Theory Crafting: Eldritch Swashbuckler

[pelaaja]

I've been now having one little build idea here, but I'm not sure if it's any good.

Eldritch Swashbuckler (Warforged/Bladeforged 13 Sorcerer/4 fighter/3 Bard)

The thing I tried to strive here is simple: An eldritch knight which also benefits from Bard's Swashbuckling. The fighter levels are also there for the incoming update.

Stat contribution:

14 STR
8 DEX
14 CON
14 INT
6 WIS
16 CHA

Bladeforged can put the remaining points into STR or DEX, whichever they want. You can also eat some tomes to try to get OC into the build

Levelling should go:
1 Bard
4 Sorc
2 Bard
2 Fighter
2 Sorc
1 Fighter
7 Sorc
1 Fighter

The 2 Fighter levels at lvl 8 and 9 would be important to get for the feats (BAB +6), and also 1 level of fighter to get BAB to +8 at lvl 12

Feats:

1: SWF
3: PA
6: Quicken
8: (Fighter) Shield Mastery
9: Mithral Body
9: (Fighter) ISWF
12: Improved Critical: Piercing
15: Improved Shield Mastery
18: GSWF
20: (Fighter) Improved Shield Bash

After that, you can choose whatever you want really for epic feats. For example:

21: Cleave
24: OC
26: (ED) Perfect Single Weapon Fighting
27: Maximize
28: (ED) Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting

The enhancements could go like this:

Eldritch Knight:

1 Eldritch Strike
1 Spellsword x 3
3 Toughness III
3 Improved Magic Armor III
3 Improved Shield III
2 Martial Training
2 Light Armor Prof.
1 Arcane Barrier
2 CHA x 2
3 Shield Bashing III
2 Scroll & Wand Mastery II
3 Elemental Resistance III
1 Tenser's Transformation
2 Eldritch Shield
3 Doublestrike III
2 Eldritch Tempest
__________________
38 Total

Swashbuckler:

1 Confidence
3 Blow By Blow III
2 On Your Toes II
1 Swashbuckling
3 En Pointe III
1 Skirmisher
2 Smooth Flourishes
__________________
13 Total

Warforged:

1 Improved Fortification
6 Mechanist III ( II if Bladeforged )
( 6 Commution of Scribing if Bladeforged )
( 4 Toughness II if Warforged
__________________
11 (13) Total

Vanguard:

1 To The Fore
2 Armor Training II
2 Shield Specialization x 3
1 Shield Combat I
2 Fatal Bulkwark
6 Melee Power Boost III
__________________
18 Total

38 + 13 + 11 + 18 = 80 AP.

Of course this is all still theory crafting. And also this isn't supposed to be the highest DPS, more like a flavor build.

What are your thoughts on this build idea?

[Grailhawk]

I think Wizard with enough points in Harper to get INT to damage will be a better Eldritch Knight. Just saying the synergy is higher with Int and Wizard then Sorc.

[Lonnbeimnech]

What are your thoughts on this build idea?

Wizard swashbuckler harper. Int to damage and know the angels for another 1/2 int to damage.

[pelaaja]

I think Wizard with enough points in Harper to get INT to damage will be a better Eldritch Knight. Just saying the synergy is higher with Int and Wizard then Sorc.

Wizard swashbuckler harper. Int to damage and know the angels for another 1/2 int to damage.

...I'm not VIP, and I'm not getting Harper tree when it comes out

[Lonnbeimnech]

...I'm not VIP, and I'm not getting Harper tree when it comes out

But you are willing to buy an alignment change and a lesser heart to make a bladeforged bard?

[pelaaja]

But you are willing to buy an alignment change and a lesser heart to make a bladeforged bard?

I wouldn't since I'd rather use Warforged

[unbongwah]

The EK tree is a lot weaker than SB; everything after Arcane Barrier isn't worth the AP cost, IMHO. I'd rather do something with a bit more bard in it, at least enough to get T5 SB.

[Pilgrim1]

really the point in using charisma or int to attack and dmg is to give you good DC for for various epic destiny abilities.

