Official Vanguard Feedback Thread

[KookieKobold]

Please leave your feedback about the Vanguard tree (for both Paladin and Fighter) here!

[Delacroix21]

Aside from the attack speed bonuses from the cores, this tree is really lame. The charge knockdown has a decent DC but as it doesn't work now and the cooldown is unknown we can't evaluate it.


The real problem with this tree is its focus on "shield bash". Look Devs, until you remove the 1 second cooldown on bash it won't matter if you add +10,000% chance to shield bash! as it will still go off the same amount of time. If you guys bothered to test a shield toon before making this tree you would have noticed you ALLREADY bash every second with just the feat, you don't need any more proc chance. Remove the bash animation (use it only when block bashing or the special attacks) and then you can remove the cooldown.


Also the 5% stun on bash is the same (actually worse) as the fighter knockdown on 20 (which is a 5% chance) as this is only a 5% chance at most every second, vs a 5% chance on attack which would be double to quadruple the chance per second based on weapon style due to several attacks per second. Once again, REMOVE the animation and 1 second cooldown.

[G_Lich]

Aside from the attack speed bonuses from the cores, this tree is really lame. The charge knockdown has a decent DC but as it doesn't work now and the cooldown is unknown we can't evaluate it.


The real problem with this tree is its focus on "shield bash". Look Devs, until you remove the 1 second cooldown on bash it won't matter if you add +10,000% chance to shield bash! as it will still go off the same amount of time. If you guys bothered to test a shield toon before making this tree you would have noticed you ALLREADY bash every second with just the feat, you don't need any more proc chance. Remove the bash animation (use it only when block bashing or the special attacks) and then you can remove the cooldown.


Also the 5% stun on bash is the same (actually worse) as the fighter knockdown on 20 (which is a 5% chance) as this is only a 5% chance at most every second, vs a 5% chance on attack which would be double to quadruple the chance per second based on weapon style due to several attacks per second. Once again, REMOVE the animation and 1 second cooldown.

Good feedback - bad attitude. You're testing, don't act like devs are dumb, they put it on paper, they push in front of PC, pc gets a chance to mull it over, and they get to work programming. They don't bother to think insanely hard about details because you will. They are playing a speed game right now, and the likelihood that something gets missed is high - Maybe they're using the 1s as a cap? Maybe that was a goal, no matter the sources, 1s prevents stacking because numbers have been crunched for 1s. In any case the passive aggressive BS vs. devs needs to calm down in general.

I hate the fact that I'm turning into a fanboy, but it's not unearned. DDO is on the upswing IMO.

Testing Vanguard:
1. Shield rush is attractive as T5 but I hate that I can't take it with other stuff, it beats the other fighter T5's but not coup-de-grace. T4 please.
2. the +1's are really going to add up. good.
3. The bash % increases are good, the point in previous post still stands.
4. Shield block 5/8/30? - not 12? 30% seems high like permanent lesser displacement+5, if this is the case, wow, that's the T5 to shoot for.
5. Myrmidons seems boring but MAN these +1's are starting to add up. 25AP = Deadly: 8 stacking in this tree so far.
6. Shield rush - could use knockdown - I mentioned this a long time ago talking about other games like NW using a shield dash, how we had draconic wings doing the same thing, but not for shields.
7. MP Boost comes w/ 0 charges, you may know this, Also doesn't activate timer when other boosts are used (Doublestrike tested)
8. Stunning Shield is great - Highest ability modifier? More things need to do this with the variety that's been added to the game lately. - Since it's a shield bash attack that interrupts attack sequence (this may be OK w/ a dwarven axe, replacing twitch w/ this ) THIS is a good use for shieldbash.


