How to improve Fighters in regards to paladins

[Neomarica]

The right solution is to ditch fighters entirely and replace them with Warblade.

[Nightmanis]

One with the blade:

Centered with weapon.

OR

+2 more crit range.

MOAR CRITS!!!

[Xianio]

How to improve Fighters?

Remove One with Blade and revamp the Kensai tree to not be a monk/fighter hybrid.

That would let you build in movement speed, save bonuses and semi-evasion options and significantly improve Keen Edge/low level cores without breaking the game with a 'super-monk' class.

That's what I would do.

-----------------

Otherwise, leave them alone. Fighter/Monks are one of the strongest class combos in the game. I don't think they need any buffs at all.

[depositbox]

Fixed.

Teh_Pescha?

[depositbox]

Teh_Kensei.

Centered kensei is far behind in both dps and defense at the same time compared to a paladin, this shouldn't be right.

Why shouldnt it be right?

[legendkilleroll]

Teh_Pescha?

Haha, yep wasn't hard to figure that one out :P

[Nightmanis]

Fixed.

+3 to your crit range before feats? I really wouldn't care to be centered.

Would be cool if they set it up so your shield gained the same benefit.

"When wielding your focus weapon in your main hand and a shield in your offhand, your shield gains all the benefits."

But I'm biased that I love Sword and Board combat.

[depositbox]

Indeed.

Curious why you think that isnt somehow right. Based on what?

[legendkilleroll]

Curious why you think that isnt somehow right. Based on what?

Based on he plays a kensai so it has to be the best

[depositbox]

Based on he plays a kensai so it has to be the best

Ahh. Then he should make some videos of comparative dps beatdowns of Zeligat using the 2 different builds in order to get the one he favors buffed and the offensive build nerfed. I heard it works.

[janave]

They should have exclusive access to tactical feat improvements, make even that SAP more useful.
Fighters should get massive buff to tactical cooldowns for 15+ levels

The choice of doublestrike action boost, technically all and any type melee boosts should be available for a Fighter. Let them dual boost within the class, maybe as a T5 2ap to enable t1 and t2 boost simultaneously.

Fix Kensai Tree by adding another selector to any "you should really be a monk multiclass instead" feature. Something that meaningful for a typical Fighter.

Lower the cost of +1dmg/+1atk nonsense, these arent any good in epics, or add 2-3 melee power to each tier that grants +1dmg, same for the weapon specialization feats.

[Nightmanis]

They should have exclusive access to tactical feat improvements, make even that SAP more useful.
Fighters should get massive buff to tactical cooldowns for 15+ levels

The choice of doublestrike action boost, technically all and any type melee boosts should be available for a Fighter. Let them dual boost within the class, maybe as a T5 2ap to enable t1 and t2 boost simultaneously.

Fix Kensai Tree by adding another selector to any "you should really be a monk multiclass instead" feature. Something that meaningful for a typical Fighter.

Lower the cost of +1dmg/+1atk nonsense, these arent any good in epics, or add 2-3 melee power to each tier that grants +1dmg, same for the weapon specialization feats.

One with the Blade, Multiselector:

The current one

-OR-

+1/2 Crit range, +1/2 Extra action boosts, and your choice of Action Boost: Doublestrike 20%/30%, Damage 10%/20%, or ..... something other than Melee power. They don't need to add more melee power. These action boosts are on a separate cooldown to your normal action boosts.

[Ayseifn]

Fighters were awesome in 2nd edition and only got bad with 3rd so I'd be looking at that split for inspiration on how to buff fighters.

Why were fighters so good in 2nd? Bonus feats that only they could get and best saves in game pretty much, couple that with good HD(1d10 per level) and one of the few classes to get unbound con mod to HD made them spectacular. The bonus feats they got added extra attack per round outclassing every other melee by a mile as well as the weapon spec/focus type dealies to put them on par or ahead of barbs while also leaving even paladins in the dust.