Notably Energy burst and Hell ball.

Secondly the ability to cast DC spells at a marganly usefull value is can also be quite useful. You dump bard lvls, I agree that wizard is going to be much better for this then sorcer. Pump int, pick up 13 wizard lvls, get a handfull of free feats, maybe mix in some DC boosters of 1 skill (enchantment for disco ball?) and keep your self healing via reconstruct. Also keep in mind, that you might be better with cleric or FvS lvls for heal and divine might. If you pump charisma and go FvS you get still get thoes epic spells.

Of course, your a charisma build with no pally lvls at all.... something to consider.

Good luck

[pelaaja]

Of course, your a charisma build with no pally lvls at all.... something to consider.

Good luck

Paladin Divine Grace Nerf














Note to self: Never ask advice about builds in forums. Your idea is shot down, **** on and thrown into trash

[Grailhawk]

Note to self: Never ask advice about builds in forums. Your idea is shot down, **** on and thrown into trash

The thing with Criticism is you can see it as
1. the expression of disapproval of someone or something based on perceived faults or mistakes.
or
2. the analysis and judgment of the merits and faults of a literary or artistic work.

if you see it as 1 then no you should not post anything as your skin is clearly not thick enough to handle it if you see it as 2 then you would recognize that all posts have provided an alternate approach that has similar results and likely a greater over all value.

Saying Wizard with Int to damage from Harper is more synergistic is positive criticism dismissing it do to RL financial constraints or beliefs is a fair dismissal (though the tree will be unlockable in the future).

Similarly not wanting to deal with a future Nerf is just as fair as suggesting a paladin splash on a charisma based build as it adds a lot of survival.

[pelaaja]

The thing with Criticism is you can see it as
1. the expression of disapproval of someone or something based on perceived faults or mistakes.
or
2. the analysis and judgment of the merits and faults of a literary or artistic work.

if you see it as 1 then no you should not post anything as your skin is clearly not thick enough to handle it if you see it as 2 then you would recognize that all posts have provided an alternate approach that has similar results and likely a greater over all value.

Saying Wizard with Int to damage from Harper is more synergistic is positive criticism dismissing it do to RL financial constraints or beliefs is a fair dismissal (though the tree will be unlockable in the future).

Similarly not wanting to deal with a future Nerf is just as fair as suggesting a paladin splash on a charisma based build as it adds a lot of survival.

So you're saying "Oh, **** that build, this build is much better" Is good criticism? No, it's not. It's like you'd draw a ball and someone says "No, it shouldn't be a ball, it should be a pyramid." No, that's not how criticism goes. Fully disregarding the build the builder is after is like missing a point in a joke.

A real criticism would've pointed out WHY it wouldn't work, tell what could IMPROVE, not scrap the idea, and also still say if the player wants to stick around with the build anyways despite of elitists saying "No, that won't work."

As of still, I fail to see WHY Wizard over Sorcerer, especially when I don't have Harper tree. Yes, INT to damage and to-hit is good, but what's the **** problem about NOT putting points into STR? The biggest DPS items gives STR, not INT. Plus you miss out on a lot of SP for going wizard, especially if yuou're going to spam Tempest, Strike and En Pointe.
Plus I even said I'm NOT looking forward to get the highest damage, and even said that this would maybe be like a flavor build.

What Pilgrim1 said was a step towards beter kind of criticism. Not only he explained WHY INT would be better, but also MENTIONED, but fully scrapped my idea:

something to consider

However, I'm not looking forward to any DC spells at all. This would be more like Juggernaut-kind of build: Spells would be mostly either Buffs or Force Missiles. Besides, the DC wouldn't be good besides of the couple ED spells since I have zero spell focus feats/enhancements. Moreover I probably wouldn't even be in DI or Magister anyways: I'd pick rather LD and Blitz all day.