Overall - a good option for both ftr and pally - Kind of boring though - I mean offensively it's great, but I'm not sure the shield bashes are attractive enough to trigger myself given the slow attack speed. I don't like doing something actively for the 50% chance it will work, if I am doing something actively, it should work. The passive shieldbash is good, great even, but that is where the abilities are going to see use, not in me hitting shift+attack, the math isn't there, when i could be making 3+ main swings in that time. The +1's make up for this, but that's all they are, the minmaxer in me just said "shut up you idiot" but the game player said, yeah still kinda meh. Maybe it's just not my style though.

P.S. Stalwart still requires 6 ftr, at least tooltip says so.

[Alavatar]

In any case the passive aggressive BS vs. devs needs to calm down in general.

While I don't have any feedback at the moment, I just want to QFE this bit. I don't understand why so many players seem to have such a sense of entitlement when it comes to a past-time.

[Alavatar]

For ease of armchair developer feedback (for those of us that cannot get onto Lammania at the moment) here is the current iteration of Vanguard:

• (NEW): Vanguard: A new tree is now available for Fighters and Paladins! (NOTE: The numbers are not yet finalized, and are subject to change.) The enhancement tree is as follows:
  
  • Innate (Core) Abilities
    
    • 1 AP: To the Fore: While you have a shield equipped, gain +1 to hit and damage with your main hand weapon and with your shield bash attacks.
    • 5 AP, Class Level 3: Shield Combat I:
      
      • +10% chance to make a secondary shield bash.
      
      
      
    • 10 AP, Class Level 6: Vicious Shield:
      
      • +10% chance to make a secondary shield bash.
      • While you have a shield equipped, +5% Combat Style bonus to Melee Attack Speed.
      
      
      
    • 20 AP, Class Level 12: Shield Combat II:
      
      • +10% chance to make a secondary shield bash.
      • While you have a shield equipped, +5% Combat Style bonus to Melee Attack Speed.
      • Your shield gains +1(W).
      
      
      
    • 30 AP, Class Level 18: Vicious Shield II:
      
      • Your shield gains +1 critical threat range, +1 critical multiplier, and +1(W).
      • While you have a shield equipped, +5% Combat Style bonus to Melee Attack Speed.
      
      
      
    • 40 AP, Class Level 20: Shield Champion:
      
      • While you have a shield equipped, gain +2 attack, +2 damage, +5% Doublestrike, +5% Combat Style bonus to Melee Attack Speed.
      • Your shield gains +1(W).
      • Your shield bashes stun enemies 5% of the time. DC(10 + 1/2 Character Level + Strength Mod + Stunning Bonuses).
    
    
    
  • Tier One (0 AP Required)
    
    • Shield Specialization: While you have a shield equipped, gain +1 to hit, damage, and armor class. Passive
    • No Weakness: +1/+2/+3 Fortitude Saving Throw. Passive
    • Missile Shield: While you have a shield equipped, gain the benefits of the Deflect Arrows feat, knocking aside one incoming projectile that would have struck you every 6/4/2 seconds. (Antireq Tempest or Swashbuckler Deflect Arrows) Passive
    • Shield Smash: While you have a shield equipped, Activate: Melee attack with your shield for +1/2/3(W) damage. On damage, your PRR and MRR are increased by 2/4/6 for 12 seconds. Cooldown is 16/12/8 seconds.
    • Armor Training: +1/2/3 to Balance, Intimidate, Jump. Reduce skills penalties for armor and shield by 1/2/3. Passive
    
    
    
  • Tier Two (5 AP Required)
    
    • Shield Specialization: While you have a shield equipped, gain +1 to hit, damage, and armor class.
    • Brutality: +1/+2/+3 to the DC of stunning abilities.
    • Stunning Shield: While you have a shield equipped, Activate: Melee shield bash attack with your shield for +1/2/3[W] attack. This attack stuns enemies unless they make a Fortitude saving throw vs DC(10 + Highest Ability Score Modifier + Character Level + Stunning Bonus). Cooldown 60/45/30 seconds. Stun duration 6 seconds.
    • Action Boost: Melee Power: +10/20/30% Action Boost bonus to Melee Power for 20 seconds. Usable 5 times per rest.
    • Unbalancing Shove: When you shield bash, damaged enemies get -1 to Saving Throws for 2/4/6 seconds.
    
