Requisitioning for Assistance in the Rebirth of my Sacred Knight!

[BadSandwitch]

The long way of saying I need help LR'ing my Paladin and I have sought out the wisdom and ardor of the forums. I made her a while ago when I was extremely new to the game, and now I come back to the server she's on and I know quite a bit more and could do better, but I still need some help.

The only real 'restrictions' for suggestions/build ideas are:
1- First 7 levels are paladin
2- has to be human

Not that that's a huge disadvantage. Before and After I have posted this, I have been reading the forums, especially the paladin section, and have gotten quite a few ideas on what to do, but I do oh so love to hear things in a first-hand kind of way.

I can and will provide feats and such info if needed. Just kind of lazy to do it right now.

Any help, ladies and laddies?

[Khain]

Try this, dps paladin with tanking options, str based, taking 41 vanguard for capstone, 13 sacred defender for 20%hp, 13 harper for meele power, 12 kotc for divine might, exalted cleave and 1 human for damage boost.
feats:
3xthf, improved critical slashing, overwhelming critical, power attack, cleave, great cleave, dwarven axe proficienty, shield mastery, improved shield mastery, perfect thf, perfect twf.




Destiny: LD
twists:
legendary shield mastery, cocoon, optional(confront any foe).




max str, then focus on constitution and charisma.




weapon: dwarven axe(best thunderfoged)
Shield: any large(epic talon)

This is u23 build, also kotc capstone swf build with orb offhand is very good, either way, pure human paladin is best way to go.

[Lotyzon-Chaosbearer]

I would not take Dwarven Axe prof, because imo, that feat is a trap. Not saying that those axes are bad, but the feat is unnecessary. You get a -4 to hit, but I personally never miss except on natural 1s, so for me, that feat is wasted.

[Grailhawk]

I would not take Dwarven Axe prof, because imo, that feat is a trap. Not saying that those axes are bad, but the feat is unnecessary. You get a -4 to hit, but I personally never miss except on natural 1s, so for me, that feat is wasted.

If you are not proficient with a weapon there is a flat 20% miss change not just a -4 penalty. You are missing more then just on a 1.

[Chimeran1]

Try this, dps paladin with tanking options, str based, taking 41 vanguard for capstone, 13 sacred defender for 20%hp, 13 harper for meele power, 12 kotc for divine might, exalted cleave and 1 human for damage boost.
feats:
3xthf, improved critical slashing, overwhelming critical, power attack, cleave, great cleave, dwarven axe proficienty, shield mastery, improved shield mastery, perfect thf, perfect twf.




Destiny: LD
twists:
legendary shield mastery, cocoon, optional(confront any foe).




max str, then focus on constitution and charisma.




weapon: dwarven axe(best thunderfoged)
Shield: any large(epic talon)

This is u23 build, also kotc capstone swf build with orb offhand is very good, either way, pure human paladin is best way to go.

Don't go Dwarven axe, waste of feats.
Grab a CiTW rapier or short sword , use the planar prowess set buff for the + 5 damage + 15 PRR
You save a feat and kick serious a$$ at the same time.
SWF strength build will net you 700-1200 damage crits normal no destiny path, with either of those weapons.

Why human over Bladeforge?
Power of the forge is +20% damage, +4 saves + 30 universal spell power
Weapon attachment damage
Racial seeker
Self repair that's 800-1200 hp instantly for only 6sp
BF immunities
Can drop cacoon twist and replace with sense weakness for better dps

Heal amp? Meh, don't need it, and gear can easily boost it high enough anyway.
Extra feat... Nope can't even come close to the BF racial, power of the forge alone is worth it's weight in plats.

Flesh is for the F2P'ers

[CThruTheEgo]

Don't go Dwarven axe, waste of feats.
Grab a CiTW rapier or short sword , use the planar prowess set buff for the + 5 damage + 15 PRR
You save a feat and kick serious a$$ at the same time.
SWF strength build will net you 700-1200 damage crits normal no destiny path, with either of those weapons.

Dwarven axe because it benefits from both the thf line (glancing blows) and the shield mastery line (doublestrike and PRR). These together would likely outdps CitW weapons even with planar focus.

Why human over Bladeforge?
Power of the forge is +20% damage, +4 saves + 30 universal spell power
Weapon attachment damage
Racial seeker
Self repair that's 800-1200 hp instantly for only 6sp
BF immunities
Can drop cacoon twist and replace with sense weakness for better dps

Heal amp? Meh, don't need it, and gear can easily boost it high enough anyway.
Extra feat... Nope can't even come close to the BF racial, power of the forge alone is worth it's weight in plats.

Flesh is for the F2P'ers

Look at how Khain has the AP distributed. Where are you going to pull the points from to spend in the racial tree? Power of the forge, because it is only burst dps, isn't going to make up the dps loss of dropping divine might from KotC or melee power from harper. You might be able to argue that the recon SLA outweighs 20% hp from sacred defender, but the SLA is kind of redundant on a build that already has sufficient self healing. Bladeforged is for non-self-healing builds. So what would you drop to be able to get the full benefit of bladeforged?