Go back to 2nd to make fighters relevant not silly 3rd splatbooks nor 4th/5th stuff so give them save progression that's the same as monks/FvS or better, a fighters dealio is they fight and that's all they're about. +2 to all saves at level one and then +1 per two levels after that is a good start and with how malleable fighter is maybe it should stop there, I'd also like a high level buff to saves to offset splashing like a +6 to all saves for being 19 fighter or w/e. As for the damage dealing thing and since this is a fighter vs. paladin thread I'd also like a buff to weapon the spec/focus lines, right now they really are just wasted feats that only fighters take. If added to the +dmg/accuracy we also got some melee power so it'd scale well we'd see not only fighters take that line but other classes lament that they couldn't take it.

So Paladins complain they can't justify weap spec/focus over meta magics, rogues have to balance spec+focus vs insightful reflexes OR as an acrobat weapon finesse(something that should be a bigger question for them but I digress), barbs can't fit stunning blow without losing DPS, etc. That focus/spec line should matter to all melee and all should feel bad for not being able to fit it in without losing something else is what I'm getting at.

All that said I want someone with the fighter icon or the paladin icon or the barb icon or the rogue icon or I guess even the ranger icon to be able to dish out the same melee DPS. This weird idea that barbs should do the most DPS followed by fighters is really weird to me.

[Cetus]

It is certainly a complicated situation to get fighters, I'm not talking about centered kensei's, but fighters to get back in the DPS game.

The required feats would be a good start for improvement. Weapon spec/focus feats need massive upgrades. Fighter burst DPS could gain a boost, maybe level 20 fighter capstone adds 30% doublestrike to their haste boost or something.

I don't know. But in the DPS game, pally's should be WAY behind barbs, and fighters should be slightly behind barbs. In my opinion, of course.

[Monkey-Boy]

It is certainly a complicated situation to get fighters, I'm not talking about centered kensei's, but fighters to get back in the DPS game.

The required feats would be a good start for improvement. Weapon spec/focus feats need massive upgrades. Fighter burst DPS could gain a boost, maybe level 20 fighter capstone adds 30% doublestrike to their haste boost or something.

I don't know. But in the DPS game, pally's should be WAY behind barbs, and fighters should be slightly behind barbs. In my opinion, of course.

Melee power is the key.

For starters add MP to the weapon focus/specialization feats.

[Takllin]

Melee power is the key.

For starters add MP to the weapon focus/specialization feats.

They could also make One with the Blade into a multi selector that either gives MP and maybe some Critical Multiplier or something else, and the other option would be as it is on live.

Add melee power to the Cores as well, though I think maybe only the 18 or 20 to give pure Fighters a boost to make them come close to, if not more powerful than Centered Kensai.

[fmalfeas]

They could also make One with the Blade into a multi selector that either gives MP and maybe some Critical Multiplier or something else, and the other option would be as it is on live.

Add melee power to the Cores as well, though I think maybe only the 18 or 20 to give pure Fighters a boost to make them come close to, if not more powerful than Centered Kensai.

I'd say that the Weapon Specialization line could add some Melee Power, or a small amount of Fort Bypass. After all, they are the absolute masters of their weapons. Sure, a Barb or a Paladin or a Ranger knows their weapons well, and wields them with skill...but a Fighter goes beyond skill, and achieves mastery, and a Kensei goes beyond even that, and their weapon of choice becomes an extension of themselves.

[Singular]

Melee power is the key.

For starters add MP to the weapon focus/specialization feats.

Fantastic idea, especially because the weapon focus feats are totally useless, except for unlocking enhancements. It would be super nice if they added 5% melee power. Anyways, it can't be that difficult to balance fighters out - just do a dps calculation paladins vrs barbarians vrs fighters, then fit appropriate melee power to which feats/enhancements, depending on how you want the classes to balance out.

[Nightmanis]

Fantastic idea, especially because the weapon focus feats are totally useless, except for unlocking enhancements. It would be super nice if they added 5% melee power. Anyways, it can't be that difficult to balance fighters out - just do a dps calculation paladins vrs barbarians vrs fighters, then fit appropriate melee power to which feats/enhancements, depending on how you want the classes to balance out.