    
    
  • Tier Three
    
    • Shield Specialization: While you have a shield equipped, gain +1 to hit, damage, and armor class.
    • Follow Up: When you hit an enemy with certain activated stunning abilities (Stunning Blow, Stunning Shield) your melee power is increased by 3/6/9 for 12 seconds whether the stun works or not.
    • Fatal Bulwark: Your shield gains +1 critical threat range.
    • Shield Riposte: When missed in melee while wearing a shield: Deals 1d4/1d6/1d8 bludgeoning damage to your attacker. Scales with melee power.
    • STR/DEX
    
    
    
  • Tier Four
    
    • Shield Specialization: While you have a shield equipped, gain +1 to hit, damage, and armor class.
    • (NOTE: Shield Charge is not currently working on Lamannia): Shield Charge: While you have a shield equipped, Activate: Rush forward up to 30 feet to your selected opponent and deliver a shield attack that hits everything in a around you. Each opponent is knocked down and takes a shield bash attack for +1/2/3[W] damage. The saving throw for the knockdown attack is 20 + Highest Attribute Mod + Class Level + bonuses to trip attacks. Ranks improve cooldown
    • Myrmidon’s Edge: Passive +1/2/3 to attack rolls to confirm critical hits and damage on critical hits (before weapon multipliers) .
    • STR/DEX
    
    
    
  • Tier Five
    
    • Shield Rush: While you have a shield equipped, Activate: Move forward in a line, delivering a shield bash attack to every creature hit. This shield bash does +2/4/6[W] damage. Rank improves cooldown
    • Disorienting Smash: When you shield bash, damaged enemies gain 1 stack of Vulnerability. This can occur at most once every 3/2/1 seconds.
    • Vulnerability: You take 1% more damage for 3 seconds. This effect stacks up to 20 times, and loses one stack on expiration.
    • Shield To The Face: +10% chance to make a secondary shield bash.
    • Armored Strength: +10 Melee Power

[Alavatar]

I see great potential synergy for a Fighter 15/Bard 3/Rogue 2. I need to evaluate the AP spread to see what is possible.

[Alavatar]

Will the Combat Style bonus to Melee Attack Speed stack with SWF while Swashbuckling with a Buckler?

[Vargouille]

We're eager to hear from player's playtest results when they get a chance to play on Lamannia.

Will the Combat Style bonus to Melee Attack Speed stack with SWF while Swashbuckling with a Buckler?

The feat Single Weapon Fighting gives a Combat Style bonus to attack speed, which of course won't stack with Vanguard's Combat Style bonus to Attack Speed.

[Wongar]

•Vulnerability: You take 1% more damage for 3 seconds. This effect stacks up to 20 times, and loses one stack on expiration.

Why would you ever want this as an enhancement? Typo or missing something?

[Vargouille]

•Vulnerability: You take 1% more damage for 3 seconds. This effect stacks up to 20 times, and loses one stack on expiration.

Why would you ever want this as an enhancement? Typo or missing something?

Perhaps the earlier player post meant:

• Disorienting Smash: When you shield bash, damaged enemies gain 1 stack of Vulnerability. This can occur at most once every 3/2/1 seconds.
  
  • Vulnerability: You take 1% more damage for 3 seconds. This effect stacks up to 20 times, and loses one stack on expiration.

[Alavatar]

• 
  
  • 
    
    • Stunning Shield: While you have a shield equipped, Activate: Melee shield bash attack with your shield for +1/2/3[W] attack. This attack stuns enemies unless they make a Fortitude saving throw vs DC(10 + Highest Ability Score Modifier + Character Level + Stunning Bonus). Cooldown 60/45/30 seconds. Stun duration 6 seconds.

