Acoylyte of the Skin [Lost Trees Project]

[LuKaSu]

Oh I agree its very unbalanced right now.
Very.
And thank you for saying so, I appreciate it.

I am just gathering up stuff and throwing it in there.
Placement into cores would be better, but do we honestly want Dominate Monster as star ability of this tree.
Players tend to hate to be charmers for the most part.

Charmer builds, for me, are like ranger builds and pure rogue builds. I WANT to want to play them, but whenever I build one, they just don't live up to my expectations. I know that it is possible to build good ones (of all three types), but I keep coming back to my melee divines

With some thought on the matter of companions ~ the best approach that I can see for this would be ~
Indestructable Imp that looks like a store pet companion that shoots scorching ray at foes every X seconds or the like similar to
the Favored Souls archon ability that grants some buffs on the side.

This tree needs a lot of work to have a snowballs chance in hell of happening, no wonder it never took of the ground so far....

Thanks for the honesty, I think if we forget about what we want, and realize what we need, we can do this....

Sorry, I'm not trying to just throw water of your ideas. You and several of us together have brought the proposed Favored Soul Tree to a pretty good point, and it's a whole lot different than the first mock-up. So, it's still well within the realms of possibility that you'll get this one whipped into shape as well.

[DrWily]

Sorry, I'm not trying to just throw water of your ideas. You and several of us together have brought the proposed Favored Soul Tree to a pretty good point, and it's a whole lot different than the first mock-up. So, it's still well within the realms of possibility that you'll get this one whipped into shape as well.

On it.

[Silverleafeon]

I think your thought about the cores is important.

How about we swap the Devil ~ Demon path from the cores to the tier 1 thru 5, and move the power stuff to the cores.
That gives more latitude and a bit less effort.

Second, I think if we start thinking outside of the box that would help.

Third, what do Devils and Demon inspire in our minds the most?

Hmmm...


And don't worry about raining upon my parade I need all the honest advice I can get here, after all this is probably the bottom of the bucket, lol... the passed over by the Devs...

[Silverleafeon]

Devil Traits

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm

Devil

Devils are fiends from lawful evil-aligned planes.

Many devils are surrounded by a fear aura, which they use to break up powerful groups and defeat opponents piecemeal. Devils with spell-like abilities use their illusion abilities to delude and confuse foes as much as possible. A favorite trick is to create illusory reinforcements; enemies can never be entirely sure if a threat is only a figment or real summoned devils joining the fray.

Devil Traits

Most devils possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).

• •Immunity to fire and poison.
  •Resistance to acid 10 and cold 10.
  •See in Darkness (Su): Some devils can see perfectly in darkness of any kind, even that created by a deeper darkness spell.
  •Summon (Sp): Some devils share the ability to summon others of their kind (the success chance and type of devils summoned are noted in each monster description).
  •Telepathy.

[Silverleafeon]

Demon Traits

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm

Demon

Demons are a race of creatures native to chaotic evil-aligned planes. They are ferocity personified and will attack any creature just for the sheer fun of it—even other demons.

Demon Traits

Most demons possess the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).

• •Immunity to electricity and poison.
  •Resistance to acid 10, cold 10, and fire 10.
  •Summon (Sp): Many demons share the ability to summon others of their kind (the success chance and type of demon summoned are noted in each monster description). Demons are often reluctant to use this power until in obvious peril or extreme circumstances.
  •Telepathy.

[Silverleafeon]

Elemental Forms

At levels 13 and 17 a druid may use their 'Wild Shape' feat to change into an elemental.
You are considered an elemental.
You gain a +10 racial bonus to your saving throws against magical poisons
You have racial immunity to natural poisons, sleep, paralysis and stun, and 100% bonus to fortification.
Elemental forms keep their equipped weapons after the transformation.
You must prepare your elemental form spells as normal and do not receive additional spell preparation slots for them.


We might can copy some of this for "poison immunity and the like.

