Official Vanguard Feedback Thread

[patang01]

Shield Rush moves forward in a straight line a set distance, delivering a shield bash and knock down to everything in that line. Shield Charge, on the other hand, will charge up to a selected enemy at high speeds and deliver the attack at the end of the charge. They have two different functions. They play very differently.

Sev~

Personally I think most people would like to see both happening. One over the other seems almost like a waste of a cool feature. Wouldn't it be more interesting to see a rush knocking everything down, bash the target down and deliver a downward thrust attack? I mean that is what I envision something like a 'rhino' charge.

[deathblaze]

I am logging on to test now but I allready call shenanigans on this big time! Assuming you somehow got blitz to give you 500 BASE damage with a shield bash (first red flag) managed to pull off a x4 crit multi with shield, and bashed a mob with +100% vulnerability (helpless + FoW twist + vulnerable) that's what it would take to achieve that.


That is dream scenario, and very unlikely.

Or rather, whatever they're smoking I'd like to have my hands on that!

[ThomasHunter]

The tree is focused on secondary shield bash procs, not blocking shield bashes. Holding down block will drastically reduce your DPS.

Sev~

I am in the same boat as another poster, but I don't get this. Shield bash has always been about holding down the shift key.

Would you mind clarification on what is meant by this?

I'll also admit that I am surprised that this is a DPS tree (not unhappy with that, just surprised so far). I guess I was thinking this would add PRR/MRR with shield use. While my excitement might be mitigated somewhat, I am hoping that this makes me want to build around this tree and that I am simply "missing the boat" so far. Just thinking out loud, but maybe a quick blurb introducing the tree to players on what it does/how it should be used.

Thanks for listening!

[B0ltdrag0n]

Or rather, whatever they're smoking I'd like to have my hands on that!

I also call no way on a 4k critical blitzing in that tree on a shield bash.

Also after reading the clarifications it is good to see that I can ignore this tree on my toons. It offers nothing that is useful enough in the tier 1-3 abilities nor are the cores attractive enough for me to spend non optimized ap for any character in those abilities.

I also will not use 30+ ap just for the equivilant of fvs wings and lock out tier 5 abilities from my other trees. Sorry.

[Krelar]

I am in the same boat as another poster, but I don't get this. Shield bash has always been about holding down the shift key.

Would you mind clarification on what is meant by this?

Since update 9 (back in 2011) the feat improved shield bash has given you a 20% chance of automatically doing a shield bash when attacking. No need for shift.

Various items can improve or grant this chance as well.

The core abilities are further improving on that automatic chance.

[Severlin]

I am in the same boat as another poster, but I don't get this. Shield bash has always been about holding down the shift key.

Would you mind clarification on what is meant by this?

I'll also admit that I am surprised that this is a DPS tree (not unhappy with that, just surprised so far). I guess I was thinking this would add PRR/MRR with shield use. While my excitement might be mitigated somewhat, I am hoping that this makes me want to build around this tree and that I am simply "missing the boat" so far. Just thinking out loud, but maybe a quick blurb introducing the tree to players on what it does/how it should be used.

Thanks for listening!

Hold down your mouse to attack. Each time you attack with your main hand weapon, even while moving, you have a chance to also do a shield bash attack. The higher your percent chance, the more likely you are to get a free shield bash with each attack. The caveat is when you shield bash you will not get another one for at least one second.

Improved Shield Bash already does this on live, but the chance is so small and it doesn't work on live while moving so most players probably wouldn't notice it.

Sev~

[deathblaze]

Personally I think most people would like to see both happening. One over the other seems almost like a waste of a cool feature. Wouldn't it be more interesting to see a rush knocking everything down, bash the target down and deliver a downward thrust attack? I mean that is what I envision something like a 'rhino' charge.

Exactly what I was thinking!

[bloodnose13]

vanguard tree is exactly what should have been added to defender tree along lowering how many defence related effects is in defnder, now its nearly a certain finger "that shall not be named" to anyone useing defender tree, useing defender, i had to drop everything from kotc and nearly whole racial tree to take enough stuff from vanguard for it to matter.
that aside, we will see a tank wannabes crop out on servers in vanguard tree with just enough of defender to do it right, and i dont think its right. splitting defence and offence for shield alone into two separate trees is no better than setting ap pricecs for one tree so high that there will be NO CUSOMIZATION OF BUILD AT ALL.

i think that vanguard should cap on heavy shields and tower shields should be domain of defender tree, paladin defender tree still does not give tower shield proficiency despite it was asked for around.... um ... years????
so yea, ty devs for makeing defender such a wonderful tree for everyone but defenders.

i would love for dev to explain the logic behind not makeing defender into something more than just a overblown source of defence, like to 5 year old, becouse it eludes me. why defender tree cant be a balanced defendce, attack and utility tree, why its only meant to be a go to for extra turns and some save/prr/ac for every splash/vanguard/kotc............

