How to improve Fighters in regards to paladins

[Pescha]

Paladins can't use their melee weapons in Earth Stance though, as they don't have One With The Blade. In fact, I don't even remember if the Holy Sword spell works on Handwraps or not. Maybe not...?

PS. A suggestion to improve Fighters compared to Paladins: fix Slayer of Evil to require evil targets, or at least change the name!

All monks are proficient in the use the following ki weapons:
Handwraps (This one might not work in conjugation with holy sword)
Kama
Quarterstaff
Shuriken (This one might not work in conjugation with holy sword)

[Pescha]

Yeah, but they can't use it with good weaponry. That's the role of Kensai, to allow you to be centred with a real weapon. Good catch on Holy Sword not stacking with Keen Edge, but I don't see how Fighter/Monks have a need to have totally equal with Paladins on their critical profiles. +1 range and +1 multiplier on 19-20 (with, eg, Greatswords) is surely close enough to +1 range and +1 multiplier (with, eg, Greatswords) when you consider that Fighter/Monks get more features and more feats than Paladins do? And as for monk weapons, any Paladin / Monk is going to be outdone by a pure Monk ninja with +2 range and +1 multiplier on a 19-20, so what exactly is the issue?

+1 multiplier on a roll of 19-20 (5% dps) is much weaker than a +1 straight multiplier if your threat range is better
than 19-20 not to mention +1 [W] from holy sword, and no i have yet to see a build which uses ninja master using a underpowered weapon and yet it requires you to be lvl 20 making you unable to splash anything else defeating the purpose of having fighter/paladin levels.

[Clatterfist]

Ninjas get +2 range with Kamas and Henshin Mystics get +1 range and +1 multiplier with Quaterstaffs, so Holy Sword doesn't change the landscape there. Is this about Fighters or Monks, anyway?

[Pescha]

Ninjas get +2 range with Kamas and Henshin Mystics get +1 range and +1 multiplier with Quaterstaffs, so Holy Sword doesn't change the landscape there. Is this about Fighters or Monks, anyway?

It is about Paladins and Fighters whether multiclassing or not, you get +2 range with kamas when selecting ninja master which requires you to be a lvl 20 monk defeating the purpose of having fighter/paladin lvls in the first place also about quarterstaves, you are better off taking 2 rogue levels for quick strike and thief acrobatics (15% alacrity) + 15 paladin lvls for Zeal (10% doublestrike) + holy sword which is better than staff specialization anyway since it provides +1 [W] and you still have some remaining lvls to splash monk.

[Lorianna]

Paladins can't use their melee weapons in Earth Stance though, as they don't have One With The Blade. In fact, I don't even remember if the Holy Sword spell works on Handwraps or not. Maybe not...?

PS. A suggestion to improve Fighters compared to Paladins: fix Slayer of Evil to require evil targets, or at least change the name!

It wouldn't work in any case, as to get One With the Blade you have to have at least 8 fighter levels, and if you do that then you won't have access to the Holy Sword spell in the first place, let alone monk levels as well.

[Scrabbler]

not to mention +1 [W] from holy sword

I'm pretty sure the upcoming Holy Sword spell has no +1W. It has +2 attack, +2 damage, +1 crit mult, +1 crit range, another +1 crit range with Imp Crit.

[Clatterfist]

You're the one who brought up Ki weapons. Taking 14 levels of Paladin doesn't let you do anything with Ki weapons that monks can't do already. Kensei, on the other hand, does let you use otherwise inaccessible weapons while centred, and provides a critical profile boost to them that, when combined with Earth Stance, is only slightly behind the Paladin. Is being slightly behind the Paladin that much of a problem when it's an entirely different type of character? Is it a matter of principle - do you think that Kensei should be the pinnacle of weapon critting, or something? I just don't see what the issue is! Kensei monks are strong and will continue to be strong, and Paladin doesn't do the same job that Kensei does because it can't break weapon restrictions like Kensei can.

[Pescha]

You're the one who brought up Ki weapons. Taking 14 levels of Paladin doesn't let you do anything with Ki weapons that monks can't do already. Kensei, on the other hand, does let you use otherwise inaccessible weapons while centred, and provides a critical profile boost to them that, when combined with Earth Stance, is only slightly behind the Paladin. Is being slightly behind the Paladin that much of a problem when it's an entirely different type of character? Is it a matter of principle - do you think that Kensei should be the pinnacle of weapon critting, or something? I just don't see what the issue is! Kensei monks are strong and will continue to be strong, and Paladin doesn't do the same job that Kensei does because it can't break weapon restrictions like Kensei can.

Earth stance does not equal god mode, a straight +1 multiplier from holy sword is much better. Paladins don't need monk stances to do better than fighters they don't even need shadow veil with all the prr available to them.

ps. a paladin doesn't care about ki weapons as long as he has holy sword combined with zeal, regenerating smites and strong prr/drr along with high str boosting tactics and saves from charisma. In fact a pure paladin will be better than a straight 12/6/2 fighter splash, nuff said.