[Silverleafeon]

Devils and Demons should get this:

You gain a +10 racial bonus to your saving throws against magical poisons
You have racial immunity to natural poisons, sleep

Aura of Fear

Summon Imp/whatever

Deception or Fierce fighter

Telepathy



Devils should get this:

Major fire absorption
Minor acid and cold absorption
More likely to use illusions, exceptions apply
Possible True Seeing or Spot bonus

Demons should get this:

Major Electrical absorption
Minor acid, cold, and fire absorption
More likely to use brute force, exceptions apply

[Silverleafeon]

Round 2 is up.

Changes ~ plenty....

Studying it out, I found a strong relationship with the Angel of Vengeance tree which makes sense as angel, devils, and demons share qualities but not alignments and ideals. So you will see a tendency for some profane version of the AoV tree, with divergences such as some of the new Beacon of Hope tree qualities.


The most powerful SLAs were moved to Capstone, Core 18.
Namely Dominate Monster and Globe of Invulnerablity.
These are zero sp cost to encourage their use.

Others were eliminated, and less powerful ones typically seen when fighting devils were brought in namely:
Poison, Contagion, Blindness, and Curse.

Fear was brought into tier five as Fear is very typical of PnP versions of these type of outsiders.

Most of these spell don't see very common usage.

There is a very powerful tier 5 summons buff, but the rest of it went into an Imp version of the AoV archon.


Cheers, this was fun, and it is sort of taking shape now....

[Wizza]

I made a suggestion thread when EK was not yet announced. HERE.

Re-reading it now, it kinda needs some adjustments but whatever, just throwing it out.

[Skavenaps]

I dont know if that post is for the sake of do a PrE, but for me, an import part of a PrE is the flavor. if you are going to do a Devil and Demon Pre, please, get the things right.

Planar Power: For each point spent in this tree you gain +1 Universal Spell Power.
Choose a path: Devil or Demon; this will be your choice for multi-selections later on.
Requires: Any non lawful alignment.

Do you realize that Devils are LAWFUL? How is supposed that you take the powers of a Devil and don't let you become lawful?

Devil Path: Shield of Blasphemy: Toggle: Enemies that strike you have a chance of suffering profane condemnation for 20 seconds, increasing their vulnerability to fire and alignment-based damage by 10%, and decreasing their fortification by 10%. This debuff stacks up to 5 times, and is dispelled by Bless effects. Cooldown: 1 second.

http://archive.wizards.com/default.a...subtype&alpha=

Baatezu, the kind of more common devil, is inmune to fire and posion. So its tematic that they increase others vulnerability to fire and posion.

Demon Path: Shield of Blasphemy: Toggle: Enemies that strike you have a chance of suffering profane condemnation for 20 seconds, increasing their vulnerability to electric and alignment-based damage by 10%, and decreasing their fortification by 10%. This debuff stacks up to 5 times, and is dispelled by Bless effects. Cooldown: 1 second.

http://archive.wizards.com/default.a...subtype&alpha=

Tanar'ri are Immunity to electricity and poison.So the same, vulnerability to electricity and poison.

Core 12
Devil Path: Summon Imp: Toggle: Spell like ability: A small imp hovers over your shoulder and attacks nearby enemies. This imp is indestructible, deals 1 to 3 + caster level fire damage every 2 seconds, and uses half of your Fire Spell Power and Spell Critical effects for its fire beam attacks. The imp will only attack enemies that have already been damaged, and will not attack fascinated or mesmerized foes, and always attacks the enemy with the fewest hit points in range. All threat generated by the imp is applied to you. Cost: 20 spell points. Cooldown: 6 second.

Demon Path: Summon Imp: Toggle: Spell like ability: A small imp hovers over your shoulder and attacks nearby enemies. This imp is indestructible, deals 1 to 3 + caster level electric damage every 2 seconds, and uses half of your electric Spell Power and Spell Critical effects for its electric beam attacks. The imp will only attack enemies that have already been damaged, and will not attack fascinated or mesmerized foes, and always attacks the enemy with the fewest hit points in range. All threat generated by the imp is applied to you. Cost: 20 spell points. Cooldown: 6 second.

