Should I really forget about Evasion and instead pick Heavy Armor in a Ranger?

[Nayus]

I'm serious.

Light Armor will give you 22 PRR/MRR (82% damage from base 0) with 20 BAB, Heavy Armor will give you 56 PRR/MRR (64% damage from base 0). Evasion means you take 0% damage if you make your save but you'd take 50% damage regardless and then we apply the entire Heavy Armor MRR to reduce the damage even more.
With just the base 56 MRR at Level 20 you would take 32% damage from a Fireball on a successful save... then take Resists, Percentual Protection and additional PRR to the math...

We can now get 20% HP or 6 STR for just 13 AP in Sacred Defender and that's in addition to 25 PRR/MRR and other minor bonuses, but the 20% HP/6 STR is restricted to Medium and Heavy Armor. At that point in time you're taking 25% damage on a successful save, with just your armor and sacred defense on. No resists, nothing.

Seriously, there's no reason to use Light Armor anymore. I'll carry one in my inventory for when Evasion is especifically called out but otherwise I'll be going around in a Heavy Armor 99% of the time, in a Ranger.

[Lonnbeimnech]

I'm serious.

Light Armor will give you 22 PRR/MRR (82% damage from base 0) with 20 BAB, Heavy Armor will give you 56 PRR/MRR (64% damage from base 0). Evasion means you take 0% damage if you make your save but you'd take 50% damage regardless and then we apply the entire Heavy Armor MRR to reduce the damage even more.
With just the base 56 MRR at Level 20 you would take 32% damage from a Fireball on a successful save... then take Resists, Percentual Protection and additional PRR to the math...

We can now get 20% HP or 6 STR for just 13 AP in Sacred Defender and that's in addition to 25 PRR/MRR and other minor bonuses, but the 20% HP/6 STR is restricted to Medium and Heavy Armor. At that point in time you're taking 25% damage on a successful save, with just your armor and sacred defense on. No resists, nothing.

Seriously, there's no reason to use Light Armor anymore. I'll carry one in my inventory for when Evasion is especifically called out but otherwise I'll be going around in a Heavy Armor 99% of the time, in a Ranger.

evasion is 0 damage on a successful save and on a failed save you still get mrr, resistance, absorption, evasive dance etc. No, heavy armor is not better than that. It is better than it was tho.

[Qhualor]

Take epic reflex saves if your evasion isnt very good.

I only see this as a problem for Rangers if they were splashed heavily or poorly built. My pure Ranger will stick with light armor.

[Enoach]

I'm serious.

Light Armor will give you 22 PRR/MRR (82% damage from base 0) with 20 BAB, Heavy Armor will give you 56 PRR/MRR (64% damage from base 0). Evasion means you take 0% damage if you make your save but you'd take 50% damage regardless and then we apply the entire Heavy Armor MRR to reduce the damage even more.
With just the base 56 MRR at Level 20 you would take 32% damage from a Fireball on a successful save... then take Resists, Percentual Protection and additional PRR to the math...

We can now get 20% HP or 6 STR for just 13 AP in Sacred Defender and that's in addition to 25 PRR/MRR and other minor bonuses, but the 20% HP/6 STR is restricted to Medium and Heavy Armor. At that point in time you're taking 25% damage on a successful save, with just your armor and sacred defense on. No resists, nothing.

Seriously, there's no reason to use Light Armor anymore. I'll carry one in my inventory for when Evasion is especifically called out but otherwise I'll be going around in a Heavy Armor 99% of the time, in a Ranger.

First this is an interesting question, especially since Evasion is only useful against Reflex Save Damage.

Now on a successful save you will take 0 damage
With MRR you will take reduced damage - Regardless of Save or Fail. You do get additional damage reduction for non-reflex spell damage.

So in the end you need to determine if you will take less damage with MRR or Evasion.

Personally I think there is still more Reflex based damage then non-Reflex based damage in the game currently. I would say as a Ranger with Evasion and a Good or Better Reflex save you will be ahead. However, if your Reflex save is low you might be better off creating a Heavy Armor Archer using Fighter as the Primary class and not worry about Evasion at all.

[Shade_z]

I think you will also limit your dodge, get spell failures and a skill penalty (not very important though)

[Nayus]

But evasion only works against effects that allow a saving throw, PRR is greatly reducing your physical damage income.

Physical. Damage. My main doesn't have evasion and he worries much more about physical damage than any caster.
My point is that, not only it's giving you a lot of stacking /DR but you're also taking very little magical damage, almost making Evasion overkill.

Take a 1000 points of fireball and make the calcs...

(1000 * 0.5 for saving * 0.5 easily acquirable MRR * 0.9 Middle-Scale Shipbuff (best ship is 0.85) * 0.8 basic % reduction item) - 45 resists = 135 damage. And that's from a 1000 Fireball. Most spells base damage is one third of that.

(300 * 0.5 * 0.5 * 0.9 * 0.8) - 45 = 9 points of damage.