Is it really Character Level and not Character Level/2? Does Highest Ability Score Modifier mean any of the 6 Ability Scores? If yes to both of those the DC will be approaching 90+. Just an FYI.

[Alavatar]

We're eager to hear from player's playtest results when they get a chance to play on Lamannia.



The feat Single Weapon Fighting gives a Combat Style bonus to attack speed, which of course won't stack with Vanguard's Combat Style bonus to Attack Speed.

Dang. I was hoping it would stack since one is a feat and another an enhancement which, historically, stack. But, I understand for balance reasons why it wouldn't.

•Vulnerability: You take 1% more damage for 3 seconds. This effect stacks up to 20 times, and loses one stack on expiration.

Why would you ever want this as an enhancement? Typo or missing something?

It appears to be a descriptor for what Vulnerability is which Disorienting Smash applies. I think it was meant to be indented under Disorienting Smash.

[HastyPudding]

I love that the tree is finally out. However, it feels a bit underwhelming and unfinished. Quite generic. Sorry, I just read the release notes for lammania and the only thing I could think of while I was reading the vanguard enhancements was 'how are the exploiters going to use this with swashbuckler?'.

(EDIT: Reading the above posts only confirms this sentiment on exploitation by swashbucklers.)

That certainly doesn't mean I won't give it a try.

Core Abilities:
- Attack speed bonuses in the core enhancements is a nice touch. It spreads it out and makes it not-so-exploitable as a single enhancement that would have modified SWF feats to work with heavier shields.

- Shield bash...meh. Read what Delacroix21 said in the above post. Those are exactly my sentiments, as well.

- The capstone is underwhelming. A plethora of tiny, semi-redundant bonuses doesn't make a strong capstone, sorry. Add +2 strength/+2 constitution and maybe +stunning DC's and it would be worthwhile.

Tier 1:
- Typical tier 1 stuff. Nothing too strong, and plenty of fluff. Exactly what I expected.


Tier 2:
- Shield Stun! Finally! Yes! I can't wait to try this out. It's going to be tough to find a +10 stunning item that isn't a weapon, though.

- Will Action Boost: Melee Power be replacing Action Boost: Damage for other trees or are they two separate action boosts?

- Unbalancing Shove should have stacks. -1 to saves, no matter for how long, doesn't make this enhancement worth your AP, which will probably be very tight, as it is.

Tier 3:
- I like Follow Up. It places emphasis on tactical combat.

Tier 4:
- Shield Charge. Move it to tier 5 and make it a stun instead of a knockdown.

- Myrmidon's Edge. I hope I'm not the only one who gets this reference.

Tier 5:
- Replace Disorienting Smash with Shield Charge, and move this to tier 4.

- Shield To The Face. Redundant. See Delacroix21's post, above.

- Shield Rush. Nice touch. Seems like a good abundant step/leap of faith clicky.


Overall, it's a solid tree that does what it does. There's nothing spectacular that stands out, however, like in some other recently released trees.

[Severlin]

The real problem with this tree is its focus on "shield bash". Look Devs, until you remove the 1 second cooldown on bash it won't matter if you add +10,000% chance to shield bash! as it will still go off the same amount of time. If you guys bothered to test a shield toon before making this tree you would have noticed you ALLREADY bash every second with just the feat, you don't need any more proc chance. Remove the bash animation (use it only when block bashing or the special attacks) and then you can remove the cooldown.

The numbers needed to make Shield Bashes really good with a one second cooldown is just math. I think we can all agree that if Shield Bashes did 10000 damage that it would be completely broken even at 1 per second. With the top shields having 2d8 damage and the tree adding a lot of +W's with shield bashes you will be doing a lot of extra damage with free shield bashes. The goal is that your shield bashes should be "hitting like a truck" albeit in slower chunks.

Since this mechanic is completely new one of our issues is that players probably don't have any kind of feeling about what numbers should be to provide a satisfying DPS experience. We expect it to require a lot of feedback from actual play.

