Stormreach Shadows: A Comprehensive Stealth Guide

[TeacherSyn]

You worked with Ghoste? Please consider testing or retesting these points.
In truth someone in Wraith form isn't touching the ground (so the epic version of shadowdancer also counts here) and do they should be able to avoid tremor sense. Shroud of the wraith means one should resist Life Sense. I haven't tested this but know that Ghoste took full advantage of wraith form

I know for a fact that at least Shadow Form isn't true floating. You'll be heard if not in Sneak. It's just a cool animation for us players.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

You worked with Ghoste? Please consider testing or retesting these points.
In truth someone in Wraith form isn't touching the ground (so the epic version of shadowdancer also counts here) and do they should be able to avoid tremor sense. Shroud of the wraith means one should resist Life Sense. I haven't tested this but know that Ghoste took full advantage of wraith form

Not worked with, but had the honor of grouping with on a couple of occasions.

Also grouped with Mr. Cow too.

Learned a lot from both of them, in-game on and on the forums.


I do, do some experimenting at times, but not to the extent that those two did.
I usually just want to see what I can get away with.....lol.

I don't have the patience they did.
I make a lot of mistakes, and usually stick with low level stealth stuff, were I can survive when I mess it up.

But I did learn a lot from two of the best stealthers and experimenters we have had.
I owe them both for making the game more fun for me.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

You worked with Ghoste? Please consider testing or retesting these points.
In truth someone in Wraith form isn't touching the ground (so the epic version of shadowdancer also counts here) and do they should be able to avoid tremor sense. Shroud of the wraith means one should resist Life Sense. I haven't tested this but know that Ghoste took full advantage of wraith form

Wraithform just gives a big bonus to Move Silently. (+20 I think) It doesn't prevent prevent detection from stuff like tremorsense.

[redoubt]

Alternatively, instead of having DAs subtract from your bonus (if I read you correctly), why not have tiered bonuses like for trapping (ingenious whatchamacallit), or the Vandal-Ransack bonuses?

e.g.
Insidious Cunning 10%
IC, no DA/red, 15% (or something)
IC, no yellow, 20%
IC, no green, 25-30%

One red and you lose it all. Of course even in my model, a red is dropping you 4% per second.... so, it might not be much different.

Your (or something) should be pretty high. I don't think it would even be worth coding this stuff if the mod didn't come close to evening the time/xp ratio to that of fast moving full group. I.e. I did Spies in the House with a full group today on EE. 150k+ in under 30 minutes and I would not have called our movements a zerg. Stealthing that quest would take well over an hour. I think the insidious cunning (and devious) need to be at least 200% to make up for the time difference.

I think stealthing is cool and I'm waiting for the day I can put my main back into an assassin build, but right the game is heavily stacked against the stealth style and you can't pug that way. If you could get the same xp/min with stealth and minimal kills, I think you could see pugs trying it, but until then I don't think you will ever see a pug choose stealth over conquest. Even the conquest bonus is larger than the best cunning bonus. That is a double whammy: Not only is it a slower way to complete the quest, but it is less xp. (And then you get to consider that agro for assassinate is wonky right now.)

[TeacherSyn]

One red and you lose it all. Of course even in my model, a red is dropping you 4% per second.... so, it might not be much different.

Your (or something) should be pretty high. I don't think it would even be worth coding this stuff if the mod didn't come close to evening the time/xp ratio to that of fast moving full group. I.e. I did Spies in the House with a full group today on EE. 150k+ in under 30 minutes and I would not have called our movements a zerg. Stealthing that quest would take well over an hour. I think the insidious cunning (and devious) need to be at least 200% to make up for the time difference.

I think stealthing is cool and I'm waiting for the day I can put my main back into an assassin build, but right the game is heavily stacked against the stealth style and you can't pug that way. If you could get the same xp/min with stealth and minimal kills, I think you could see pugs trying it, but until then I don't think you will ever see a pug choose stealth over conquest. Even the conquest bonus is larger than the best cunning bonus. That is a double whammy: Not only is it a slower way to complete the quest, but it is less xp. (And then you get to consider that agro for assassinate is wonky right now.)

