KOTC Nerfs - Really?

[Coldin]

I don't understand the reasoning behind these. A reduction of 1d6 light damage, and reduced Melee Power from a T4 enhancement. Paladins were not even close to performing well in Live, and at best these changes were just making them competitive with other top of the line build. If we're looking at those Cetus videos, the high performance was more from using a combination of buffs and decent gear than anything unique to the paladin. In fact, the only "Paladin" specific part of the build was that Holy Sword could be used with Falchions.

Not to mention that every single reduction in Melee Power has also been a nerf to KOTC's light damage, the biggest scaling ability tied to Melee Power with it's introduction. So I'd really like to hear an explanation of why these nerfs were merited that doesn't involve referencing a video of someone that already overperforms with a variety of melee builds.

[LordTigerDawn]

I don't understand the reasoning behind these. A reduction of 1d6 light damage, and reduced Melee Power from a T4 enhancement. Paladins were not even close to performing well in Live, and at best these changes were just making them competitive with other top of the line build. If we're looking at those Cetus videos, the high performance was more from using a combination of buffs and decent gear than anything unique to the paladin. In fact, the only "Paladin" specific part of the build was that Holy Sword could be used with Falchions.

Not to mention that every single reduction in Melee Power has also been a nerf to KOTC's light damage, the biggest scaling ability tied to Melee Power with it's introduction. So I'd really like to hear an explanation of why these nerfs were merited that doesn't involve referencing a video of someone that already overperforms with a variety of melee builds.

Still a hundred times better than they were, so no complaints from me.

[HastyPudding]

Paladins have a trade-off of dps for survivability. A paladin is not a barbarian in heavy armor with self-healing. Stop trying to make it into one.

[Coldin]

Paladins have a trade-off of dps for survivability. A paladin is not a barbarian in heavy armor with self-healing. Stop trying to make it into one.

And when Barbarians get their updates, they will shoot right by Paladins in DPS. The fact of the matter here is that Paladins aren't dishing out that much more DPS even with the changes. The bulk of it comes from having access to a crit enhancing spell that is just slightly better in certain circumstances than other similar enhancements.

[goblean]

Paladins have a trade-off of dps for survivability. A paladin is not a barbarian in heavy armor with self-healing. Stop trying to make it into one.

Sorry, what extra survivability do they have? As described the videos showed very little of a Paladin being OP. If you watch the videos he is surviving on BF healing and UMD buffs. None of this is a direct result of being a pure pally, but more to do with play style and build. Now, if the video showed his massive pally AC and PRR saving the day, and LoHs pulling him out of that close shave where his massive pally defenses failed you might have something with your trade-off comment.

[DagazUlf]

Paladins have a trade-off of dps for survivability. A paladin is not a barbarian in heavy armor with self-healing. Stop trying to make it into one.

This assumption might be based off of either A) PnP Paladins, or B) some theory-crafting on DDO paladins. Or maybe even something else entirely?

Regardless, this is not what is going on in actual play of DDO (Live or Lammy).

[SilkofDrasnia]

While I agree with all with what you guys are saying I have to say it will be all so much dust in the wind, Turbine has this nasty nasty habit of listening to a very very small handful that "overperform" like you say and have more ability than 90% of the masses.

[Lonnbeimnech]

While I agree with all with what you guys are saying I have to say it will be all so much dust in the wind, Turbine has this nasty nasty habit of listening to a very very small handful that "overperform" like you say and have more ability than 90% of the masses.

Just make note, then when their class gets it's turn for updating, just call for every nerf you can think of.

[Seljuck]

To,the OP. Log in to Lama, roll pure first life pally, take n4 equipment and TF falchion and try finishing any ee quest like Trial by Fire or anything else. If u can't see any difference from live, then it's time to change game.. I suggest Duke Nukem For more OP power, big numbers etc.

Now seriously. Pally is much more playable now with this changes.

[Wipey]

nvm

[DagazUlf]

While I agree with all with what you guys are saying I have to say it will be all so much dust in the wind, Turbine has this nasty nasty habit of listening to a very very small handful that "overperform" like you say and have more ability than 90% of the masses.