Sev~

[Bridge_Dweller]

While I don't have any feedback at the moment, I just want to QFE this bit. I don't understand why so many players seem to have such a sense of entitlement when it comes to a past-time.

because we pay for it?

[Wongar]

Perhaps the earlier player post meant:

• Disorienting Smash: When you shield bash, damaged enemies gain 1 stack of Vulnerability. This can occur at most once every 3/2/1 seconds.
  
  • Vulnerability: You take 1% more damage for 3 seconds. This effect stacks up to 20 times, and loses one stack on expiration.

OK - misunderstanding on my part. Vulnerability is a description for Disorienting Smash, not an enhancement by itself. Guess I should have gathered that. I could not see the indent or bolding on the first post so it looked like a separate Tier 5.

[Krelar]

Perhaps the earlier player post meant:

• Disorienting Smash: When you shield bash, damaged enemies gain 1 stack of Vulnerability. This can occur at most once every 3/2/1 seconds.
  
  • Vulnerability: You take 1% more damage for 3 seconds. This effect stacks up to 20 times, and loses one stack on expiration.

The earlier player was just copying it from the release notes (There is no double tab so vulnerability looks like it's own line). I know I had to look at it twice to figure out what was going on.

[Grailhawk]

Back of the Envelop math indicates this will be very competitive with SWF/THF/TWF

20% DS
20% Alacrity
30% Melee Power

Gets you to 1.76 multiplier to DPS on just the main hand attack before adding any shield bash effects that's very close to the 1.8 multiplier TWF getts. Tack on the extra DPS from a good Shield 5.5[2d6] +15 13-20/x3 and you are going to be in the same ball park.

Looks promising at this stage.

How does Holy Sword inter act with a shield will we see paladins with 6.5[2d6] +17 11-20/x4 Shields? Once you factor in STR and Other damage mods that will easily get you and extra 300 DPS even at only 1 bash a second.

[HatsuharuZ]

First, I'd like to say that I view a shield as a mostly defensive implement, and would rather have buffs to my mainhand weapon (such as more doublestrike). I hardly ever block and use the shield bash, since my mainhand weapon is *always* better than my equipped shield for attacking. One of my main worries is that I'm losing dps by taking enhancements that increase shield bash procs. Would it be possible to have shield bash proc without an animation?

That said, after looking at the tree, I see a few problems with it:

1) Each copy of "Shield Specialization" gives a +1 AC bonus. Could this perhaps be increased, or changed into a percentage bonus? 1 AC is not as good as it used to be.

2) If "Shield Riposte" is a passive ability, then it should be made into a toggle. There are a few times when you don't want a guard.

3) "No Weakness" gives up to +3 to fortitude saves. From experience, I find that on my fighter and paladin characters my fort saves are my *best* saves, and they don't get as much use as my reflex saves. This enhancement seems a lot like selling batteries in an electric power plant.


On another note, I'd like to see something like this added to the tree:

Intimidating Fortress (passive): When enemies hit you, but deal zero damage, they are shaken without save for 6 seconds.

[ReaperAlexEU]

so if shield charge is not working at the moment, is shield block in there as a placeholder?

shield block is quite confusing:

Tier 1:
While you have a shield equipped, gain +3/6/10% chance to block melee attacks and missile attacks

Tier 2:
While you have a shield equipped, gain +4/7/20% chance to block melee attacks and missile attacks

Tier 3:
While you have a shield equipped, gain +5/8/30% chance to block melee attacks and missile attacks

was that supposed to be 3% for tier 1, 6% for tier 2 and 10% for tier 3? or was it supposed to be 10/20/30% going up the tiers? or is the whole thing a placeholder and was removed in favour of shield charge which is disabled at the moment?

it seems like shield block could be the heavy armour wearers version of dodge, only it's not in the release notes and it seems conflicted on what it has to offer