill through assassination. Few others than say casters can do the same.

[Gloomfall]

That's not any different from my fighter fighting undead. Plus all classes shouldn't be good at everything. Rouges can insta kill through assassination. Few others than say casters can do the same.

Casters can do that, and they can do it much more effectively without drawing aggro from the entire area or having to worry about stealth first. Plus.. you know, casters?

Fighter has to worry about crit and there is no argument there. However THF fighters can still churn out a VERY healthy amount of damage even without crits. Power Attack, Weapon Specialization, and their various Fighter Enhancements do some amazing things for them. When you're looking at Paladins though the bonus Light Damage can wreck some serious face.

[Qhualor]

The problem being that it's not comparable to a real DPS fighter.

What sort of role do they really want Rogues to have?

Utility isn't their thing. Trapping can be more efficiently accomplished by a 2 level splash.

They're definitely not tanks.

If anything DPS is kind of the only thing they have left. Why should they be worse off than someone with a substantial amount of utility or survivability more than they have?

I can make improvements and I will tonight when I hit 20. This is my first attempt at something different and going against the grain. What I should have done was take 6 -8 levels of fighter to have more access to more feats and enhancements in Kensei, but lesson learned. Comparing to my dumb dumb DPS Kensei fighter her DPS is just 2-300 points less. I'll be able to close the gap in epics this life. See what happens next life with what I know now.

Typically rogues aren't tanks, unless you just splash for the evasion. But than its better to splash monk. Rogues lose a lot of DPS with agro.

I don't know what roles "they" want rogues to be played, but customization in DDO is pretty cool. I'm able to make a rogue using 2 handers work.

[Gloomfall]

I can make improvements and I will tonight when I hit 20. This is my first attempt at something different and going against the grain. What I should have done was take 6 -8 levels of fighter to have more access to more feats and enhancements in Kensei, but lesson learned. Comparing to my dumb dumb DPS Kensei fighter her DPS is just 2-300 points less. I'll be able to close the gap in epics this life. See what happens next life with what I know now.

Typically rogues aren't tanks, unless you just splash for the evasion. But than its better to splash monk. Rogues lose a lot of DPS with agro.

I don't know what roles "they" want rogues to be played, but customization in DDO is pretty cool. I'm able to make a rogue using 2 handers work.

You can make a two handed rogue work, it will end up being a Quarterstaff Rogue. You'll be Thief Acrobat and you'll find yourself heavily splashing Monk over Rogue as it provides more utility and survival. It's just hard to justify getting a lot of levels into Rogue at this point.

[patang01]

Casters can do that, and they can do it much more effectively without drawing aggro from the entire area or having to worry about stealth first. Plus.. you know, casters?

Fighter has to worry about crit and there is no argument there. However THF fighters can still churn out a VERY healthy amount of damage even without crits. Power Attack, Weapon Specialization, and their various Fighter Enhancements do some amazing things for them. When you're looking at Paladins though the bonus Light Damage can wreck some serious face.

All true, but fighters should be specialist at melee dps, just as casters should be experts at CC and caster DPS. The problem isn't that rogues are bad at their role, there's just not enough content where they can be that role, such as assassin. Basically most of the content we have lacks any need for strategy or tactics other than remove trap followed by rapid DPS. So in essence the problem isn't the lack of DPS on behalf of rogues - there's no content that makes rogues pivotal enough for their role.

[moo_cow]

This was included in their survey results from the Balance thread:

I would hope that would not be the order of class updates because that chart is not a very good representation of class power.

Fvs the 4th most powerful class? That's a joke.
Monk being the 2nd most powerful class? No. Monkchers are incredibly powerful, but that is not a very good indication of melee monks overall.

[Monkey-Boy]

The problem being that it's not comparable to a real DPS fighter.

That's simply not true at all.