[PermaBanned]

We have seen shield bash crits of 4000+ internally on level 28 blitzing characters with moderately good equipment. Vanguard might be too good on Lamannia currently, but we want to see how players build and play it.

Sev~

Erm... Any chance you'll share how this was accomplished? I'm talking about relevant build choices, active boosts (Damage Boost, Power Surge etc), maybe a full stack of Blood Rage or a friendly Halfling Bard singing to his Heroic companion?

I mean no offense but, this sounds reminiscent of the "EPA estimated milage" you see in new car commercials that nobody achieves in practical usage...

[Thar]

Unbalancing Shove: When you shield bash, damaged enemies get -1 to Saving Throws for 2/4/6 seconds.

This is showing on my shield when i take stunning shield?

[Thar]

vanguard tree is exactly what should have been added to defender tree along lowering how many defence related effects is in defnder, now its nearly a certain finger "that shall not be named" to anyone useing defender tree, useing defender, i had to drop everything from kotc and nearly whole racial tree to take enough stuff from vanguard for it to matter.
that aside, we will see a tank wannabes crop out on servers in vanguard tree with just enough of defender to do it right, and i dont think its right. splitting defence and offence for shield alone into two separate trees is no better than setting ap pricecs for one tree so high that there will be NO CUSOMIZATION OF BUILD AT ALL.

i think that vanguard should cap on heavy shields and tower shields should be domain of defender tree, paladin defender tree still does not give tower shield proficiency despite it was asked for around.... um ... years????
so yea, ty devs for makeing defender such a wonderful tree for everyone but defenders.

i would love for dev to explain the logic behind not doing defender into something more than just a overblown source of defence, like to 5 year old, becouse it eludes me.

don't forget light shields since devs are forcing some builds to that item now...

[Severlin]

Erm... Any chance you'll share how this was accomplished? I'm talking about relevant build choices, active boosts (Damage Boost, Power Surge etc), maybe a full stack of Blood Rage or a friendly Halfling Bard singing to his Heroic companion?

I mean no offense but, this sounds reminiscent of the "EPA estimated milage" you see in new car commercials that nobody achieves in practical usage...

The whole point of Lamannia is for players to test and see it for themselves. (Hint: it was on a path character leveled to 28 with testdojo equipment, Action Boost running, Blitz maxed, and the enemy just stunned with Stunning Shield.)

Sev~

[poltt48]

Okay so have played with this new tree for last 3 hours and this what I find. With best shield the purple dragon shield out of HH I hit for about 100 damage a shield bash. Crit for about 400 damage. This is with holy sword witch adds more damage btw. This is with full tier 5 abilities and capstone. My weapon main hand weapon damage is less though then if I went with knight of the chalice instead. This tree also lowers my survivability over going tier 5 in knight of the chalice or sacred defender. Now some abilities in tree. Shield rush is useless especially for a tier 5 looks cool and like wings but useless. Disorenting smash is useless especially for a tier 5 since have fire degree burns on my thunderforged along with 99% of melee in game. Shield Riposte is way underpowered with melee power only hitting mobs for low teens. I can get guards that do a ton more damage then that especially for a tier 3 ability. Unbalancing Shove is useless -1 to all saves sucks especially when get into epic content where mobs have 60-80 to there saves. Stunning Shield could not get to stun no matter what I did to increase my stun chance don't know if ability is bugged or getting in 70s for stun was not high enough. Shield Smash was not giving me prr and mrr. All abilities where on same timer so had to choice between shield rush, smashing shield and stunning shield since can only do 1 at time. Played around with this for 3 hours and never once got the capstone to stun the enemy. This is also a all or nothing kind of enhancement line. Really does not do much to splash a little from the tree since they add very little alone it the combination of 15 skills together that make your shield bashes powerful and actually hit. Personally not liking the tree trading main hand weapon damage and survivability for shield weapon damage.

[Xianio]

Any chance of making shields be affected by Imp. Crit Bludgeoning?

While +2 threat range is great, without imp. crit. the critical hit range is still pretty average.

