Pure Human Paladin TWF

[Kenzan]

I was thinking of doing a pure paladin for my next life. I already have to cleric past lives.
My plan is to do Knight of the Chalice for maximum damage with two weapon fighting khopeshes.
I would like some help with the feat/enhancements.


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 04.20.02
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Media
Level 20 Lawful Good Human Male
(20 Paladin)
Hit Points: 342
Spell Points: 318

BAB: 20/20/25/30/30
Fortitude: 23
Reflex: 16
Will: 13

Starting Ending Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Base Stats Modified Stats
(36 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20) (Level 20)
Strength 16 24 27
Dexterity 15 17 17
Constitution 15 18 18
Intelligence 8 11 11
Wisdom 8 11 11
Charisma 16 19 23

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Strength used at level 3
+1 Tome of Dexterity used at level 3
+1 Tome of Constitution used at level 3
+1 Tome of Intelligence used at level 3
+1 Tome of Wisdom used at level 3
+1 Tome of Charisma used at level 3
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7
+3 Tome of Strength used at level 11
+3 Tome of Constitution used at level 11
+3 Tome of Intelligence used at level 11
+3 Tome of Wisdom used at level 11
+3 Tome of Charisma used at level 11

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20)
Balance 4 14.5
Bluff 3 6
Concentration 6 27
Diplomacy 3 6
Disable Device n/a n/a
Haggle 3 6
Heal -1 0
Hide 2 3
Intimidate 3 6
Jump 3 8
Listen -1 0
Move Silently 2 3
Open Lock n/a n/a
Perform n/a n/a
Repair -1 0
Search -1 0
Spellcraft -1 0
Spot -1 0
Swim 3 8
Tumble n/a 9.5
Use Magic Device n/a n/a

Level 1 (Paladin)
Skill: Balance (+2)
Skill: Concentration (+4)
Feat: (Selected) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Khopesh
Feat: (Deity) Follower of the Sovereign Host
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Cleric
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Cleric
Feat: (Human Bonus) Two Weapon Fighting

Level 2 (Paladin)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)

Level 3 (Paladin)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack

Level 4 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)

Level 5 (Paladin)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)

Level 6 (Paladin)
Skill: Balance (+0..5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Oversized Two Weapon Fighting

Level 7 (Paladin)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)

Level 8 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+0.5)

Level 9 (Paladin)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting

Level 10 (Paladin)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+0.5)

Level 11 (Paladin)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+0.5)

Level 12 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons

Level 13 (Paladin)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+0.5)

Level 14 (Paladin)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+0.5)

Level 15 (Paladin)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting

Level 16 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+0.5)

Level 17 (Paladin)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+0.5)

Level 18 (Paladin)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness

Level 19 (Paladin)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+0.5)

Level 20 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+0.5)
Enhancement: Human - Human Versatility: Damage Boost (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Human - Human Adaptability: Strength (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Human - Human Versatility: Attack Boost (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Human - Human Adaptability: Charisma (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Human - Action Surge: Strength (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Human - Action Surge: Strength (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Human - Improved Recovery (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Human - Action Surge: Charisma (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Human - Ambidexterity (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Human - Ambidexterity (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Human - Ambidexterity (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Human - Improved Recovery (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Human - Heroism (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Human - Improved Recovery (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Human - Greater Heroism (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Fiendslayer I (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Courage of Heaven (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Fiendslayer II (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Knighht of the Chalice (Pal) - Improved Courage of Heaven (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Fiendslayer III (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Champion of Good (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Extra Turning (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Extra Turning (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Extra Turning (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Extra Smite (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Extra Smite (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Divine Might (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Divine Might (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Divine Might (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Extra Smite (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Extra Smite (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Vigor of Life (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Exalted Smite (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Exalted Smite (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Exalted Smite (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Strength (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Censure Demons (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Vigor of Life (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Strength (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Censure Outsiders (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Vigor of Life (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Holy Retribution (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Holy Retribution (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Holy Retribution (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Sealed Life (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Holy Bastion (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Divine Righteousness (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Extra Lay on Hands (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Extra Lay on Hands (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Extra Lay on Hands (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Sacred Armor Mastery (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Sacred Armor Mastery (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Sacred Armor Mastery (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Bulwark Aura (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Bulwark Aura (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Bulwark Aura (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Charisma (Rank 1)

[unbongwah]

Does it have to be pure? A ftr or monk splash would help out with extra feats.

