U23 Divine Grace

[Zachski]

You pointed out the problem precisely - cha dumping toons will still get the same exact bonus with 2 levels of paladin and those with a high charisma get a massive nerf - for a feat based on charisma.

It is literally no more of a problem than the fact that a level 20 paladin will have the same bonus as a level 2 Paladin if they both have 28 charisma.

Which is to say...

It is not a problem in the least.

You want a better Divine Grace? Take more levels of Paladin AND increase your Charisma. Simple as that.

Believe me, you don't need it. A +8 bonus is more than a toon without 2 levels of Paladin is going to get!

Might as well start complaining that none of the other classes get a Monk's excellent save growth just by taking two levels of Monk.

[slarden]

It is literally no more of a problem than the fact that a level 20 paladin will have the same bonus as a level 2 Paladin if they both have 28 charisma.

Which is to say...

It is not a problem in the least.

You want a better Divine Grace? Take more levels of Paladin AND increase your Charisma. Simple as that.

Believe me, you don't need it. A +8 bonus is more than a toon without 2 levels of Paladin is going to get!

Might as well start complaining that none of the other classes get a Monk's excellent save growth just by taking two levels of Monk.

A high charisma 20 pal and low charisma 20 pal have very different saves as it should be - divine grace is a feat based on charisma

I have no skin in the game - I already TRd out of my 2 pal splash long ago. Others will do the same or leave the game. It's just an absolutely ridiculous nerf considering this does nothing to improve game balance.

The most powerful bullds don't use 2 pal. The builds that are high-char with 2 pal aren't overpowered builds.

So this effectively accomplishes nothing except to drive away players. It's a bad decision, but not the first or the worst Turbine's made.

[grandeibra]

All they did was remove a few build options from the game that weren't overpowered or broken.

It's not cool, I have a friend that already stopped playing the game because the decision is now final. I will be playing less as a side effect.

You pointed out the problem precisely - cha dumping toons will still get the same exact bonus with 2 levels of paladin and those with a high charisma get a massive nerf - for a feat based on charisma.

Turbine is going to do what Turbine is going to do - it's their game - their consequences. The only real impact for me is I will be playing a less and spending less because it drove a friend away. No big deal, I will find other ways to spend the money and have just as much fun.

haha you're like a broken record and still refuse to acknowledge all the real reasons for why they made the change

They did a whole lot more than affect a few non-OP builds. They narrowed the active range for saves for the mid-90% of all toons. Something that greatly affects their ability to make quests interesting/challenging for all of us and not deadly/cakewalk for too many

And for I think the 7th time (me and several others have pointed it out...) in this thread: Yes a toon with medium cha gets same bonus as a 70cha toon with 2 lvls of pally. And a lowly 2 lvls of pally gets a toon the same bonus as a 20 lvl pally if both have 26 cha. That's the whole point. Scale and cap by both cha/pally lvls independently to make a smaller range of saves for most toons.

And yes we've heard of your friend already. Each and every nerfix makes some people leave, and others happy. Part of MMO. I've known literally 100s of players who have left. I feel your friend's pain but So what? And tbh unless he was close to leaving anyway he will find a new way to make his toon fun/powerful. Most of us always do

It's not the nerfix that is a bad; it is your understanding of the reasons behind the decision that is bad.

[Impaqt]

I just cant understand how someone can say its not that powerful and its not that big of a deal....

and then continue to say how everyone is going to quit because it is getting changed.

o.O

[grandeibra]

I just cant understand how someone can say its not that powerful and its not that big of a deal....

and then continue to say how everyone is going to quit because it is getting changed.

o.O

exactly impact. It's just a childish temper tantrum imho

Now if someone were to show that the change is actually detrimental to DDO and supply ample evidence of it I would be all ears.

[Vellrad]

If they really have to cap it it should be 2+paladin level*3+epic level+1.25.
So there's increase at epic levels.

[Raiderone]

Now responding with your sock puppet account...

His toon was never really dominant - Sorc 16/2/2 was dominant before the enhancement pass (before bladeforged could TR) and since then has been a build that performs well in EE, but is not dominant. None of the dominant builds today are max charisma builds using 2 pal.