Imps are Devils and Quasits is the demon equivalent.

Core 6
Aura of Menace: Toggle: You project a 15 meter Aura of Menace, decreasing the saving throws, attack, and armor class of nearby enemies by 2. Cooldown: 1 second

is not aura of menace a typical Angel power?

Core 18
Defense of the Pit Spell Like Ability: Globe of Invulnerability (Activation Cost: 0 SP. Cooldown: 10 seconds)


It should be an aura of flames (Devil) or electricity (Demon) that protects from that element (as the Dragon ED).

[Holybird]

Ok normally I like your ideas Silver, but this time

1) You step at Barbs feet. 25Dr/Good? Makes my barb feel so poor.
2) Core 18. 0sp cost Globe of Invulnerability? With 10 secs cool-down? That makes you permanently immune against all lvl 4 and under spells. Could add 1 sp cost so it would seem at least not so OP?
3) Overall like the idea of tree. But too powerful atm. With some changes I could actually roll a sorc some day

With all respect Holybird.


P.S Ye really hit the jackpot with Gatekeeeper, do the same with this

[mezzorco]

The tree shouldn't require a non-lawful alignment. If fact, demons are chaotic evil creatures, while devils are lawful evil.
Devils never lie and youcan always trust their words (do you remember the devil in nwn2?).
I would replace alignment restriction with any lawful for devil path and any chaotic for demon path. Or simply discard it, like pale master, kensei and assassin.

Also, the tree shouldn't grant you an imp if you chose the demon path, because imps are lawful evil creatures.

[Silverleafeon]

I made a suggestion thread when EK was not yet announced. HERE.

Re-reading it now, it kinda needs some adjustments but whatever, just throwing it out.

Post #3 now reads:

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...ead-to-discuss

Wow, an entire thread on this subject, definitely worth reading.
THANK YOU!

The tree shouldn't require a non-lawful alignment. If fact, demons are chaotic evil creatures, while devils are lawful evil.
Devils never lie and youcan always trust their words (do you remember the devil in nwn2?).
I would replace alignment restriction with any lawful for devil path and any chaotic for demon path. Or simply discard it, like pale master, kensei and assassin.

Also, the tree shouldn't grant you an imp if you chose the demon path, because imps are lawful evil creatures.

Opsay, as you and others mentioned, lol, opsay, we will change thus.

Guess I need to goggle what is the Imp version in demon form?

[Silverleafeon]

Ok normally I like your ideas Silver, but this time

THANKS EVERYONE FOR THE FEEDBACK, YOU ARE IMPORTANT!

1) You step at Barbs feet. 25Dr/Good? Makes my barb feel so poor.

My Barbarian Project suggested changing Barbarian DR / -- to something like
"Barbarian DR = (Barbarian Level * 0.X) + (Epic Level * 2)"

So, yes atm this is uber compared to Barbarian.
I hope to make this similar to the hopefully new and improved Barbarian.
Sev has publically stated that he hopes but does not promise to improve Barbarians in update 24.
And that is as good as you will ever get from a Dev till you see it hit Lamania.
They shy away from promises.
So let us consider this Fuzzy Math atm.

By the way, it was the player's huge response helping me with the Barbarian project which might have pushed that cart along its way.
Thank you all!

2) Core 18. 0sp cost Globe of Invulnerability? With 10 secs cool-down? That makes you permanently immune against all lvl 4 and under spells. Could add 1 sp cost so it would seem at least not so OP?

No body uses that spells, no body, and its a great spell.
But sure I could tack on 10% of its true sp cost.
Easy to do.

3) Overall like the idea of tree. But too powerful atm. With some changes I could actually roll a sorc some day

Well, I am happy to hear that.

With all respect Holybird.


P.S Ye really hit the jackpot with Gatekeeeper, do the same with this

Woot! With players like you guy around helping, we can do this.

