How to improve Fighters in regards to paladins

[Melllllkor]

That would be a bit too much because they wouldn't be able to keep both saves and evasion unlike paladins.

If you want all that just be a paladin.

I do not think we should change things just to accommodate multi class. Fighters easily out DPS paladins now. No need for the change, IMO.

[Teh_Bugbear]

If you want all that just be a paladin.

I do not think we should change things just to accommodate multi class. Fighters easily out DPS paladins now. No need for the change, IMO.

I am sorry but could you repeat this again ?

[Monkey-Boy]

If you want all that just be a paladin.

I do not think we should change things just to accommodate multi class. Fighters easily out DPS paladins now. No need for the change, IMO.

Absolute nonsense.

[Takllin]

I think someone might have been living under a rock the last few months...

[Melllllkor]

I play both. Both well geared and well built. Fighters are still ahead DPS wise. Pallies are more survivable at the cost of top tier DPS. It is as it should be.

That said, the nerf to blitz for top DPS fighter types needs to be rectified, IMO, with perhaps some of the suggestions already mentioned.

I like the idea of inherent melee power and shortened tactical cooldowns for 15+ fighters.

[Monkey-Boy]

I play both. Both well geared and well built. Fighters are still ahead DPS wise.

Al that means is YOUR paladin is worse than YOUR fighter.

[Melllllkor]

Al that means is YOUR paladin is worse than YOUR fighter.

OR it could mean you don't know how to build a decent fighter OR you don't play one.

You know what they say about ASSumptions.....

[Monkey-Boy]

OR it could mean you don't know how to build a decent fighter OR you don't play one.

No, it actually would mean that EVERYONE IN THE GAME BUT YOU is bad at making fighters. What are the odds of that?

[Teh_Bugbear]

OR it could mean you don't know how to build a decent fighter OR you don't play one.

You know what they say about ASSumptions.....

How can you be taken seriously if you post things like that ?

[Takllin]

OR it could mean you don't know how to build a decent fighter OR you don't play one.

You know what they say about ASSumptions.....

First you need to clarify what kind of builds each toon are. Because if you are comparing apples to oranges here than your argument is a moot point.

If they are the same build, then, well it is user error. Math has proven Paladin to be superior to Fighter.

[Grailhawk]

Fighters easily out DPS paladins now.

This means this:

I play both. Both well geared and well built.

is a lie.

[Qhualor]

If they are the same build, then, well it is user error. Math has proven Paladin to be superior to Fighter.

Nice dismissal.

The problem with math is that it is user discretion to what to include in the formula. Every math formula includes standing still fighting single target in what user thinks is BIS and uses basic build. Math is nothing but a base guide to get an idea of where you are at.

[Takllin]

Nice dismissal.

The problem with math is that it is user discretion to what to include in the formula. Every math formula includes standing still fighting single target in what user thinks is BIS and uses basic build. Math is nothing but a base guide to get an idea of where you are at.

Dismissal? He is wrong.

Look you can choose to be ignorant if you want, doesn't matter to me. Paladin has superior DPS to Fighters currently.

[Teh_Bugbear]

Dismissal? He is wrong.

Look you can choose to be ignorant if you want, doesn't matter to me. Paladin has superior DPS to Fighters currently.

Hehe, what else do you expect from Qhualor .

[Teh_Bugbear]

Nice dismissal.

The problem with math is that it is user discretion to what to include in the formula. Every math formula includes standing still fighting single target in what user thinks is BIS and uses basic build. Math is nothing but a base guide to get an idea of where you are at.

Math impacts everything, even if you stand still and drink a pot it is still there. So no, you are wrong.

[Melllllkor]

LOL at the folks claiming math proves anything regarding DPS in this game.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_Lie_with_Statistics

Read that book. It should be an eye opener for you. It is still a standard college textbook in top Universities.

My conclusions are based on Empirical evidence, which in this case is FAR better to use to base any kind of DPS conclusions on in a game where DPS formulas are hidden from everyone, save a few DEVS who probably don't know all the ins and outs of the DPS code themselves.

I maintain that the top DPS in this game is attainable by pure (or nearly pure) fighters. They are not nearly as survivable as pallies, but they can easily out dps them given the same equipment.

[Qhualor]

Dismissal? He is wrong.

Look you can choose to be ignorant if you want, doesn't matter to me. Paladin has superior DPS to Fighters currently.