Moreover about not having paladin in the build: There's not enough feats to choose paladin over fighter, even though the nerf is coming. I'm not avoiding it, it just gives too little of what I want. And then if you suggest to instead go 13 Wiz/3 bard/4 paladin, well that just doesn't work at all IMO. Besides if I really want to get paladin, then I'd take that over bard, having like 14 sorc/4 paladin/2 fighter or something like that, but then the whole build would change (I'd take adamantine body instead of Mithral, for instance, and put much less points into CHA to get more STR). I mean it's a variation, but not really what I looked for here.

[jalont]

So you're saying "Oh, **** that build, this build is much better" Is good criticism? No, it's not. It's like you'd draw a ball and someone says "No, it shouldn't be a ball, it should be a pyramid." No, that's not how criticism goes. Fully disregarding the build the builder after is like missing a point in a joke.

A real criticism would've pointed out WHY it wouldn't work, tell what could IMPROVE, not scrap the idea, and also still say if the player wants to stick around with the build anyways despite of elitists saying "No, that won't work."

As of still, I fail to see WHY Wizard over Sorcerer, especially when I don't have Harper tree. Yes, INT to damage and to-hit is good, but what's the **** problem about NOT putting points into STR? The biggest DPS items gives STR, not INT. Plus you miss out on a lot of SP for going wizard, especially if yuou're going to spam Tempest, Strike and En Pointe.
Plus I even said I'm NOT looking forward to get the highest damage, and even said that this would maybe be like a flavor build.

What Pilgrim1 said was a step towards beter kind of criticism. Not only he explained WHY INT would be better, but also MENTIONED, but fully scrapped my idea:


However, I'm not looking forward to any DC spells at all. This would be more like Juggernaut-kind of build: Spells would be mostly either Buffs or Force Missiles. Besides, the DC wouldn't be good besides of the couple ED spells since I have zero spell focus feats/enhancements. Moreover I probably wouldn't even be in DI or Magister anyways: I'd pick rather LD and Blitz all day.

Moreover about not having paladin in the build: There's not enough feats to choose paladin over fighter, even though the nerf is coming. I'm not avoiding it, it just gives too little of what I want. And then if you suggest to instead go 13 Wiz/3 bard/4 paladin, well that just doesn't work at all IMO. Besides if I really want to get paladin, then I'd take that over bard, having like 14 sorc/4 paladin/2 fighter or something like that, but then the whole build would change (I'd take adamantine body instead of Mithral, for instance, and put much less points into CHA to get more STR). I mean it's a variation, but not really what I looked for here.

You don't need to be so defensive. There are two points.

1.) Will the build work? Answer: Yes, because this game is so easy. You will be able to complete content fine.
2.) Is the build optimal? Answer: No.

So what exactly is your question? It isn't how to make your build optimal, obviously.

[pelaaja]

You don't need to be so defensive. There are two points.

1.) Will the build work? Answer: Yes, because this game is so easy. You will be able to complete content fine.
2.) Is the build optimal? Answer: No.

So what exactly is your question? It isn't how to make your build optimal, obviously.

The question is more like "Would it work on harder difficulties?" and "Are there any TWEAKS (changes on feats, enhancements, level contribution etc.) to do?"

Plus sometimes you have to tell these elitists in the forums that I'm NOT looking to be the top kill stealer in the scoreboard

[mezzorco]

The thing is, if you want to base your build on a single stat, you should be able to max it out.
Having like 20 CHA on a drow build with similar class choices, +2 from racial tree, this makes a build worth to invest into a single stat, IMO.
I know that you did it robot to be able to reconstruct yourself with sorcerer spells, but bards can heal well too. Just consider a flesh build 12bard/6sorc/2ftr, although I know the flavour changes a lot.

All that said, the main problem of this build, to me, seems to be 14 CON with so many d4.
I see your stat distribution is for a 32 point build, maybe a better way to do it is to grab a past life and then make this build a second lifer with 16 CON.
Alternatively, drop STR to 12 and raise CON to 16 on a first lifer. You'll be able to take power attack as soon as you eat a +1 STR tome.

[pelaaja]

The thing is, if you want to base your build on a single stat, you should be able to max it out.