Nevermind my previous statement, it's not "almost overkill", it's DEFINITELY overkill.

I'm not sure if 45 Resists applies at the end of calculation though, so it might be a lot more than that but when I look at all the PRR... and cheap extra 20% hp from Sacred Defense.

[ArcaneArcher52689]

I'm serious.

Light Armor will give you 22 PRR/MRR (82% damage from base 0) with 20 BAB, Heavy Armor will give you 56 PRR/MRR (64% damage from base 0). Evasion means you take 0% damage if you make your save but you'd take 50% damage regardless and then we apply the entire Heavy Armor MRR to reduce the damage even more.
With just the base 56 MRR at Level 20 you would take 32% damage from a Fireball on a successful save... then take Resists, Percentual Protection and additional PRR to the math...

We can now get 20% HP or 6 STR for just 13 AP in Sacred Defender and that's in addition to 25 PRR/MRR and other minor bonuses, but the 20% HP/6 STR is restricted to Medium and Heavy Armor. At that point in time you're taking 25% damage on a successful save, with just your armor and sacred defense on. No resists, nothing.

Seriously, there's no reason to use Light Armor anymore. I'll carry one in my inventory for when Evasion is especifically called out but otherwise I'll be going around in a Heavy Armor 99% of the time, in a Ranger.

How are you getting 22/56 MRR?

Light armor should grant 10MRR
Heavy armor should grant 30MRR.
The feats only grant PRR.

[Bridge_Dweller]

If you're not making the saves and don't have Improved Evasion from the top tier of Tempest then yes, it makes sense.

Though you really won't see the "god mode" defense like you're seeing on the YouTube videos without a defender stance boosting stuff up.

[Nayus]

The release notes say "in addition to".

Light Armor: 10 PRR, 10 MRR if armor has enchantments. This is in addition to the current PRR bonus of 2+(Base Attack Bonus)/2).
Heavy Armor: 30 PRR, 30 MRR if armor has enchantments. This is in addtion to the current PRR bonus of 6+Base Attack Bonus).

Huh... I wonder if they fixed Body Feats though? It would be a loss of 26 PRR/MRR in Adamantine Body...

@BridgeDweller
Again, you're only considering magical damage. And as for magical damage, I was considering making my saves this entire time. You tak 50% damage if you make your save, without evasion, then you add MRR, ship buffs % reduction, gear % reduction and plain 45 (30 + ship) resists and you're taking very little damage.
Yeah, 1 > 0 but PRR reduces physical damage income and it was greatly boosted this update.


EDIT: Durr, then it's 22/56 PRR and 10/30 MRR... can anyone check if we're getting that PRR BAB bonus to MRR as well, or only the plain +x bonus?

[ArcaneArcher52689]

The release notes say "in addition to".

Light Armor: 10 PRR, 10 MRR if armor has enchantments. This is in addition to the current PRR bonus of 2+(Base Attack Bonus)/2).
Heavy Armor: 30 PRR, 30 MRR if armor has enchantments. This is in addtion to the current PRR bonus of 6+Base Attack Bonus).

Huh... I wonder if they fixed Body Feats though? It would be a loss of 26 PRR/MRR in Adamantine Body...

@BridgeDweller
Again, you're only considering magical damage. And as for magical damage, I was considering making my saves this entire time. You tak 50% damage if you make your save, without evasion, then you add MRR, ship buffs % reduction, gear % reduction and plain 45 (30 + ship) resists and you're taking very little damage.
Yeah, 1 > 0 but PRR reduces physical damage income and it was greatly boosted this update.


EDIT: Durr, then it's 22/56 PRR and 10/30 MRR... can anyone check if we're getting that PRR BAB bonus to MRR as well, or only the plain +x bonus?

it wasn't when i logged in last week.

[Kawai]

heavy armor should be =20% runspeed

[droid327]

Physical. Damage.

Heavy Armor caps your Dodge pretty low. That affects your physical mitigation, and ameliorates the lower PRR for going in Light armor.

Plus, you're only looking at *base* PRR/MRR. You can enhance Light armor just as easily as Heavy with Sheltering items etc.; that lessens the "PRR gap" between the two.

Basically, to really answer this question you'd need to know 2 things:

-The max Dodge you could reasonably achieve in an endgame situation with both Heavy and Light armor
-The max PRR/MRR you could reasonably achieve for both armor weights

THEN you could figure out if Heavy Armor's MRR outweighs the mitigation from Improved Evasion+Light armor MRR (I doubt it), and if Heavy Armor PRR+low Dodge outweighs high Dodge+Light Armor PRR (more plausible).

[Grailhawk]

THEN you could figure out if Heavy Armor's MRR outweighs the mitigation from Improved Evasion+Light armor MRR (I doubt it), and if Heavy Armor PRR+low Dodge outweighs high Dodge+Light Armor PRR (more plausible).

QTF.

The way I see it it depends on gear and build.

[PsychoBlonde]

With MRR you will take reduced damage - Regardless of Save or Fail. You do get additional damage reduction for non-reflex spell damage.