[Khain]

Don't go Dwarven axe, waste of feats.
Grab a CiTW rapier or short sword , use the planar prowess set buff for the + 5 damage + 1i5 PRR
You save a feat and kick serious a$$ at the same time.
SWF strength build will net you 700-1200 damage crits normal no destiny path, with either of those weapons.

Why human over Bladeforge?
Power of the forge is +20% damage, +4 saves + 30 universal spell power
Weapon attachment damage
Racial seeker
Self repair that's 800-1200 hp instantly for only 6sp
BF immunities
Can drop cacoon twist and replace with sense weakness for better dps

Heal amp? Meh, don't need it, and gear can easily boost it high enough anyway.
Extra feat... Nope can't even come close to the BF racial, power of the forge alone is worth it's weight in plats.

Flesh is for the F2P'ers

thf line outperform any citw weapon, +20% attack speed and 5% double strike from vanguard with thf weapon is best bet, or swf with only 30% glancing tf da is still better as tf khopesh. Human is still +2 feats and+15 ap over bf, and its huge on feats starved build, but here is option going bf, as kotc with swf+orb, not taking cleave lines but also lose momrntum swing. or multiclass and losing capstone. For leveling thoug i recomend using swf till you have good daxe.

[Chimeran1]

Dwarven axe because it benefits from both the thf line (glancing blows) and the shield mastery line (doublestrike and PRR). These together would likely outdps CitW weapons even with planar focus.



Look at how Khain has the AP distributed. Where are you going to pull the points from to spend in the racial tree? Power of the forge, because it is only burst dps, isn't going to make up the dps loss of dropping divine might from KotC or melee power from harper. You might be able to argue that the recon SLA outweighs 20% hp from sacred defender, but the SLA is kind of redundant on a build that already has sufficient self healing. Bladeforged is for non-self-healing builds. So what would you drop to be able to get the full benefit of bladeforged?

I'm running a BF paladin right now.
Has all the usable racials, has divine might, has sacred stance ,all I don't have is Harper( cause it's not live )and I got points to spare.
Not sure if you know this, but to get the top tier racials doesn't cost many AP, you can get it with one core and skip most of the other enhancements if you want.

BF is a top self healer, not sure why you are saying BF is for non self healing builds cause the racial repair out performs all the heals and repair spells.

With an epic ring of artificer or similar repair amp on Thunderforge, the crit repair can be over 2000hp ( I have 3x Bladeforge lives )
Because the BF has such an excellent self heal and repair amp, there is no need to waste spell slots on repairs or heals.
Burst?
Power of the forge lasts for 20 seconds and is almost immediately reusable again, it also does not share a cool-down timer with fighter haste boost ( if you opt for fighter levels )
20% damage bonus........ That is .. 20% damage bonus, 15% melee speed, +4 to saves and how many boosts... 11-15 x20 seconds every shrine.
CiTW weapons also benefit from the shield mastery, the rapier tier 4 , red slot meteoric and planar prowess , so that's actually even more PRR because of the shield mastery, thanks for reminding me.

I'm just not sold on humans since BF was released.
I will admit I have not tested U23 content yet and can only go by my own builds and player experience.
The only advantage I see as human is you can TR at lvl 20
When all is said and done.....Swashbuckler dps will still dominate

[Khain]

I'm running a BF paladin right now.
Has all the usable racials, has divine might, has sacred stance ,all I don't have is Harper( cause it's not live )and I got points to spare.i
Not sure if you know this, but to get the top tier racials doesn't cost many AP, you can get it with one core and skip most of the other enhancements if you want.

BF is a top self healer, not sure why you are saying BF is for non self healing builds cause the racial repair out performs all the heals and repair spells.

With an epic ring of artificer or similar repair amp on Thunderforge, the crit repair can be over 2000hp ( I have 3x Bladeforge lives )
Because the BF has such an excellent self heal and repair amp, there is no need to waste spell slots on repairs or heals.
Burst?
Power of the forge lasts for 20 seconds and is almost immediately reusable again, it also does not share a cool-down timer with fighter haste boost ( if you opt for fighter levels )
20% damage bonus........ That is .. 20% damage bonus, 15% melee speed, +4 to saves and how many boosts... 11-15 x20 seconds every shrine.
CiTW weapons also benefit from the shield mastery, the rapier tier 4 , red slot meteoric and planar prowess , so that's actually even more PRR because of the shield mastery, thanks for reminding me.

I'm just not sold on humans since BF was released.
I will admit I have not tested U23 content yet and can only go by my own builds and player experience.
The only advantage I see as human is you can TR at lvl 20
When all is said and done.....Swashbuckler dps will still dominate

iam not sure about if swash will be still dps king after swf nerf comming in u23. I can crunch some math to prove this. And bf self healing is amazing, no offense here.

[CThruTheEgo]

I'm running a BF paladin right now.
Has all the usable racials, has divine might, has sacred stance ,all I don't have is Harper( cause it's not live )and I got points to spare.
Not sure if you know this, but to get the top tier racials doesn't cost many AP, you can get it with one core and skip most of the other enhancements if you want.