[Lorianna]

Earth stance does not equal god mode, a straight +1 multiplier from holy sword is much better. Paladins don't need monk stances to do better than fighters they don't even need shadow veil with all the prr available to them.

Fighters would have the same amount of PRR as the Paladin has, if they wore heavy armor. However, that means sacrificing the evasion from Monk. But then again, the Paladin isn't going to have evasion either, so...

[Pescha]

Fighters would have the same amount of PRR as the Paladin has, if they wore heavy armor. However, that means sacrificing the evasion from Monk. But then again, the Paladin isn't going to have evasion either, so...

Evasion isn't needed I have seen them take 0 dmg with 180 prr before DR but paladins still have better saves so...

[Clatterfist]

Yes, it's better... and... ? It's not so much massively better than you must stop what you're doing right now and play it forever more. It's the least amount of better it can possibly be, and still be better. We don't have a smaller grade of better than +1 multiplier on a 19-20 to a straight +1 multiplier. I'd expect Barbarians or a pure aggressive Fighter tree to be slightly better still if they ever appear in up-to-date forms; doesn't mean there aren't lots of attractive things about being centred with a hulking great fighter weapon. It's not a bad thing if Paladin abilities actually make them viable in their own right: that is rather the idea. 25% incorporeality is still a strong selling point of the monk even if the guy in heavy armour doesn't get hit as hard as you do when you do get hit.

[Monkey_Archer]

This ,which also is very annoying + being forced to take 3 useless feats.

Maybe improving those 3 useless feats would be a better way to help fighters, rather than just giving them holy sword because paladins have it...

[Pescha]

Maybe improving those 3 useless feats would be a better way to help fighters, rather than just giving them holy sword because paladins have it...

Good suggestion, each feat should give 5 melee power.

[Clatterfist]

Stronger Weapon Focus is definitely something I could get behind. I wouldn't mind seeing more good feat lines for Fighters to choose from, either.

[Pescha]

Yes, it's better... and... ? It's not so much massively better than you must stop what you're doing right now and play it forever more. It's the least amount of better it can possibly be, and still be better. We don't have a smaller grade of better than +1 multiplier on a 19-20 to a straight +1 multiplier. I'd expect Barbarians or a pure aggressive Fighter tree to be slightly better still if they ever appear in up-to-date forms; doesn't mean there aren't lots of attractive things about being centred with a hulking great fighter weapon. It's not a bad thing if Paladin abilities actually make them viable in their own right: that is rather the idea. 25% incorporeality is still a strong selling point of the monk even if the guy in heavy armour doesn't get hit as hard as you do when you do get hit.

A +1 straight multiplier is better than a fixed +1 multiplier on a roll of 19-20 if you threat range is better than 19-20. shadow veil is not needed with that much prr applying before DRR resulting in 0 dmg taken on ee difficulty.

[Lorianna]

Evasion isn't needed I have seen them take 0 dmg with 180 prr before DR but paladins still have better saves so...

They must have had a bunch of DR/-, then. On the test server I was running around with my paladin at something like 220 PRR and still getting hit for double-digit damage by chaff mobs. And yeah, Paladins have better saves. They're lacking things Fighters get, and vice versa.

Stronger Weapon Focus is definitely something I could get behind. I wouldn't mind seeing more good feat lines for Fighters to choose from, either.

Weapon Focus (and to a lesser extent Specialization) are kind of massively overshadowed at this point. A feat for +1 to hit is pretty much garbage in the epic game, and +2 damage, while good at low levels, becomes more or less irrelevant once people reach 11th and start equipping green steel.

Maybe make Focus grant +3 melee power, and specialization grant +5-6?

[Pescha]

They must have had a bunch of DR/-, then. On the test server I was running around with my paladin at something like 220 PRR and still getting hit for double-digit damage by chaff mobs. And yeah, Paladins have better saves. They're lacking things Fighters get, and vice versa.

Fighters are better only feat wise rest is bs.

[Lonnbeimnech]

One thing they could do is give fighters some bonus feats. Like say an extra one at level one and another one every even level after that, so that they end up with 11 extra feats. Maybe have their capstone give 15% double strike to balance things out a bit.

[Pescha]

They must have had a bunch of DR/-, then. On the test server I was running around with my paladin at something like 220 PRR and still getting hit for double-digit damage by chaff mobs. And yeah, Paladins have better saves. They're lacking things Fighters get, and vice versa.



Weapon Focus (and to a lesser extent Specialization) are kind of massively overshadowed at this point. A feat for +1 to hit is pretty much garbage in the epic game, and +2 damage, while good at low levels, becomes more or less irrelevant once people reach 11th and start equipping green steel.

Maybe make Focus grant +3 melee power, and specialization grant +5-6?

signed, all 3 feats are pretty much garbage and need to be better than what we have atm.

[Pescha]

One thing they could do is give fighters some bonus feats. Like say an extra one at level one and another one every even level after that, so that they end up with 11 extra feats. Maybe have their capstone give 15% double strike to balance things out a bit.

They already have that, but thats not enough. Actually they only get to spend 8 feats, not couting 3 useless feats to qualify for weak edge.