[LuKaSu]

Acolyte of the Skin round 2

Tier Two

Outsider Defenses II: You gain DR/Good 7

AP Cost: 2 Ranks: 1 Progression: 5 Requirement: Outsider Defenses I


Tier Three

Outsider Defenses III: You gain DR/Good 12
AP Cost: 2 Ranks: 1 Progression: 10 Requirement: Outsider Defenses II


Tier Four

Outsider Defenses IV: You gain DR/Good 18
AP Cost: 2 Ranks: 1 Progression: 20 Requirement: Outsider Defenses III


Tier Five

Outsider Defenses V: You gain DR/Good 25

AP Cost: 2 Ranks: 1 Progression: 30 Requirement: Outsider Defenses IV

Keep in mind that back in the day, getting your WF Favored soul to have a 17 DR made you feel almost invulnerable. Obviously, the numbers won't work with epics, but these DRs still would be plenty super-powerful in heroics. You can have enough APs at level 3 to take Tier 3 enhancements. So imagine running around Korthos and the Harbor with a DR of 12. You'd be unstoppable.

Tier 4, you could get by, say level 5, so imagine running around the marketplace and Three Barrel Island with a DR of 18. Completely too much. And there's not a whole lot of creatures that would break DR/Good by that level anyway, so it's basically like having DR of 18/-.

Or imagine a 4 Sorc / x Fighter build. 18 DR for a 4 Sorc / 1 Fighter. Even if he never casts a spell, those four Sorc levels would make him more un-killable than all other fighters nearby.

Maybe a low core (3) could give you 5/Good, then a higher level core (12?) could raise the number to be equal to 5 + half your sorcerer levels or something, then your core 20 cap could bring it up to 20/Good. Even at the level 12, getting 5+6 DR would be very powerful. I know that the goal is to have an increasing amount of power as you go up the tree, but trees also have to be relatively balanced for low levels.

On a positive note, a 16 Barbarian / 4 Sorc would finally get the DR that he should have! So, that's a win (but a 7 Barb / 5 Sorc could have 25 DR at level 12. Wow!)

My general advice: if anything would make a low-level character or low-level splash crazy powerful, put it in the cores.

[Silverleafeon]

Aye, a nice long post, THANK YOU!
Will read and respond.

I dont know if that post is for the sake of do a PrE, but for me, an import part of a PrE is the flavor. if you are going to do a Devil and Demon Pre, please, get the things right.

Need all the roleplaying help I can get.
I will confess there were some places like:
"Who likes to poison more, Devils or Demons?"

Planar Power: For each point spent in this tree you gain +1 Universal Spell Power.
Choose a path: Devil or Demon; this will be your choice for multi-selections later on.
Requires: Any non lawful alignment.

Do you realize that Devils are LAWFUL? How is supposed that you take the powers of a Devil and don't let you become lawful?

Lol, and after carefully planning out a final build with chaos hammer included for those moments when devils arrive, and Order's Wrath for those moments when Demons arrive, all that planning, and I forget this detail.

Many eyes on the tree is the way to go.
Thank you!

Devil Path: Shield of Blasphemy: Toggle: Enemies that strike you have a chance of suffering profane condemnation for 20 seconds, increasing their vulnerability to fire and alignment-based damage by 10%, and decreasing their fortification by 10%. This debuff stacks up to 5 times, and is dispelled by Bless effects. Cooldown: 1 second.

http://archive.wizards.com/default.a...subtype&alpha=

Baatezu, the kind of more common devil, is inmune to fire and posion. So its tematic that they increase others vulnerability to fire and posion.

I think we could slip that in.

Demon Path: Shield of Blasphemy: Toggle: Enemies that strike you have a chance of suffering profane condemnation for 20 seconds, increasing their vulnerability to electric and alignment-based damage by 10%, and decreasing their fortification by 10%. This debuff stacks up to 5 times, and is dispelled by Bless effects. Cooldown: 1 second.

http://archive.wizards.com/default.a...subtype&alpha=

Tanar'ri are Immunity to electricity and poison.So the same, vulnerability to electricity and poison.