I'm afraid your assessment of many quests (although not all) is right about XP/min while using stealth. I challenge that this depends on the quest type and size, but generally XP/min is slower in many quests.

That said, if XP is all you're going for, stealth play loses.

But if you want a challenge, especially when holding to your belief that the game is stacked against stealth play, the concept shines.

Killing is easy.

Showing your skill in not killing despite the game making a determined effort to do so, impressive.

Having five other compadres complete that same goal with you: priceless.

[dunklezhan]

Bats - makes sense you wouldn't sneak past them - echolocation won't care if you're invisible or not making noise with your feet. But it still might be a bug.

[redoubt]

I'm afraid your assessment of many quests (although not all) is right about XP/min while using stealth. I challenge that this depends on the quest type and size, but generally XP/min is slower in many quests.

That said, if XP is all you're going for, stealth play loses.

But if you want a challenge, especially when holding to your belief that the game is stacked against stealth play, the concept shines.

Killing is easy.

Showing your skill in not killing despite the game making a determined effort to do so, impressive.

Having five other compadres complete that same goal with you: priceless.

I agree with you on all counts here.

I actually run all the quests in the game as I level up and just need to do them once. (As opposed to running 3 high xp quests 800 times; hyperbole, check.)

But my point is that the xp structure pretty well prevents pug'n stealth style.

[dunklezhan]

I'm afraid your assessment of many quests (although not all) is right about XP/min while using stealth. I challenge that this depends on the quest type and size, but generally XP/min is slower in many quests.

This i have no problem with in terms of game design.

That said, if XP is all you're going for, stealth play loses.

This I would like to see change.

XP/min is indeed clearly irrelevant if you're choosing to play stealth but it's so much harder to achieve, it simply deserves way more XP than it gets. People who can properly stealth DDO quests fill me all up to the top with super-spicey impressed-as-hell sauce and I'd like to see them better rewarded.

...which brings us back to discussion of mechanisms that can't be exploited by invisizerging, which are discussions which have already happened and has generated some really good ideas that no-one seems to have much of a problem with.

...do I hear a "Read by a Dev"? Other than the initial post before the discussion properly started, I mean.

[Saekee]

well, permadeath is also a playstyle that is not about xp/min. It comes down to why one plays. I zerg too. But the scalpel is personally more rewarding than the hammer. Am prepping up to ER then TR into a stealth toon to try to help build & test stuff.

[TeacherSyn]

(. . .)XP/min is indeed clearly irrelevant if you're choosing to play stealth but it's so much harder to achieve, it simply deserves way more XP than it gets. People who can properly stealth DDO quests fill me all up to the top with super-spicey impressed-as-hell sauce and I'd like to see them better rewarded.

...which brings us back to discussion of mechanisms that can't be exploited by invisizerging, which are discussions which have already happened and has generated some really good ideas that no-one seems to have much of a problem with.

...do I hear a "Read by a Dev"? Other than the initial post before the discussion properly started, I mean.

I'll give no argument here. The challenge for the devs is always the introduction of new content while keeping the existing stuff fresh and not causing bugs anywhere. The current trend is to make Eberron quests go Epic or add new loot to the table as they add new locales.

That said, the stealth AI change for me was straight out of left field and a very welcome update that affected all gameplay. It would be great, even if none of our previous suggestions on the subject were possible, to increase the no-kill bonuses...and probably base its reward on the maximum aggro level noted by any mobs in the game based on a percentage of enemies possible in the quest. It wouldn't require changing the content, simply the XP. Such a thing would still give invisizergers no advantage.

[Saekee]

I'll give no argument here. The challenge for the devs is always the introduction of new content while keeping the existing stuff fresh and not causing bugs anywhere. The current trend is to make Eberron quests go Epic or add new loot to the table as they add new locales.