That's great, but we aren't talking about a build for now. This is a build for after U23. You don't have harper because it's not live, and you don't have vanguard because it's not live. Khain put 41 points into vanguard for the capstone. Altogether, those 41 AP will provide a lot of dps - 20% alacrity, 5% doublestrike, etc. My point above still stands - you would have to sacrifice a lot to get the bladeforged racial enhancements. So I ask you again, based on Khain's distribution of AP listed above, what would you drop to pick up the bladeforged racial enhancements?

BF is a top self healer, not sure why you are saying BF is for non self healing builds cause the racial repair out performs all the heals and repair spells.

With an epic ring of artificer or similar repair amp on Thunderforge, the crit repair can be over 2000hp ( I have 3x Bladeforge lives )
Because the BF has such an excellent self heal and repair amp, there is no need to waste spell slots on repairs or heals.

Bladeforged recon SLA is the top method of self healing, there's no denying that. What I said is that it's redundant on a build that already has sufficient self healing. On a build that already has sufficient self healing, you simply don't need a better source of healing. On such a build, it is arguably a waste of AP to get the recon SLA since it is not necessary.

Burst?
Power of the forge lasts for 20 seconds and is almost immediately reusable again, it also does not share a cool-down timer with fighter haste boost ( if you opt for fighter levels )
20% damage bonus........ That is .. 20% damage bonus, 15% melee speed, +4 to saves and how many boosts... 11-15 x20 seconds every shrine.

Power of the forge is an action boost, which means you have limited uses of it. That is why it is burst dps. It is not consistent dps. You only have 5 action boosts to start with and a pure paladin does not get enhancements to boost this. You could wear various items to get more, but then you're stuck with a useless item taking up a slot until you use those boosts. You can also get 3 more from legendary dreadnaught. No matter how you look at it, it is limited burst dps.

The universal spell power is not needed on a melee build, and the bonus to healing that it provides should not be needed. It should be easy enough to reach no fail saves on a paladin so the +4 to saves is also not needed. Given the already high PRR that a pure S&B paladin will have, the 10 PRR from power of the forge will add, at most, another 3% damage mitigation, probably less, so that's not significant.

Also, human gets damage boost (also 20%) for only 1 AP, which can also be used simultaneously with class boosts and therefore provides the exact same burst dps as power of the forge for a much cheaper cost.

CiTW weapons also benefit from the shield mastery

But only Nightmare will also benefit from the thf fighting line simultaneously. You're missing the synergy there. Besides, a tier 2 Thunderforged will always outdps a CitW weapon. Do the math and you'll see for yourself.

[Chimeran1]

That's great, but we aren't talking about a build for now. This is a build for after U23. You don't have harper because it's not live, and you don't have vanguard because it's not live. Khain put 41 points into vanguard for the capstone. Altogether, those 41 AP will provide a lot of dps - 20% alacrity, 5% doublestrike, etc. My point above still stands - you would have to sacrifice a lot to get the bladeforged racial enhancements. So I ask you again, based on Khain's distribution of AP listed above, what would you drop to pick up the bladeforged racial enhancements?



Bladeforged recon SLA is the top method of self healing, there's no denying that. What I said is that it's redundant on a build that already has sufficient self healing. On a build that already has sufficient self healing, you simply don't need a better source of healing. On such a build, it is arguably a waste of AP to get the recon SLA since it is not necessary.



Power of the forge is an action boost, which means you have limited uses of it. That is why it is burst dps. It is not consistent dps. You only have 5 action boosts to start with and a pure paladin does not get enhancements to boost this. You could wear various items to get more, but then you're stuck with a useless item taking up a slot until you use those boosts. You can also get 3 more from legendary dreadnaught. No matter how you look at it, it is limited burst dps.

The universal spell power is not needed on a melee build, and the bonus to healing that it provides should not be needed. It should be easy enough to reach no fail saves on a paladin so the +4 to saves is also not needed. Given the already high PRR that a pure S&B paladin will have, the 10 PRR from power of the forge will add, at most, another 3% damage mitigation, probably less, so that's not significant.

Also, human gets damage boost (also 20%) for only 1 AP, which can also be used simultaneously with class boosts and therefore provides the exact same burst dps as power of the forge for a much cheaper cost.



But only Nightmare will also benefit from the thf fighting line simultaneously. You're missing the synergy there. Besides, a tier 2 Thunderforged will always outdps a CitW weapon. Do the math and you'll see for yourself.

Cheers for the breakdown, makes sense.

[Chimeran1]

thf line outperform any citw weapon, +20% attack speed and 5% double strike from vanguard with thf weapon is best bet, or swf with only 30% glancing tf da is still better as tf khopesh. Human is still +2 feats and+15 ap over bf, and its huge on feats starved build, but here is option going bf, as kotc with swf+orb, not taking cleave lines but also lose momrntum swing. or multiclass and losing capstone. For leveling thoug i recomend using swf till you have good daxe.

Is the SWF + Orb mainly a dps build?
If I didn't want to tank and just wanted a dps Paladin, what would you recommend for weapon setup?