Truth.

[Coldin]

To,the OP. Log in to Lama, roll pure first life pally, take n4 equipment and TF falchion and try finishing any ee quest like Trial by Fire or anything else. If u can't see any difference from live, then it's time to change game.. I suggest Duke Nukem For more OP power, big numbers etc.

Now seriously. Pally is much more playable now with this changes.

TAKE ANY CLASS, and give them a Thunderforged weapon and good gear, and you'll see the exact same thing. Epic Elite is a lot more about gear, buffs, and destiny than it is about class choice. Just because Paladin is better than it was, it doesn't mean much when you're sitting at the bottom of the chain on live.

[zwiebelring]

Since the paladin had a big roleplay aspct in pnp, his dps aspect was specialized but useful...in pnp. In DDO you either foucs on dps aspect o survivability, since roleplay is not existing. So, what do you really want? Another generic high dps melee class, but only with self healing? Come on, don't hide your powercreep demands behind a statement about game balance between paladin and melee dps class.

The paladin class needs to get a distinct niche again but other than raw high dps melee. I am more and more for reverting Divine Crusader ED to a enhancement for paladins or giving them completely new trees out of the plenty available ones in 3.5 splatbooks:

Shining Blade of [lawful good deity]

Fist of Raziel <- my personal most wanted

Pious Templar <- generic melee focused paladin

Avenging Knight

Blackguard <- reason to stay pure paladin^^

[Seikojin]

Paladins have a trade-off of dps for survivability. A paladin is not a barbarian in heavy armor with self-healing. Stop trying to make it into one.

This.

And when Barbarians get their updates, they will shoot right by Paladins in DPS. The fact of the matter here is that Paladins aren't dishing out that much more DPS even with the changes. The bulk of it comes from having access to a crit enhancing spell that is just slightly better in certain circumstances than other similar enhancements.

And you can't make those levels of assumption until it is up for test. Clearly Paladins got a lot stronger in U23, but people will make bards after U23 is out. Same with Barbs. No one wants complete imbalance, so as it stands Pally gets tweaked until it fits right and then is released to the wild.

[Bridge_Dweller]

Pallies are still ridiculous even with this change. Nerf Holy Sword please and give us a reason to actually play a fighter.

[Bridge_Dweller]

TAKE ANY CLASS, and give them a Thunderforged weapon and good gear, and you'll see the exact same thing. Epic Elite is a lot more about gear, buffs, and destiny than it is about class choice. Just because Paladin is better than it was, it doesn't mean much when you're sitting at the bottom of the chain on live.

You haven't played on of these things on lamania have you?

Other than flavor there is NO reason to play any melee other than a paladin as things are now.

[Thar]

Still a hundred times better than they were, so no complaints from me.

but the rest of the pack is 100 times better with just melee power and prr changes so pally's are still behind.

[Thar]

You haven't played on of these things on lamania have you?

Other than flavor there is NO reason to play any melee other than a paladin as things are now.

yes and my fighter barbain out dps's it. yes.. a part barbarian who is another class that needs help.

you can make a case that fighters need buffs. you can't make the case that pally's are not still weaker than other classes. one crit ability at 14 makes some big numbers but over time it's not enough to pull the class up from behind the pack of melees when other classes can do 2x the damage and 1000pt crits with no spells or assistance in trees.

[Annyee]

Ok, lets review. Pallys have poor DPS so they get buffed with mediocre scaling light damage, holy sword, and Melee power that everyone else also receives. Then the mediocre scaling light damage gets nerfed. This is counter productive to bringing Pally DPS up to other melee. Pallys got better yes, but so did everyone else. The two DPS options that pallys had over other melee was holy sword and mediocre scaling light damage. If this goes live nothing has been solved. The gulf of all other melee vs pally DPS remains. All that was done was buffing everyone's DPS.

This effect is partly why DDO has become so wildly unbalanced.

[Bridge_Dweller]

yes and my fighter barbain out dps's it. yes.. a part barbarian who is another class that needs help.

You did something wrong.