That said, the stealth AI change for me was straight out of left field and a very welcome update that affected all gameplay. It would be great, even if none of our previous suggestions on the subject were possible, to increase the no-kill bonuses...and probably base its reward on the maximum aggro level noted by any mobs in the game based on a percentage of enemies possible in the quest. It wouldn't require changing the content, simply the XP. Such a thing would still give invisizergers no advantage.

I believe this would be done individually for each quest. Programming would probay be easy--just labor involved in assessing invisi-run vs stealth

[nokowi]

Update 19's revamp to the stealth system stoked me, especially when hearing it personally from Tolero and Producer Glin last year at GenCon Indy.

I've enjoyed pushing the new abilities through Kiricletica, a Ninja Spy that has soloed much of the game without any assistance, in stealth, with a low-kill policy.

And I've enjoyed what others have done with the new stealth system as read here.

But still, many people are confused about how it works, or try to use it but with poor, even fatal results. They become discouraged or think the system is "broken."

So, I thought to compile what I've done and what others have described and demonstrated into a concise guide can help those add as much stealth in their game as they'd like. Whether you want to have it handy only for emergencies or as part of a "Stealth Team Six" group, Stormreach Shadows can help you start off your training.

But, in contrast to The Book of Syncletica, this guide is for all classes.
And, this is a guide that asks you directly to help it grow.

There are chapters for each guide for each class in preformatted sections.

Right now, many are empty and in need of players who can detail stealth advantages and tactics, spells and gear found in that class that could be useful. Time prohibits me and Saekee, my assistant editor who's volunteered his time and talent, from playing every class and knowing every trick.

If players have multiclassed options, we'll create subchapters there for them, too. Build information is also welcomed, but you must summarize the highlights of your build; raw data dumps from character creation tools are not acceptable.

I welcome anyone to adopt a class chapter to detail information for classes you have played in stealth.

To adopt a chapter

1. Send me a Private Message with a Google GMail address
2. Note what class chapter you'd like to adopt or
3. Tell me what new sub-chapter for a multiclassed build that you'd like to write

To be an editor, you must have a Google GMail address. It also follows that you must be an active player (played at least 1 hour per week for the last 6 months), as the game's rules change and only an active player will be able to accurately note gear, class trees, skills and the like.

As the managing editor for the guide, I reserve absolute rights of control. I or Saekee will edit any and all content for content, brevity, appropriateness, grammar and the like. If we find that an edit or chapter isn't kosher with serious content or audience problems, we'll write you with a chance to correct it. If I don't hear back from you in a reasonable time, we'll do what is needed for the page, up to and including deletion. The guide has a specific focus and my job is to keep it from sprawling away from that focus.

The guide's content itself is, like DDO Wiki, freely distributable by anyone to any medium. You can lift and copy information to wherever you like.

You don't have to be the greatest writer to contribute, but we require the guide to use proper English grammar and punctuation. Write "before", not "B4": the guide wants to speak English, not Bingo.

Once you're approved, I'll send you back an email and grant you access to the chapter and/or create a subchapter for you.

You may also post brief tips, comments, corrections and content here in this thread.

All contributions will give credit to its writer if desired (forum names only, please).

Enjoy, and let Saekee and I know here if you see anything that needs correction or to express any comments or criticisms.

Great work!

Stealth has been broken, particularly for assassins, since U22. Using the word "broken" is appropriate when your major abilities are not WAI and when it severely hampers you ability to use stealth.

1. Autospotted after assassinate (around corners through walls, ANYONE within a large radius)
2. Autospot after bluff (around corners through walls, ANYONE within a large radius)
3. Grazing Blows while in stealth (that never happen when someone else has agro and never happened prior to U22) --> this is not just a low attack roll, it is incorrect mechanics
4. mobs who are completely unaware of you but you won't get an assassinate roll.

I am pleased to say that these issues seem to be fixed on Lammania, and I am hopeful that U23 will once again have working stealth mechanics.

[TeacherSyn]

Great work!

Stealth has been broken, particularly for assassins, since U22. Using the word "broken" is appropriate when your major abilities are not WAI and when it severely hampers you ability to use stealth.