Oh, so Max CHA max CON EKs incoming? Seems like an easy-button right there...

I know that you did it robot to be able to reconstruct yourself with sorcerer spells, but bards can heal well too. Just consider a flesh build 12bard/6sorc/2ftr, although I know the flavour changes a lot.

It would change a lot, but.. *shrug* some fleshling peasants might want it I guess.

All that said, the main problem of this build, to me, seems to be 14 CON with so many d4.
I see your stat distribution is for a 32 point build, maybe a better way to do it is to grab a past life and then make this build a second lifer with 16 CON.
Alternatively, drop STR to 12 and raise CON to 16 on a first lifer. You'll be able to take power attack as soon as you eat a +1 STR tome.

if you're really worried about low HP, you can fix it with WF enhancements. There are +2 CON avaialble there quite well, you know. Plus That's also the reason I picked up Toughnesses from WF tree anyways. But I understand. Could think of running it on second life one day, but that'll take some time

[unbongwah]

Note to self: Never ask advice about builds in forums. Your idea is shot down, **** on and thrown into trash

You asked for advice, you got advice. I'm sorry if it wasn't the self-validation you sought, but them's the breaks.

DPS-wise, Swashbuckler is so much more powerful than EK that it's kinda ludicrous. I've been toying with INT-based WF bard 5 / wiz 15 concepts, which have what I hope is a solid mix of melee & caster DPS with good survivability (decent Dodge, Displacement, Insightful Reflexes, Reconstruct, etc.). Harper will make it even more powerful with Know the Angles.

[Grailhawk]

Plus sometimes you have to tell these elitists in the forums that I'm NOT looking to be the top kill stealer in the scoreboard

LOL, only one elitist in this thread.

[Lonnbeimnech]

You asked for advice, you got advice. I'm sorry if it wasn't the self-validation you sought, but them's the breaks.

DPS-wise, Swashbuckler is so much more powerful than EK that it's kinda ludicrous. I've been toying with INT-based WF bard 5 / wiz 15 concepts, which have what I hope is a solid mix of melee & caster DPS with good survivability (decent Dodge, Displacement, Insightful Reflexes, Reconstruct, etc.). Harper will make it even more powerful with Know the Angles.

Int based with insightful reflexes is a good enough reason for wiz to be better than sorc with cha to...nothing. You throw in int mod *1.5 to damage, wiz looks stronger to me. *shrugs*

[BadSandwitch]

Have you considered field-testing this build out, even if it's still just a theory? Seems like an adequate way to see if it lives up to your expectations. For my personal style of learning, visualizing something in action is best way to see the pros and cons of stuff I do. Maybe make some mental notes and such, and report your findings. Hell if I know what to do in terms of build improvement/optimization.

Also, do you know what your skill points are going to be used for, or do they not matter as much? And why the points into INT? You're taking sorcerer instead of wizard, so unless my ignorance missed something or you are doing it for extra skill points, I don't understand it.

[pelaaja]

Int based with insightful reflexes is a good enough reason for wiz to be better than sorc with cha to...nothing. You throw in int mod *1.5 to damage, wiz looks stronger to me. *shrugs*

Ah, yes... That's a valid reason. Guess either then going wiz or just trying to alter the build so that I'm more like 14 sorc/4 fighter/2 paladin then

Have you considered field-testing this build out, even if it's still just a theory? Seems like an adequate way to see if it lives up to your expectations. For my personal style of learning, visualizing something in action is best way to see the pros and cons of stuff I do. Maybe make some mental notes and such, and report your findings. Hell if I know what to do in terms of build improvement/optimization.

Also, do you know what your skill points are going to be used for, or do they not matter as much? And why the points into INT? You're taking sorcerer instead of wizard, so unless my ignorance missed something or you are doing it for extra skill points, I don't understand it.

Currently I do have a 4 sorc/3 bard WF in Argo where I try to test. So far so good at least, but since it's still level 7, I can't draw any big conclusions

As for the high INT, it's for the skill points. I think I could drop it to 12 and pick up that CON to 16 to increase the HP