Official Vanguard Feedback Thread

[Scrabbler]

The dangerous thing about that is that if it's only slightly weaker or stronger, the other style will be obsolete.

The real danger is that one of those styles exists at all; THF + S&B should not exist. For one thing it's unverisimilar, for another it's unbalancable. That is, it would require new systems to get Vanguard + THF balanced against Vanguard + Scimitar.

[Rull]

The real danger is that one of those styles exists at all; THF + S&B should not exist. For one thing it's unverisimilar, for another it's unbalancable. That is, it would require new systems to get Vanguard + THF balanced against Vanguard + Scimitar.

They should be called glancing blow feats, not THF feats.
Taking 3 more feats should be the balancing factor.
If it's not, more feats should be designed until it is.
If feat-heavy classes are then OP, they should be nerfed until the are not.
Any feat should be a choice. With 20 feats possible on a build you should have at least 50 competative feats to choose from.
I want S&B with a scimitar + 4 new dps feats to deal as much damage as S&B with BS+THF+iTHF+gTHF. And i want a two-handed fighting character itself to deal more damage than either with those 4 new feats.


But until that time... better make them mutually exclusive :-/

[Braegan]

The real danger is that one of those styles exists at all; THF + S&B should not exist. For one thing it's unverisimilar, for another it's unbalancable. That is, it would require new systems to get Vanguard + THF balanced against Vanguard + Scimitar.

Well THF + S&B only works with bastard sword and dwavern axe right?

How would that balance out with S&B with a weapon with a better crit profile like scimitar?

I'm not great at running exact damage calcs, so I am really asking here not trolling. But, wouldn't that kinda equal out?

Better single target DPS via more crits for 3-4 less feats vs Better AOE DPS via glancing blows at the cost of 3-4 feats?

If I am missing something please let me know.

[Grailhawk]

Well THF + S&B only works with bastard sword and dwavern axe right?

How would that balance out with S&B with a weapon with a better crit profile like scimitar?

I'm not great at running exact damage calcs, so I am really asking here not trolling. But, wouldn't that kinda equal out?

Better single target DPS via more crits for 3-4 less feats vs Better AOE DPS via glancing blows at the cost of 3-4 feats?

If I am missing something please let me know.

No you are right Khopesh is still king. I think they are debating the hypothetical Vanguard THF which given the tree is a shield tree does not exist.

[Scrabbler]

I think they are debating the hypothetical Vanguard THF which given the tree is a shield tree does not exist.

Do you have a reason to think that a person with Bastard proficiency and Vanguard core18 won't get both glancing blows and +20% attack speed?

[Grailhawk]

There is a fair possibility that Vanguard capstone + Kensei t5 + Dwarf Axe + GTHF feats will be better than Kensei + Greataxe + GTHF, because the 20% faster swing rate outweighs the base damage of the true THF.

Miss understood this some what doesn't matter though.

If Vanguard > Kensei that's not a real problem there close enough that they are balanced.

Kensei + Vanguard will always be greater then Kensei.

Do you have a reason to think that a person with Bastard proficiency and Vanguard core18 won't get both glancing blows and +20% attack speed?

Core 18 will only get you 15%, but Khoepsh and Scimitar both have significantly better crit rates and the bastard sword (4 feat cost) is less then 10% better then Scimitar and only around 5% better then the Khopesh. This style of play has been in the game for years and has been balanced for years. Vanguard changes nothing in that sense.

[Scrabbler]

Many effects (improved crit, higher attack speed) does favor your mainhand damage over you bash, but at the same time your bash rate also increases.

One might think the rate of offhand bashes scales up as you level through Vanguard... but it turns out the 1 second cooldown means there is barely any growth in that. A Fighter Vanguard goes from bashing on about 15% of attacks at level 1 to 25-30% at level 12+. In comparison, a TWF guy grows from 40% to 80%, or even 90-100%.

And many things like deadly favor them equally. I'm probably missing something, why do you think this will grow skewed?

At first glance you could think that a bonus like Deadly will improve both your bash and mainhand weapon damage by the same proportion. But it actually gives more benefit to the mainhand. Maybe the amount of disparity is small, even too small to bother with? But it's real.

The reason for that is that the shield has bonuses like +3W, which make up a bigger slice of your damage the fewer total bonuses you have. For an extreme example, a Fighter20 Vanguard using non-magical heavy shield and scimitar gets 45 per mainhand hit or 60 per bash, for total 27% of damage from shield bash. Add Deadly10 to both weapons (increasing each by ~13 after crits), and now the proportion of damage from shield has gone down to 23%.

Again, this factor is probably small enough we can ignore it. But it does help illustrate why I'd prefer that instead of sticking +3W onto Shield bash, Vanguard instead add some Meleepower which only applies to hits made with the shield, so the shield damage can scale stronger from buffs like Deadly.

[Scrabbler]

Khoepsh and Scimitar both have significantly better crit rates and the bastard sword (4 feat cost) is less then 10% better then Scimitar and only around 5% better then the Khopesh. This style of play has been in the game for years and has been balanced for years. Vanguard changes nothing in that sense.

Vanguard adds 20% attack speed to a Bastard Sword Fighter while giving 0% to a Greatsword Fighter. (The feat cost is only 1, because both of them have GTHF and neither have Shield Mastery). If the Bastard and Greatsword versions were balanced before, are they still balanced now?

(The Bastard guy does lose some crit by giving up Keen Edge, but I figure the Meleepower makes up for that)

[Grailhawk]

Vanguard adds 20% attack speed to a Bastard Sword Fighter while giving 0% to a Greatsword Fighter. (The feat cost is only 1, because both of them have GTHF and neither have Shield Mastery). If the Bastard and Greatsword versions were balanced before, are they still balanced now?