I always hesitate on the idea of adding melee power, because at some point 10MP is going to be relative to nothing. They seem to be pretty happy to just give out mp (and soon maybe ranged power) like relative candy, instead of it being the kind of epic exclusive deal they originally talked about.

However, if they do go this route I'd say no more than +3MP per feat. Superior would still be the +1 crit range, since that has a 2 feat and 16 level fighter prerequisite.

The Fort bypass is an interesting idea. I'm still an advocate of increasing crit range by another +1 (Superior Weapon Focus?) because that will scale better IMO. Plus it makes sense to me that a fighter would become so perfect with his weapon that he would have full mastery of it. Hence "Superior Weapon Focus."

Also fill that empty space on Kensei Tier 5 with an Action boost modifier. Haste boost now grants +10% doublestrike (action boost bonus), Attack boost now grants +10 MP, Power Surge now gives...+10 Strength? +1/2 action boosts, 2ap per tier.

[Teh_Bugbear]

I suggest changing said feats/enhancements as follows :

- Feat wise :

Weapon focus : X (Prerequisite: Base attack bonus of +1 or higher). grants a +2 to damage with the chosen weapon type X.

Weapon Specialization : (Prerequisite: Fighter (level 4), Weapon focus with the same weapon type). grants 3 melee power.

Greater Weapon Focus : (Prerequisite: Fighter (level 8) and Weapon Focus in a specific weapon type). grants 4 melee power.

Greater Weapon Specialization : (Prerequisite: Fighter (level 12),Weapon Specialization with the same weapon type. grants 4 melee power.

Superior Weapon Focus : (Prerequisite: Fighter (level 16) and Greater Weapon Focus in a specific weapon type. grats 5 melee power.

- Enhancement Wise : Kensei

- Core Abilities :

Kensei Focus: (1 AP, Fighter Level 1). Select a group of weapons as your Kensei focus. Your melee attacks do an additional +2d6 damage. This damage scales with 100% Melee Power.

Spiritual Bond: (1 AP, Fighter Level 3). On Vorpal : Your focus weapon gains a +1 Insight bonus to Enhancement bonus for 20 seconds. This stacks up to 10 times. On timer expiration, 1 stack is removed at a time.

Strike with no Thought: (1AP, Fighter Level 6). When you have a melee weapon equipped in your main hand that is part of your Focus, you gain 10% Doublestrike or 10% Doubleshot (depending on whether your Focus is melee or ranged).

Power Surge : (1 AP, Fighter Level 12). Action Boost: You gain +8 Psionic bonus to Strength for 60 seconds. If you possess the ability to generate Ki, you gain On Hit: +2 Ki.

One Cut: (1 AP, Fighter Level 18). Your melee attacks now do an additional +4d6 damage. This damage scales with 100% Melee Power.

Alacrity: (1 AP, Fighter Level 20). You gain the following effects.

+20% Doublestrike
+20% Doubleshot
+3 Action Boost uses
+4 to the DCs of all Tactical Feats

Enhancements :

- Tier 1 : (Requires Fighter Level 1, Requires Kensei Focus)

Extra Action Boost: (1/1/1 AP). +1/+2/+3 extra action boost.

Weapon Group Specialization: (Requires equivalent Kensei Focus, 2 AP). You gain +1 to hit and damage with your Focus group.

Exotic Weapon Mastery: ( Requires Weapon Group Specialization, Kensei Focus: Crossbows, Axes, or Heavy Blades, 2 AP). Adds exotic weapons to your Kensei Focus.

Action Boost: (1/1/1 AP). Choose One: (Cooldown: 30 seconds.)

Double Strike Boost: Activate to gain +10%/+20%/+30% Action Boost bonus to double strike for 20 secounds.
Haste Boost: Activate to gain +10%/+20%/+30% Action Boost bonus to attack speed for 20 secounds.

Improved Reflexes: (2/2/2 AP). +2/+4/+6 Reflex Save when wearing light or no armor.

- Tier 2 : (Requires Fighter Level 2, 5 APs spent in tree)

Tactics: (1/1/1 AP). +1/+2/+3 to the DC's of your Tactical abilities.