Sure, we could add poison to that list.

Powerwise, force, light, and sonic are a step above acid, cold, electric and fire.
The former are less likely to be blocked by resistances and immunity than the latter.
Since this is a copy of the AoV tree (I found angel, devils, and demons to share certain traits) we could definitely justify this addition.

Core 12
Devil Path: Summon Imp: Toggle: Spell like ability: A small imp hovers over your shoulder and attacks nearby enemies. This imp is indestructible, deals 1 to 3 + caster level fire damage every 2 seconds, and uses half of your Fire Spell Power and Spell Critical effects for its fire beam attacks. The imp will only attack enemies that have already been damaged, and will not attack fascinated or mesmerized foes, and always attacks the enemy with the fewest hit points in range. All threat generated by the imp is applied to you. Cost: 20 spell points. Cooldown: 6 second.

Demon Path: Summon Imp: Toggle: Spell like ability: A small imp hovers over your shoulder and attacks nearby enemies. This imp is indestructible, deals 1 to 3 + caster level electric damage every 2 seconds, and uses half of your electric Spell Power and Spell Critical effects for its electric beam attacks. The imp will only attack enemies that have already been damaged, and will not attack fascinated or mesmerized foes, and always attacks the enemy with the fewest hit points in range. All threat generated by the imp is applied to you. Cost: 20 spell points. Cooldown: 6 second.[/b]

Imps are Devils and Quasits is the demon equivalent.

Thank you, you have saved me 30 minutes of searching.
In return, I will spend those 30 minutes adding these great suggestions to the tree.

Core 6
Aura of Menace: Toggle: You project a 15 meter Aura of Menace, decreasing the saving throws, attack, and armor class of nearby enemies by 2. Cooldown: 1 second[/b]

is not aura of menace a typical Angel power?

Yes, it is.
I did notice that many devils and demons sported some sort of fear auras themselves.
So, a rename is in order, and perhaps a minor rewriting?
But the fear aura theme seems appropriate unless players think otherwise.

Core 18
Defense of the Pit Spell Like Ability: Globe of Invulnerability (Activation Cost: 0 SP. Cooldown: 10 seconds)[/b]


It should be an aura of flames (Devil) or electricity (Demon) that protects from that element (as the Dragon ED).

Ah, hmm..., yes I put 10% +10% = 20% inside the tier trees for their respective energies.
But you do have a point.

[Silverleafeon]

Keep in mind that back in the day, getting your WF Favored soul to have a 17 DR made you feel almost invulnerable. Obviously, the numbers won't work with epics, but these DRs still would be plenty super-powerful in heroics. You can have enough APs at level 3 to take Tier 3 enhancements. So imagine running around Korthos and the Harbor with a DR of 12. You'd be unstoppable.

Tier 4, you could get by, say level 5, so imagine running around the marketplace and Three Barrel Island with a DR of 18. Completely too much. And there's not a whole lot of creatures that would break DR/Good by that level anyway, so it's basically like having DR of 18/-.

Or imagine a 4 Sorc / x Fighter build. 18 DR for a 4 Sorc / 1 Fighter. Even if he never casts a spell, those four Sorc levels would make him more un-killable than all other fighters nearby.

Maybe a low core (3) could give you 5/Good, then a higher level core (12?) could raise the number to be equal to 5 + half your sorcerer levels or something, then your core 20 cap could bring it up to 20/Good. Even at the level 12, getting 5+6 DR would be very powerful. I know that the goal is to have an increasing amount of power as you go up the tree, but trees also have to be relatively balanced for low levels.

On a positive note, a 16 Barbarian / 4 Sorc would finally get the DR that he should have! So, that's a win (but a 7 Barb / 5 Sorc could have 25 DR at level 12. Wow!)

My general advice: if anything would make a low-level character or low-level splash crazy powerful, put it in the cores.

Thanks very much, will put these things into the next round, and I think I have enough great feedback to make round 3.

[mezzorco]

Guess I need to goggle what is the Imp version in demon form?