I would drop OTWF and Toughness for Cleave+GC or a couple of metamagics or maybe Dodge & something else.

[Kenzan]

Does it have to be pure? A ftr or monk splash would help out with extra feats.

I would drop OTWF and Toughness for Cleave+GC or a couple of metamagics or maybe Dodge & something else.

No, it doesnt have to be pure. I dont think i'll be spending much time at epic levels.
I was wondering about Cleave and Great Cleave if they would be good for twf.
I plan to use two khopeshes, would the twf line would good enough?
As for the splash, i'd splash 2 levels of fighter (cuz I dont own monk)
thanks for the reply

[Seikojin]

No, it doesnt have to be pure. I dont think i'll be spending much time at epic levels.
I was wondering about Cleave and Great Cleave if they would be good for twf.
I plan to use two khopeshes, would the twf line would good enough?
As for the splash, i'd splash 2 levels of fighter (cuz I dont own monk)
thanks for the reply

Not many would think the cleaves are worth it because it interrupts your attack chain. But 3 times yesterday the cleaves I had helped finish the dragons and giants together in Tor elite at level. After the two reinvigorated.

[Purkilius]

Note in around 2 to 3 weeks the paladin tree will change.

I would change some feats but I am not saying you made some wrong choices but some testing has me convinced...

PA for Precision because I like to crit undead and constructs + I feel Precision is better boss dps which TWF excels at.

Toughness for Quicken when you are out of Lay on Hands a quickened Cure Serious Wounds will save your life!

Oversized Two Weapon Fighting for Stunning Blow you can craft a decent stunning khopesh for your offhand.

Splashing 2 fighter levels is wise if it is only for heroic leveling esp for haste boost and a better stunning dc with those 2 extra feats there are some good choices but that needs to be addressed when you have made your choice, gl

[Psiandron]

As has been noted, Update 23 will be out before to long and you may want to take that into consideration. For one thing, going pure won't necessarily hurt/weaken your build.

One major suggestion that I would make, and keep in mind that I am an inveterate TWFer, you should choose a different fighting style. I can understand if you've been doing it for a while and have the weapons and all, but you can run in SWF or S&B using the same weapons. More importantly, by using SWF or S&B (with the modified Sacred tree and the new Vanguard tree) you'll be able to have a character that can be effective at attacking while moving and can gain full effect from Cleave and GC (as well as Momentum Swing and Lay Waste, although you indicate that you're not planning on running much epic).

Best of luck and have fun.

[Kenzan]

First of all, thank you to everyone that responded to my thread! (Y)

I read up on update 23 and it does wonders for melee classes especially paladin.
This will be my 3rd life and I wanted to run twf because my last 2 lives have been S&B but they didnt have much dps. And with the new update, twf will be doing a little more dps so I'm looking forward to it.
I've taken everyone's advice into consideration and will be making some changes to the build. The only thing I'm insure of is whether or not Oversized twf is necessary. (2 khopeshes)

[Psiandron]

First of all, thank you to everyone that responded to my thread! (Y)

I read up on update 23 and it does wonders for melee classes especially paladin.
This will be my 3rd life and I wanted to run twf because my last 2 lives have been S&B but they didnt have much dps. And with the new update, twf will be doing a little more dps so I'm looking forward to it.
I've taken everyone's advice into consideration and will be making some changes to the build. The only thing I'm insure of is whether or not Oversized twf is necessary. (2 khopeshes)

OTWF can be useful if your to-hit bonuses aren't that strong. I know that's pretty obvious, but there it is. With holy sword, I'm guessing it will be unnecessary. Once you hit level 14 you should dominate. And, yeah HS is the spell you want to take at 14. A GS weapon with HS cast on it will become the equivalent of an epic weapon. You should pwn heroic content at that point.

As a TWF you will see a huge increase in DPS compared to S&B now on live. However, you would see better numbers if you switched to one of the other fighting styles or stayed S&B and went with Vanguard. Here, check this thread out: Official Vanguard Feedback thread.

Anyway, Regardless I'm sure that you'll have fun.