My point isn't so much that DG is nerfed, it's that this particular way of nerfing it is bad because it doesn't use charisma in the formula. The proposed formula gives +8 saves for 28 charisma and +8 saves for 60 charisma. The formula should apply a percentage of the charisma modifier based on paladin levels rather than cap it.

What you want is for the formula to hurt more for lower charisma modifier, which would then hurt more players. Basically It's go ahead and nerf DG but put in a formula that helps my toon (or friends toon).
When the change is to compensate for the ridiculous amount of saves on pure Charisma based toons with only 2 levels Pally.

How about this change for DG, no Epic levels of Charisma can increase DG. Only Heroic Levels apply including items and all bonuses. Maybe max 38 Charisma.
My point is that DG was fine during Heroic levels but Epic Destiny's and Charisma increases in tomes, enhancements and such have made DG overpowered.

Like others have mentioned nerfs happen in MMO's get over it. i have three or four toons which will be impacted by DG... Getting +3 Hearts would be nice....

[Impaqt]

If they really have to cap it it should be 2+paladin level*3+epic level+1.25.
So there's increase at epic levels.

Well, no.. Because Epic levels are NOT paladin levels...

However, if you are in a Divine Destiny Sphere, those levels should count as Paladin levels for Divine Grace.

[slarden]

What you want is for the formula to hurt more for lower charisma modifier, which would then hurt more players. Basically It's go ahead and nerf DG but put in a formula that helps my toon (or friends toon).
When the change is to compensate for the ridiculous amount of saves on pure Charisma based toons with only 2 levels Pally.

How about this change for DG, no Epic levels of Charisma can increase DG. Only Heroic Levels apply including items and all bonuses. Maybe max 38 Charisma.
My point is that DG was fine during Heroic levels but Epic Destiny's and Charisma increases in tomes, enhancements and such have made DG overpowered.

Like others have mentioned nerfs happen in MMO's get over it. i have three or four toons which will be impacted by DG... Getting +3 Hearts would be nice....

The nerf doesn't hurt me because I already TRd out of 2 pal build over a month ago. It only hurts me in the sense that my friend and likely others will leave, but honestly spending less time and money on an mmo probably isn't a bad thing.

I don't like the nerf because it only hurts a few builds - builds that aren't overpowered - so it seems pointless to break builds.

I have nothing to get over other than voice my opinion with my time and spending patterns. I am disappointed to lose someone that I quest with over a stupid nerf - and it simply proves to me once and for all that Turbine doesn't get the balance issues at all. I don't have a problem with nerf, but turbine is nerfing legit builds that aren't overpowered while allowing exploit after exploit to continue.

I don't agree dg was fine previously and is somehow broken now. It is the opposite. Prior to U14 a max char and 2 pal levels easily gave me a no fail save (fail only on a 1). That is not the case now - I need a significant epic destiny and max gear options to get there now.

[slarden]

Well, no.. Because Epic levels are NOT paladin levels...

However, if you are in a Divine Destiny Sphere, those levels should count as Paladin levels for Divine Grace.

To me this would be a great solution.

[elg582]

Not that I have a dog in this fight (my only paladin is pure); I see the cons to the change (however minor), but I don't see the pros.

That is to say, I see how this change hurts some players, but I don't see how it benefits anyone, and that seems like the hallmark of a Bad Idea.

For example, my pure paladin can have an insanely high CHA before hitting the cap. So high, in fact, that it is not technically possible given the current state of the game, or in any conceivable near-future update. I get no benefit from this.

A couple of guildies, who run 18 sorc/2 pali builds, will be radically affected, to the extent that the entire purpose of those characters is cast aside.

And yes, I've been through changes that ruined characters, too, but unlike some people here who seem to get some satisfaction out of it happening to someone else, I empathize and think that there should be more justification than, "the 10 pali splashes are jealous that the 2 pali splashes get just as much effect out of one pali ability, even though they miss out on several other pali abilities."

So all they are doing is limiting the effectiveness of certain builds; do they wonder why no one plays paladin-dilettante helfs?