Quasit. It's almost identical to imp

[Silverleafeon]

Quasit. It's almost identical to imp

Cool THANK YOU!

[Silverleafeon]

Round 3 is now up.

Changes ~ well a lot of the suggestions made were taken.


Core 1 Non lawful was changed to non good.
Sorry Paladin splash fans, I don't want to risk a lot of bugs by disabling good alignment features.
If you take this tree the good aligned gods ought to disown you anyway...lol...

Core 3 Alignment based is changed to poison based. Added Passive: Fiendish DR: You gain DR 5 / Good

Core 6 Renamed to Aura of Fiendish Fear {which means it no longer would stack with the Exalted Angel's Angelic presence.

Core 12 Demons get their own Quasit instead of being insulted by an Imp.
Added Passive: Your Fiendish DR is now You gain DR (Sorcerer Level divided by 2) / Good.


Core 18 Globe SLA was removed and replaced with:
Defense of the Pit Multi-select chose one:

Devil: You gain +33% stacking fire absorption

Demon: You gain +33% stacking electric absorption

{Which totals at +45% for the whole tree.}


Capstone Dominate Monster SLA now cost 2 sp instead of being free.
Add: Passive: Your Fiendish DR is now DR 20 / Good.

{Also added recommendation for AoV capstone to increase from 10 to 20 appropriately in the that project's notes.}



Tiers 1 thru 5

DR is moved away from the tiers and into cores as was suggested.


A bluff skill + 25 sp

Skills of the Pit I: Bluff +1/+2/+3 ; 3rd Rank: You gain +25 spell points.

AP Cost: 1 Ranks: 3 Progression: 1 No requirements


along with a variation of Aggravate made it into tier 1 and 2 where the old DR enhancements were.

Sowing Confusion: Your enemy's confusion galvanizes you. Whenever you use bluff, or use an ability that triggers an bluff check, you gain a stacking DR [2/4/6] / Good for the duration of the bluff effect, whether or not the bluff succeeds, or indeed if there is anything present to be bluffed.

AP Cost: 1 Ranks: 3 Progression: 5 Requirement: Skill of the Pit I

Considering bluff lasts for 4 seconds with a 15 second cooldown, I think its ok to add.
{Unless Half Elf would break it, hmm....I think the additional use is high cooldown too.
It would be nice to see Sorcerer bluffing a bit.}
It does grant an interesting variation of skill bonus and fiends seem to love to use bluff so its thematic.


A variation of Arcane Barrier made it into tier 4 and 5 where the old DR enhancements sat.

Outsider Defenses I: Passive: When your HP drops below 50% of maximum, you are immediately protected by an Profane Barrier that reduces all incoming damage by 10% for the next 20/40/60 seconds. This effect may only trigger once every 180/150/120 seconds.

AP Cost: 1 Ranks: 3 Progression: 20 No requirements

Tier Five

Outsider Defenses II: Your profane barrier now reduces 20% of incoming damage.

AP Cost: 1 Ranks: 3 Progression: 30 Requirement: Outsider Defenses I



Power of the Pit +1 universal spell now appears in Tiers 1 thru 4; however the two Path of Heresy spell crits have been reduced downward to Devil: You gain +1% electric spell critical chance Demon: You gain +1% electric spell critical chance

{This was done with the theory that Acolyte of the Skin should serve as a universal tree in contrast to the Savant's heavy evocation specialization, but leaving the thematic devil/demon flair.}


One of the Energy Absorptions was moved to core 18, leaving room for a bit more thematic flair (taking a page out of Beacon):

Inherit Spell Knowledge: Multi-select chose one:

Devil: Add to the list of Sorcerer spells that you can choose from to learn: Order's Wrath as a level 4 spell.

Demon: Add to the list of Sorcerer spells that you can choose from to learn: Chaos Hammer as a level 4 spell.

AP Cost: 2 Ranks: 1 Progression: 10 No requirements


THANKS VERY MUCH!
YOU FOLKS ARE GREAT!