Weapon Group Specialization: (Requires Weapon Group Specialization (Tier 1), Weapon Focus with one weapon type of your Focus group, 2 AP). You gain +1 to hit and damage with one handed weapons and repeating crossbows, and +1 to hit and +2 damage with two handed weapons and non-repeating crossbows.

Dodge: (1/1/1 AP). +1/+2/+3 dodge

Weapon Meditation: (Requires Action Boost, 2/2/2 AP). You gain the ability to Meditate as if you were a monk, even if you are uncentered. While Meditating, every 3/2/1 seconds, if you have a weapon equipped in your main hand that is part of your Focus, you gain a stack of Meditative Focus: You gain 2 Melee Power for 15 secounds. This stacks up to 10 times. On timer expiration, 1 stack of Meditative Focus is removed at a time.

- Tier 3 : (Requires Fighter Level 3, 10 APs spent in Tree)

Critical damage: (1/1/1 AP). +1/+2/+3 critical hit damage (before weapon multipliers)

Weapon Group Specialization: (Requires Weapon Group Specialization (Tier 2) , Weapon Specialization with one weapon type of your Focus group, 2 AP). You gain +1 to hit and damage with your Focus group.

Improved Mobility: (Requires dodge, 2/2/2 AP). +1/+2/+3 Maximum Dexterity bonus and Dodge cap while wearing light or no armor.

Shattering Strike: (Requires Weapon Meditation, 1 AP). Select a melee or ranged special attack that reduces an opponent's fortification. Choose one: (Cooldown: 12 seconds.)

Shattering Shot: Focus Ranged Attack: On Hit : Target loses 15% fortification for 20 seconds. A successful Fortitude save negates this effect. (DC = 10 + Str mod + other modifiers).

Shattering Strike: Focus Melee Attack: On Hit : Target loses 15% fortification for 20 seconds. A successful Fortitude save negates this effect. (DC = 10 + Str mod + other modifiers).

Strength, Dexterity, or Wisdom: (2 AP). Choose one:

+1 Strength

+1 Dexterity

+1 Wisdom

- Tier 4 : (Requires Level 4 Fighter, 20 AP spent in Tree)

Weapon Group Specialization: (Requires Weapon Group Specialization (Tier 3), Greater Weapon Focus with one weapon type of your Focus group, 2 AP). You gain +1 to hit and damage with one handed weapons and repeating crossbows, and +1 to hit and +2 damage with two handed weapons and non-repeating crossbows.

Strength, Dexterity, or Wisdom: (Requires Strength, Dexterity, or Wisdom (Tier 3), 2 AP). Choose one:

+1 Strength

+1 Dexterity

+1 Wisdom

- Tier 5 (Requires Level 5 Fighter, 30 AP spent in Tree)

A Good Death : (Requires critical damage, 1 AP). Select a melee or ranged special attack. Choose one: (Cooldown: 12 seconds).

A Good Death (Ranged): Focus Ranged Attack: On Hit 100 damage. On Critical hit Target takes 250 damage. On Vorpal Target takes 500 damage.

A Good Death (Melee): Focus Melee Attack: On Hit 100 damage. On Critical hit Target takes 250 damage. On Vorpal Target takes 500 damage.

Keen Edge: (Requires Weapon Group Specialization (Tier 4), Improved Critical, 1 AP). You gain a +1 Competence bonus to Critical Threat Range with your Focus weapons.

One With The Blade: (Requires Keen Edge, Deadly Strike, 1 AP). Choose one :

Your melee Focus weapons are considered Centering. While Centered, you may gain various benefits from levels in Monk or as a Grandmaster of Flowers.

You gain a +1 Competence bonus to critical hit multiplier with your focus weapons.

Deadly Strike: (Requires shattering strike, 1 AP). Select a melee or ranged special attack. Choose one (Cooldown: 6 seconds).


Deadly Shot: Performs a ranged attack with +5[W] damage, +1 critical threat range, and +1 Critical Damage Multiplier.

Deadly Strike: Performs a melee attack with +5[W] damage, +1 critical threat range, and +1 Critical Damage Multiplier.


Some feedback would be appreciated