Not really--MRR doesn't apply to ALL spell damage. Some types ignore it, such as force/untyped damage--basically the big stuff that doesn't give a reflex save anyway goes right through MRR.

[GeoffWatson]

Not really--MRR doesn't apply to ALL spell damage. Some types ignore it, such as force/untyped damage--basically the big stuff that doesn't give a reflex save anyway goes right through MRR.

Polar Ray is the main non-evasion spell damage (in my experience) and MRR works against it.

Geoff.

[slarden]

I'm serious.

Light Armor will give you 22 PRR/MRR (82% damage from base 0) with 20 BAB, Heavy Armor will give you 56 PRR/MRR (64% damage from base 0). Evasion means you take 0% damage if you make your save but you'd take 50% damage regardless and then we apply the entire Heavy Armor MRR to reduce the damage even more.
With just the base 56 MRR at Level 20 you would take 32% damage from a Fireball on a successful save... then take Resists, Percentual Protection and additional PRR to the math...

We can now get 20% HP or 6 STR for just 13 AP in Sacred Defender and that's in addition to 25 PRR/MRR and other minor bonuses, but the 20% HP/6 STR is restricted to Medium and Heavy Armor. At that point in time you're taking 25% damage on a successful save, with just your armor and sacred defense on. No resists, nothing.

Seriously, there's no reason to use Light Armor anymore. I'll carry one in my inventory for when Evasion is especifically called out but otherwise I'll be going around in a Heavy Armor 99% of the time, in a Ranger.

Sure give it a try and let us know how it works out.

[Nayus]

Sure give it a try and let us know how it works out.

I posted it here precisely because I couldn't decide.

@topic
Well, it also true that the majority of players reaching high dodge are just exploiting Ocean Stance bugged stats.
I do not have much experience with rangers, could anyone layout a 20%+ dodge for me without Ocean Stance? This is for sake of analysis in this thread. Evasion might be overkill now that we have MRR.

You don't need Evasion to make Reflex Saves.

[BigErkyKid]

If you're not making the saves and don't have Improved Evasion from the top tier of Tempest then yes, it makes sense.

Though you really won't see the "god mode" defense like you're seeing on the YouTube videos without a defender stance boosting stuff up.

It is not strictly necessary. Today I rolled a 15 bard, 3 fighter, 2 rogue in lama. Since they have NOT fixed the stalward to level 3 of fighter, I did not have the stance. However, in light armor, with a few enhancements and items I was at 100 PRR (no PLs). With blitz that puts you at 130 or 57% damage reduction.

If you do not use light armor, you can get up to 100PRR only with an item and a plate armor. No stance at all, not counting blitz. That's 50% damage reduction.

If you evasion does not cut it now, dress in plate and you will see a big improvement.

[mezzorco]

I do not have much experience with rangers, could anyone layout a 20%+ dodge for me without Ocean Stance? This is for sake of analysis in this thread.

Well...

3% dodge feat
2% mobility feat
2% spring attack feat
2% combat archery if ranged
3% race enhancements (drow, elf, halfling, morning lord or shadar kai)
3% tempest improved dodge
8% dodge item

TOTAL 23%

On a ranger you shouldn't have troubles fitting dodge feats, however you may be AP-starved or on a race with no dodge enhancements, so it's 18% on a melee and 20% on a ranged toon. This is not counting EDs.

On top of that, there is Elaborate Parry from Tempest (required for improved evasion).
Elaborate Parry gives you up to +30% dodge for 20 seconds every minute. It's capped by maximum dexterity bonus, so it basically gives you dodge chance equal to your max dex bonus for 20 seconds.

[Nayus]

Oh my, is Light Armor still better defense than Heavy Armor then? I'll take BigErkyKid's "100 PRR" for example:

Heavy: 0.92 (8% dodge) * 100 / (100 base + 100 PRR + 25 Stance + 34 PRR Bonus over light) = 35,2% (15.85% with Displacement and Ghostly)
Light: 0.75 (dodge) * (100 /100 base + 100 PRR + 25 Stance) = 33.3% (15% with Displacement and Ghostly)


.____.


Light Armor went through the trouble of maximizing his dodge (and in this case, relied on 3 extra feats and class abilities), Heavy Armor went through the trouble of increasing his dodge cap (and if Bladeforged, it would also cost a feat). Of course, this difference is minimal and using different dodge or PRR numbers won't heavily impact the balance of power. Both options are pretty much the same but I'd say Light Armor was clearly more expensive. It is, the logical choice in this case then, since we're talking about rangers.

One could argue about AC, there's a 15 AC gap from Black Dragonhide to Black Dragonplate.

Plus, if you were deciding between Ranger and something else then TWF has twice as many Deception procs and access to Balanced Attacks twist, I believe this proves a Ranger in Light Armor has better defenses than a Paladin in Heavy Plate.

Okay, I'll be using Light Armor after all then, thank you =)