1. Autospotted after assassinate (around corners through walls, ANYONE within a large radius)
2. Autospot after bluff (around corners through walls, ANYONE within a large radius)
3. Grazing Blows while in stealth (that never happen when someone else has agro and never happened prior to U22) --> this is not just a low attack roll, it is incorrect mechanics
4. mobs who are completely unaware of you but you won't get an assassinate roll.

I am pleased to say that these issues seem to be fixed on Lammania, and I am hopeful that U23 will once again have working stealth mechanics.

Pleased to see a master assassin visit.

I've noted those bugs in the guide from your past thread comments. Glad to know that U23 will see most if not all of those issues fade back.

Looking forward to more of your videos on your YouTube channel as well. I've been stocking up on magical trap parts lately.

[TeacherSyn]

• The Artificer class page is now updated. Enjoy!

[Saekee]

I hope to get some updates in there depending on playtime. Just TR'd, level 3...

[Phaeton_Seraph]

Spencerian:


Is it possible to compile a list of quests that one can actual complete without killing?

I was out of my ED, looking to get some easy-ish XP when it occured to me I'd never done Spies in the House heroic or epic on my Shadar-Kai. Because this was supposed to be easy, and a stealth exercise, I entered on EN.
I was doing really well. Until I got about 70% through and could not proceed until I'd killed a necromancer; there was a grate/gate blocking the middle of a ladder.

At this point, every mob in the area was owly because my traversing back and fourth looking for a lever, until I actually read my updated quest objectives, required I move them around some, and those Water Ellies & Skellies never quite settle down properly after that.

So it got messy. And I advanced. And then I had to kill the Fire Ellies to proceed. That aggravated me so much, after all the time I'd invested in what was supposed to be an easy XP run, that I stalked back to the quest entrance and killed every last mob...



Anyway, so I don't know about the Heroic version, but if you could mention in your stealthy quests list that killing is required in this quest, that would be great.



Notes and Observations

Observed:

• Even when over level, Hypnotic Pattern traps were hit-and-miss with the fleshy mobs here.
• A combination of laying a grease trap and then a noisemaker approx. 2' away from the trap so the mob would basically stand on top of the grease trap worked really well to move and delay mobs. It did not seem to aggro them any more than a plain noisemaker would.
• Using noisemakers to coax mobs onto air vents is both useful and satisfying.

Notes:

• All I had on me were deadly sonic, hypnotic pattern, grease and noisemaker traps.
• If I go back in with the mindset of an assassin and try to stick to only killing fleshies and a few Ellies, I will bring some glitterdust and halt undead traps. If anyone has any first hand experiences with those, please post your observations.

I'd also like to know how, for quests that you can complete with no kills and get the bonus, what's the verdict on misadventures?
Not by my attention, but because of their own idiocy, I had mobs walk into their own traps and nominate themselves for Darwin awards. Would that count against a bonus?

[Saekee]

Spencerian:


Is it possible to compile a list of quests that one can actual complete without killing?

I was out of my ED, looking to get some easy-ish XP when it occured to me I'd never done Spies in the House heroic or epic on my Shadar-Kai. Because this was supposed to be easy, and a stealth exercise, I entered on EN.
I was doing really well. Until I got about 70% through and could not proceed until I'd killed a necromancer; there was a grate/gate blocking the middle of a ladder.

At this point, every mob in the area was owly because my traversing back and fourth looking for a lever, until I actually read my updated quest objectives, required I move them around some, and those Water Ellies & Skellies never quite settle down properly after that.

So it got messy. And I advanced. And then I had to kill the Fire Ellies to proceed. That aggravated me so much, after all the time I'd invested in what was supposed to be an easy XP run, that I stalked back to the quest entrance and killed every last mob...

There are many more; will need to think about it. Need to run right now. Can someone else add there list?



Anyway, so I don't know about the Heroic version, but if you could mention in your stealthy quests list that killing is required in this quest, that would be great.