[unbongwah]

If you're really having to-hit problems, Precision > OTWF and has the added bonus of -25% Fortification. Plus it's the only combat stance which applies to ranged atks, not that this is a ranged build - but it could be!

[Psiandron]

If you're really having to-hit problems, Precision > OTWF and has the added bonus of -25% Fortification. Plus it's the only combat stance which applies to ranged atks, not that this is a ranged build - but it could be!

Remember though that Precision is mutually exclusive with Power attack. And, if you pick up cleaves as feats, they won't work. I have no idea about the new enhancement cleaves. They don't require PA, but whether they work with Precision on, I have no idea.

Personally though, I'd rather use OTWF rather than precision, but that's maybe just me.

[Purkilius]

Remember though that Precision is mutually exclusive with Power attack. And, if you pick up cleaves as feats, they won't work. I have no idea about the new enhancement cleaves. They don't require PA, but whether they work with Precision on, I have no idea.

Personally though, I'd rather use OTWF rather than precision, but that's maybe just me.

I tried it out on lama and it worked

I vote for Precision! Did a TWF ranger not to long ago with both PA and Precision and I ended up using Precision 90% of the time...

[Psiandron]

I tried it out on lama and it worked

I vote for Precision! Did a TWF ranger not to long ago with both PA and Precision and I ended up using Precision 90% of the time...

That's interesting. I guess that the -25% to fort could actually outweigh the -5 to damage. I've never thought to take it as my melees don't tend to have trouble hitting, but I may have to reconsider.

[Wipey]

Cleave and Great Cleave feats work perfectly fine with Precision.
Only LW and Momentum require PA ( mainly for "charging" Blitz on Monkcher on live with Precision for example ).

As for the OP, Empower Heal, Quicken instead of Toughness and otwf and UMD if they plan to raid / play some higher EEs and stuff.

[Kenzan]

i did some thinking and remodelled the build with the fighter splashes. With it i only have two questions:
1. When should I take the stunning fist feat
2. What should I take as my lv 18 feat.
Everything seems pretty decent

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 04.20.02
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Chronoz
Level 20 Lawful Good Human Male
(2 Fighter / 18 Paladin)
Hit Points: 320
Spell Points: 284

BAB: 20/20/25/30/30
Fortitude: 23
Reflex: 14
Will: 11

Starting Ending
Abilities Base Stats Base Stats
(36 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 16 24
Dexterity 15 17
Constitution 15 18
Intelligence 8 11
Wisdom 8 11
Charisma 16 19

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Strength used at level 3
+1 Tome of Dexterity used at level 3
+1 Tome of Constitution used at level 3
+1 Tome of Intelligence used at level 3
+1 Tome of Wisdom used at level 3
+1 Tome of Charisma used at level 3
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7
+3 Tome of Strength used at level 11
+3 Tome of Constitution used at level 11
+3 Tome of Intelligence used at level 11
+3 Tome of Wisdom used at level 11
+3 Tome of Charisma used at level 11

Starting Ending
Base Skills Base Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20)
Balance 4 14.5
Bluff 3 4
Concentration 2 4
Diplomacy 3 4
Disable Device n/a n/a
Haggle 3 4
Heal -1 0
Hide 2 3
Intimidate 3 4
Jump 3 13
Listen -1 0
Move Silently 2 3
Open Lock n/a n/a
Perform n/a n/a
Repair -1 0
Search -1 0
Spellcraft -1 0
Spot -1 0
Swim 3 7
Tumble n/a n/a
Use Magic Device 5 15.5

Level 1 (Paladin)
Skill: Balance (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+2)
Feat: (Human Bonus) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Khopesh
Feat: (Deity) Follower of the Sovereign Host
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Cleric
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Cleric
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting

Level 2 (Paladin)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)

Level 3 (Paladin)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Precision

Level 4 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skkill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)

Level 5 (Paladin)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)

Level 6 (Paladin)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Empower Healing Spell

Level 7 (Paladin)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)

Level 8 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Two Weapon Fighting

Level 9 (Paladin)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons

Level 10 (Paladin)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Jump (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)

Level 11 (Fighter)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Two Weapon Fighting

Level 12 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Jump (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Quicken Spell

Level 13 (Paladin)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Jump (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)

Level 14 (Paladin)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Jump (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)

Level 15 (Paladin)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Jump (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Stunning Blow

Level 16 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Jump (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)

Level 17 (Paladin)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Jump (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)

Level 18 (Paladin)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Jump (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Turning

Level 19 (Paladin)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Jump (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)

Level 20 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Jump (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)

[unbongwah]

If you're not going pure pally for capstone + extra lvl 4 spells, then pal 15 will be the new "sweet spot" for MCed pallies, which gets you two lvl 4 spells (Zeal + Holy Sword). There's not much gained from pal lvls 16-18; lvl 18 cores are still weaksauce, IMHO.