(The Bastard guy does lose some crit by giving up Keen Edge, but I figure the Meleepower makes up for that)

Yes because the guy with the greatesword should have 19% double strike and Keen Edge from Kensei.

You are mixing up styles with trees. Kensei and Vanguard are close enough to be balanced. THF > Bastard Sword do to 1.5xstr bonus but Bastard Sword can use a shield and take shield feat to make up for that.

I'm not even sure what your point is any more I though you were trying to say that Vanguard with S&B+THF feat was OP. Its not.

[Scrabbler]

Yes because the guy with the greatesword should have 19% double strike and Keen Edge from Kensei.

Kensei does give 19% Doublestrike... but Vanguard gives 5%, and will take 1-2% from Kensei, and can choose to get 8% from shield feats... that's 14% Bastard vs 19% Greatsword. And a lower attack rate means fewer chances for Doublestrike to proc. (Or is it prohibited to get Shield Mastery and GTHF on the same character?)

You are mixing up styles with trees.

Yes, mixing up styles and trees is my point. Vanguard allows you to mix them; even if they added a rule preventing Shield Mastery and THF feats, you can still have GTHF + Vanguard.

[Braegan]

Ok just trying to wrap my head around this and make sure I have facts correct:

THF Feats work with Bsword/Daxe while S&B and can take advantage of increased melee power(TH feats), glancing blows, improved attack speed & shield bashes (vanguard)

Vs.

A weapon with a better crit profile (khopesh for example) will benefit from more crits, improved attack speed & shield bashes (vanguard)

If the above is correct doesn't that make them both pretty close? TBH I would hope THF would pull ahead slightly due to having to spend 3 more feats on it.

I guess what I am trying to figure out is what is better?

a) THF Bsword/Daxe

b) Khopesh

Assume both equally vested in vanguard tree, fighting mobs that are critable, etc.

[Grailhawk]

Kensei does give 19% Doublestrike... but Vanguard gives 5%, and will take 1-2% from Kensei, and can choose to get 8% from shield feats... that's 14% Bastard vs 19% Greatsword. And a lower attack rate means fewer chances for Doublestrike to proc. (Or is it prohibited to get Shield Mastery and GTHF on the same character?).

Which is comparing Vanguard + Kensei to just Kensei which is a flawed argument.

There is nothing wrong with Vanguard + Glancing Blows, Glancing blows are not in and of them selves that much better the 15% double strike. THF's biggest draw is the 1.5x Stat multiplier it always has been that is why so many people have said in the past that you could build a TH Figther with out the feat. The THF feat offer a bit of DPS but not that much.

[Grailhawk]

Ok just trying to wrap my head around this and make sure I have facts correct:

THF Feats work with Bsword/Daxe while S&B and can take advantage of increased melee power(TH feats), glancing blows, improved attack speed & shield bashes (vanguard)

Vs.

A weapon with a better crit profile (khopesh for example) will benefit from more crits, improved attack speed & shield bashes (vanguard)

If the above is correct doesn't that make them both pretty close? TBH I would hope THF would pull ahead slightly due to having to spend 3 more feats on it.

I guess what I am trying to figure out is what is better?

a) THF Bsword/Daxe

b) Khopesh

Assume both equally vested in vanguard tree, fighting mobs that are critable, etc.

All things equal GTHF + Bswrod > Khopesh > Scimitar, however the 3 extra feat only add about 5% more damage then just khopesh and only about 10% more damage then Scimitars at 0 feat. IMO on a fighter sure go for it on every one else not worth the feat.

[Braegan]

All things equal GTHF + Bswrod > Khopesh > Scimitar, however the 3 extra feat only add about 5% more damage then just khopesh and only about 10% more damage then Scimitars at 0 feat. IMO on a fighter sure go for it on every one else not worth the feat.

Gotcha ty for the reply.

Honestly even on a fighter I can think of other feats worth more then just a 5% increase.

[Scrabbler]

Which is comparing Vanguard + Kensei to just Kensei which is a flawed argument.

Does Fighter has a secret 4th tree I've forgotten about, which a Greataxe guy can train to raise his damage compared to Vanguard?

[Grailhawk]

Does Fighter has a secret 4th tree I've forgotten about, which a Greataxe guy can train to raise his damage compared to Vanguard?

Harper. 9% Melee Power and Int to damage also don't forget the 1.5x Str bonus.

[Xianio]

Kensei does give 19% Doublestrike... but Vanguard gives 5%, and will take 1-2% from Kensei, and can choose to get 8% from shield feats... that's 14% Bastard vs 19% Greatsword.

Keep in mind that if you choose to go into epic levels then Vanguards also get another 7% doublestrike from Unyielding -- making the comparison 21% vs 19% doublestrike for Bsword vs Greatsword respectively.

All told, I think pure Fighters have a lot of options to make SB their primary dps method. Not that other options aren't viable, it's just that they multiclass better e.g. kensai fighter/monk with a greatsword.

[Grailhawk]

All told, I think pure Fighters have a lot of options to make SB their primary dps method. Not that other options aren't viable, it's just that they multiclass better e.g. kensai fighter/monk with a greatsword.

U23 changes this though, 14 AP in Defender gives more defense then earth stance, and 12 AP in Harper gives more damage then Knight 41 AP in Kensei leaves 13 AP to spend where you want in short pure Kensei is not slaved to monk any longer you can just see one with the blade as a way to twist A Dance with Flowers.

Capstone Kensei has always been greater DPS then the Figther/Monk/Paladin combos it just used to have no place else to spend AP and horrible defense U23 changes both of these.

All styles seam to be equally viable on a 20 fighter this is a good balance.