[bloodnose13]

don't forget light shields since devs are forcing some builds to that item now...

i meant all shield sizes, heavy and smaller

[Seikojin]

Okay so have played with this new tree for last 3 hours and this what I find. With best shield the purple dragon shield out of HH I hit for about 100 damage a shield bash. Crit for about 400 damage. This is with holy sword witch adds more damage btw. This is with full tier 5 abilities and capstone. My weapon main hand weapon damage is less though then if I went with knight of the chalice instead. This tree also lowers my survivability over going tier 5 in knight of the chalice or sacred defender. Now some abilities in tree. Shield rush is useless especially for a tier 5 looks cool and like wings but useless. Disorenting smash is useless especially for a tier 5 since have fire degree burns on my thunderforged along with 99% of melee in game. Shield Riposte is way underpowered with melee power only hitting mobs for low teens. I can get guards that do a ton more damage then that especially for a tier 3 ability. Unbalancing Shove is useless -1 to all saves sucks especially when get into epic content where mobs have 60-80 to there saves. Stunning Shield could not get to stun no matter what I did to increase my stun chance don't know if ability is bugged or getting in 70s for stun was not high enough. Shield Smash was not giving me prr and mrr. All abilities where on same timer so had to choice between shield rush, smashing shield and stunning shield since can only do 1 at time. Played around with this for 3 hours and never once got the capstone to stun the enemy. This is also a all or nothing kind of enhancement line. Really does not do much to splash a little from the tree since they add very little alone it the combination of 15 skills together that make your shield bashes powerful and actually hit. Personally not liking the tree trading main hand weapon damage and survivability for shield weapon damage.

I can see how the bash is very strong and can get to high values. I made a 14/6 fighter swash, went to t5 in swash, t3 and 4 in vanguard and stalwart and the shield bashing there were critting for 400-1600 depending on boosts and state the enemy was. And of a bigger note, I had stunning blow, lay waste, trip, stunning shield, and low blow for putting them in a coup/helpless state. Some of which can reset lay waste.

[Thar]

Testing shield bash more in vanguard.

I can't get any bash attacks from the new light shield silver linings?

the other one works ok. is this stupid bad luck or what? attacked the kobolds for like 5 mins watching combat log and no bludgeoning damage. switched shields and bam within 3 swings had a bash attack on the other shield???

Edit - shield also doesn't work with shield smash or stunning shield. saying failed action does not meet the requirements for this action.

[Grailhawk]

+[w]
2.50 Base Purple Dragon Shield 
0.25 Guild
1.00 Holy Sword
1.00 Combat Brute
0.50 Improved Power Attack
3.00 Vanguard Cores 
8.25 Total

+Damage 
28 Str Bonus (66 Str Assumed)
08 Enchantment 
11 Deadly
05 Power Attack
04 Profaine
02 Holy Sword
03 Divine Favor 
05 Advancing Blows 
04 Vanguard 
03 Vangaurd Core 
73 Total 

Seeker 
10 Item
05 Ex Item
06 Guild
06 LD
27 Total

Crit Multiplier 
2 Shield Base 
1 Overwhelming Critical
1 Holy Sword 
1 Devastating Critical (LD)
1 Vangaurd Core 
6 Total 

Melee Power 
10 Shield Feat 
24 Epic Level 8 
18 Epic Destiny Level 6 
10 Vangaurd Tier 5
50 Blitz 
112 Total

Purple Dragon Shield is a 2d6 Weapons so max bash is
8.25*2*6 = 99 Base Weapon
99+ 73 = 172 Base Damage
172+27 = 199 Base Crit Damage (+Seeker)
199*6 = 1194 Max Crit
1194*2.12 = 2531 +MP
2531*1.3 = 3290 +Damage Boost

little more work and I'm sure you could get a bash for 4k especially with a 2d8 shield

[poltt48]

I can see how the bash is very strong and can get to high values. I made a 14/6 fighter swash, went to t5 in swash, t3 and 4 in vanguard and stalwart and the shield bashing there were critting for 400-1600 depending on boosts and state the enemy was. And of a bigger note, I had stunning blow, lay waste, trip, stunning shield, and low blow for putting them in a coup/helpless state. Some of which can reset lay waste.

Don't see how you can do that much damage on my pally best I can get on shield bash with a tower shield is 200 while blitzing and 800-1200 on crit while blitzing. But not surprised that a buckler on a bard would do more damage then a pure fighter or pally with a tower shield can do. Just state of the game right now.

[Xianio]

Purple Dragon Shield is a 2d6 Weapons so max bash is
8.25*2*6 = 99 Base Weapon
99+ 73 = 172 Base Damage
172+27 = 199 Base Crit Damage (+Seeker)
199*6 = 1194 Max Crit
1194*2.12 = 2531 +MP
2531*1.3 = 3290 +Damage Boost

little more work and I'm sure you could get a bash for 4k especially with a 2d8 shield

It would get noticeably higher if a dedicated combat shield was added e.g. Madstone Aegis.

Aegis is a 2[2d10]+8 weapon with a 20x3 crit profile and a 2d12 extra damage on bashes (and +20% chance to bash). All told, I could see well over 4000 in an ideal circumstance.