You are using your own interpretation of math. You are dismissing in generics. Generalizing by saying math that can never be agreed with even by other number crunchers and saying paladins have superior DPS over fighters is generally wrong. You need to compare on equal footing with tons of variables that all number crunchers on these boards easily dismiss as well as the hundreds of scenarios played differently depending on skill level.

Build/DPS math is nothing more than a starting point.

[Teh_Bugbear]

LOL at the folks claiming math proves anything regarding DPS in this game.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_Lie_with_Statistics

Read that book. It should be an eye opener for you. It is still a standard college textbook in top Universities.

My conclusions are based on Empirical evidence, which in this case is FAR better to use to base any kind of DPS conclusions on in a game where DPS formulas are hidden from everyone, save a few DEVS who probably don't know all the ins and outs of the DPS code themselves.

I maintain that the top DPS in this game is attainable by pure (or nearly pure) fighters. They are not nearly as survivable as pallies, but they can easily out dps them given the same equipment.

Math proves otherwise.

Paladins get :

Holy sword : +1 [W] +1 to crit threat range and multiplier
Zeal : +10% doublestrike
Light damage : 7d6 light damage scales with 100% melee power
Extra Melee power : 10 melee power + 5 (sustainable) = 15 MP
Censure outsiders : 5 % chance (stun chaotic or evil outsider for 3 sec)
Slayer of evil 3 : 5% chance to do 500 dmg vs undeads
Divine light : AOE 18d6 light do to nearby undeads scales with 200 melee power

Now what does the fighter get ?

Extra damage ---> +8 damage
Keen edge : +1 critical threat range (limited to your focus weapon)
one with the blade --> earth stance ---> 5% dps
Extra doublestrike 1%-4% doublestrike
extra strength --> +8 strength --> +4 damage
Alacrity --> 15% doublestrike (pure fighter) --> loose earth stance (5% dps)

Have i missed something ? how is that enough to beat all what paladins get for minimal cost ? That is not even enough to compensate for holy sword alone nonethless.

[Monkey-Boy]

I maintain that the top DPS in this game is attainable by pure (or nearly pure) fighters.

Wrong.

[Ayseifn]

Math proves otherwise.

Paladins get :

Holy sword : +1 [W] +1 to crit threat range and multiplier
Zeal : +10% doublestrike
Light damage : 7d6 light damage scales with 100% melee power
Extra Melee power : 10 melee power + 5 (sustainable) = 15 MP
Censure outsiders : 5 % chance (stun chaotic or evil outsider for 3 sec)
Slayer of evil 3 : 5% chance to do 500 dmg vs undeads
Divine light : AOE 18d6 light do to nearby undeads scales with 200 melee power

Now what does the fighter get ?

Extra damage ---> +8 damage
Keen edge : +1 critical threat range (limited to your focus weapon)
one with the blade --> earth stance ---> 5% dps
Extra doublestrike 1%-4% doublestrike
extra strength --> +8 strength --> +4 damage
Alacrity --> 15% doublestrike (pure fighter) --> loose earth stance (5% dps)

Have i missed something ? how is that enough to beat all what paladins get for minimal cost ? That is not even enough to compensate for holy sword alone nonethless.

Wind stance should be more DPS than earth.
Fighters get +3 more DCs to tactics unless the paladin takes fighter levels.
Fighters can still get things like Ninja poison or SA with the best weapon types via monk.
Fighters get more boosts unless the paladin takes fighter levels.
Fighters get Deft Strikes if TWF with good weapons.
Fighters get Ki attacks with good weapons.

That's just fighters right now and yeah probably not enough to close the gap. With the barb changes coming next update though they'll also have access to most of those updates too on top of the bard stuff they also can get and the OP druid things that already exist(are they patched out yet?).

I get that people feel the paladin changes were over the top and I agree, thing is as a paladin player I was ok with them for what I feel are good reasons. Namely that the KotC tree really needed a reboot but that didn't seem to work with Turbines timeframe, the light damage stuff met a pretty negative response so we were stuck with either the crazy good Holy Sword, weak sauce paladins like always, the light damage stuff that met a very negative response or a proper(and delayed) KotC tree. Personally I'm cool with what we got, would have preferred a delayed KotC buff but that'd step on the toes of the barb update and whatever else follows on from that.