Notes and Observations

Observed:

• Even when over level, Hypnotic Pattern traps were hit-and-miss with the fleshy mobs here.
• A combination of laying a grease trap and then a noisemaker approx. 2' away from the trap so the mob would basically stand on top of the grease trap worked really well to move and delay mobs. It did not seem to aggro them any more than a plain noisemaker would.
• Using noisemakers to coax mobs onto air vents is both useful and satisfying.

Notes:

• All I had on me were deadly sonic, hypnotic pattern, grease and noisemaker traps.
• If I go back in with the mindset of an assassin and try to stick to only killing fleshies and a few Ellies, I will bring some glitterdust and halt undead traps. If anyone has any first hand experiences with those, please post your observations.

I'd also like to know how, for quests that you can complete with no kills and get the bonus, what's the verdict on misadventures?
Not by my attention, but because of their own idiocy, I had mobs walk into their own traps and nominate themselves for Darwin awards. Would that count against a bonus?

we were reluctant to post quests that one purely stealths, but for epics, I would hit these three in a group:

1. Spies, as you mention, but yeah--there are annoying required kills
2. Old Grey Garl--you can stealth all the way to the red named fight. She is on an island and complains of your addiction to treasure. Wait by door you entered (close it behind you!) and then range her to draw her off the island. Otherwise, you will need to fight her AND a mob. If you pull her to island, once dead, swim to end room. There, you need to fight mobs that drop down--if you throw a sleet storm it is easy enough. On EE I think 13 drop in, EH less
3. the Tide Turns--in first room, don't fight them--stealth to face-off with Tew; wait until he activates, then continue. Only required kills from there are group by shield. Stealth to end; kill Tew; kill boss; stealth to chests.

There are many more; will need to think about it. Need to run right now. Can someone else add there list?

[Phaeton_Seraph]

we were reluctant to post quests that one purely stealths...

I'm not suggesting that pure stealth runs should be anyone's focus, but if one is into stealth, they're good for learning skills and an odd challenge.

And if your guide isn't really interested at all in some pure stealth, it might be good to make it clearer that the focus of the guide is using stealth to avoid killing any mob not directly part of the listed quest objectives, or to absolutely minimise the kill count to only the targets absolutely necessary, or whatever y'all feel your focus/goals are.

Perhaps expand your list to include no-kill quests (if there are any), and for minimal-kill quests maybe list which quests are which, and which mobs are targets and/or add some challenges to make it more interesting.

[Saekee]

I'm not suggesting that pure stealth runs should be anyone's focus, but if one is into stealth, they're good for learning skills and an odd challenge.

And if your guide isn't really interested at all in some pure stealth, it might be good to make it clearer that the focus of the guide is using stealth to avoid killing any mob not directly part of the listed quest objectives, or to absolutely minimise the kill count to only the targets absolutely necessary, or whatever y'all feel your focus/goals are.

Perhaps expand your list to include no-kill quests (if there are any), and for minimal-kill quests maybe list which quests are which, and which mobs are targets and/or add some challenges to make it more interesting.

That is a good set of suggestions! thx

[TeacherSyn]

I'm not suggesting that pure stealth runs should be anyone's focus, but if one is into stealth, they're good for learning skills and an odd challenge.

And if your guide isn't really interested at all in some pure stealth, it might be good to make it clearer that the focus of the guide is using stealth to avoid killing any mob not directly part of the listed quest objectives, or to absolutely minimise the kill count to only the targets absolutely necessary, or whatever y'all feel your focus/goals are.

Perhaps expand your list to include no-kill quests (if there are any), and for minimal-kill quests maybe list which quests are which, and which mobs are targets and/or add some challenges to make it more interesting.

It's not an impossible goal and it's a reasonable request.

In my experience with Kiricletica, I know that virtually all quests require something to kill or something to retrieve. Even in the stealthiest quests, "Blockade Buster" and "Claw of Vulkoor," there is at least one target to kill.

I'll see about revising the chapters that had general lists to give more specific sub-chapters on quests as I can that add tips to avoid kills if a required slay isn't in the objectives.