I would consider pal 15 / rgr 4 / ftr 1: the heavy rgr splash gets you a bunch of free feats (use them to pick up Manyshot - Holy Sword applies to bows as well as melee weaps), Ram's Might, and +10% offhand from Tempest (90% total w/GTWF); while the ftr splash adds another feat and extra action boost (also cheaper Haste Boost). I'm working on such a split for my next F2P-ish friendly build using drow.

[daniel7]

If you're not going pure pally for capstone + extra lvl 4 spells, then pal 15 will be the new "sweet spot" for MCed pallies, which gets you two lvl 4 spells (Zeal + Holy Sword). There's not much gained from pal lvls 16-18; lvl 18 cores are still weaksauce, IMHO.

I would consider pal 15 / rgr 4 / ftr 1: the heavy rgr splash gets you a bunch of free feats (use them to pick up Manyshot - Holy Sword applies to bows as well as melee weaps), Ram's Might, and +10% offhand from Tempest (90% total w/GTWF); while the ftr splash adds another feat and extra action boost (also cheaper Haste Boost). I'm working on such a split for my next F2P-ish friendly build using drow.

That looks like a fun way to knock out a pally life, then hang out and see how well you do for a few more levels.

To the OP, Are you going to play any past level 20? If so 20 paladin rocks, if you are TRing right away then remember that you only need to think about level 1-19 when multiclassing. In that case you should take your classes according to how it makes it easier to level up.
With this in mind decide how many Paladin levels are important to you. If it's only 15 levels then that leaves 4 more levels free (remember you won't play any at level 20). In that case 2 fighter and 2 monk could be a viable option too.

[daniel7]

So I've been gone for a long time so forgive me if anything I say here is outdated. I've been researching Paladins and Rangers recently because that's what I'm mostly going to be leveling when I come back to DDO next week so I've been briefed on those two classes at least.

My main character, Vindicate, has done 3 paladin past lives. Life one was a sword and board drow I made back when the cap was 10 and sucked bad by time the cap went to level 16, mainly due to game changes and the lack of pally love from the devs. Thankfully I didn't delete her because she did shroud runs and charged all of my cells for free with holy swords. Then when TR came out I dusted her off and did a TR.
Life two was a THF 18pal/2mnk. This was a character that could not die; Great saves, evasion, healing amp, maximize, quicken, LoH, Unyielding Soveriegnty, and enough UMD to use Raise Dead Scrolls, GH Scrolls, and the like I between battles. I knew I was doing another TR at level 20 so the monk levels were an experiment and I did THF just to change it up (crafted lit2 Khopeshes that life).
Life three was a pure TWF khopesh using human paladin. Pretty much played like the last life except I no longer stood and fought in the traps. My UMD wasn't high enough to use Choas Blades at level 12 but with a GH I was able to equip it around level 14 or 15 I think.
I played those builds like a barbarian. I had less HP but I could completely refill my HP bar whenever I wanted.
My advice to you is this:
- Take maximize over empower healing if you are going to TR at level 20.
- Don't bother with UMD skill feat but do put points into it and find items and clicked that will boost it
- If you don't like to relie on trappers take 2 levels of monk
- Get your heals nice and strong and don't wait for a healer to join, post BYOH and go for it
- Most importantly, ignore all of this if you will have more fun doing it your way

[daniel7]

Might want to check to see if your DC will be high enough for Stunning Blow to be effective.

[Kenzan]

Thank you guys so much for the help with the build.
I'll try the build with some ranger splashes and see how well it works out. Seems like it will be a fun build and I'll be able to learn a lot from it.

[daniel7]

Sweet. Post back when you hit 20 and let us know how it worked out.