Official Vanguard Feedback Thread

[Severlin]

with the click attacks i'm hitting with the shield for 100 damage. that's not hitting like a truck imo. it's about what my main hand is doing on the base number before added effects.

We have seen shield bash crits of 4000+ internally on level 28 blitzing characters with moderately good equipment. Vanguard might be too good on Lamannia currently, but we want to see how players build and play it.

Sev~

[deathblaze]

As others have already mentioned, unless secondary shield bashes work like off-hand attacks in twf it's not going to look like much of a difference. And let's face it, secondary shield bashes also look awfully broken and ********, like spasms mid-swings. Currently as it stands, the tree looks rather underwhelming. Could use more doublestrike and/or glancing power for the tree to be more S&B than mostly just B. Also, % miss chance instead of AC (cause what good is +1 AC going to do in epics anyway?)

One thing I don't get though, why are shield charge and rush 2 separate skills? Since they essentially do the same thing anyway. How about rush being an upgrade to charge instead?

[Severlin]

If you meant me, my issue isn't that it's DPS lacking, it is that it seems completely centered on Shield Bashing ( a very boring, non-dynamic form of *combat* IMO). So yes, I would much preferred a Tree that was focused on S&B fighting not one focused on holding the Shift Key down at all times and standing still.

The tree is focused on secondary shield bash procs, not blocking shield bashes. Holding down block will drastically reduce your DPS.

Sev~

[Severlin]

One thing I don't get though, why are shield charge and rush 2 separate skills? Since they essentially do the same thing anyway. How about rush being an upgrade to charge instead?

Shield Rush moves forward in a straight line a set distance, delivering a shield bash and knock down to everything in that line. Shield Charge, on the other hand, will charge up to a selected enemy at high speeds and deliver the attack at the end of the charge. They have two different functions. They play very differently.

Sev~

[Severlin]

Shield user is most often the tank.

This is in no way a tanking tree. That's not to say that you can't combine it with tanking enhancements to make an effective tank, but this is a DPS tree.

Sev~

[Violith]

If you meant me, my issue isn't that it's DPS lacking, it is that it seems completely centered on Shield Bashing ( a very boring, non-dynamic form of *combat* IMO). So yes, I would much preferred a Tree that was focused on S&B fighting not one focused on holding the Shift Key down at all times and standing still.

shield bash doesnt require you to hold it down, granted at first you may have to, but once you get % chance to sheild bash from the improved sheild bash feat, or enhacnements you dont have to hold shift at all, its an automatic attack that adds a shield bashing animation ontop of your attack animation. so it doesnt effect your normal attack at all either.

which is why I fail to see why people are complaining about the % to sheild bashes, unless your attack speed is through the roof, I dont see how your sheild bashing enough to proc it at the global CD of 1sec already. on live, ignoring the swashbucklers who currently get swf. I barely get more then 1 bash every 3 seconds, thats with high DS and haste. swashbucklers probably get more due to swf attack speed, but I dont see it increasing much more then 1/sec even without the global cd.

[Thar]

Shield block

add +5/8/30% to your chance to block incoming melee and ranged attacks.

30% my brain understands. What is the +5/8?

[Severlin]

Shield block

add +5/8/30% to your chance to block incoming melee and ranged attacks.

30% my brain understands. What is the +5/8?

Shield Block is a placeholder for another ability and can be ignored. (It should have been hidden on Lamannia.)

Sev~

[Braegan]

The tree is focused on secondary shield bash procs, not blocking shield bashes. Holding down block will drastically reduce your DPS.

Sev~

Thanks for clearing that up.

I have seen Block+Bash fighters on occasion and that's what sprang to mind when reading this preview, apologies for being hasty.

I guess I was picturing something that boosted main hand attacks, while having some bashing clickies with special effects, some intim/threat, maybe some rallying cry thing.

Sadly, I can't get Lama to work so I won't be able to play around with it other then reading/theorycrafting.

[Thar]

This is in no way a tanking tree. That's not to say that you can't combine it with tanking enhancements to make an effective tank, but this is a DPS tree.

Sev~

Fair enough but isn't is sufficient to say that most fighters/pally's using shields would be trying to set up tank builds? If you wanted best dps wouldn't you focus on THF or TWF?

not saying that shield users don't need dps help, just expected some more AC/dodge benefits that these two classes need (AC) or lack (Dodge).

That being said, i can see my tank using some of these but undecided with the limited testing so far if it's better than the current KOTC options.

[Thar]

Shield Block is a placeholder for another ability and can be ignored. (It should have been hidden on Lamannia.)

Sev~

noooo i liked that 30% miss chance... <sad face>

[nat_1]

On paper it seems that way, in practice it does not play out like that. It appears to go off every second and increased % would at most subtract tenths of a second vs entire seconds. So with that in mind each +10% adds a less then 1% dps increase, which really makes the cores/tier 5 very lackluster.

I have to support this comment, strongly. Please put this at the top of the white board and test it thoroughly for yourselves because it completely describes my experience.

My first choice would be to do away with the 1 second lockout completely and make it like a TWF proc as far as just another attack showing up. I can understand the lameness with that because it's not distinct enough from TWF.

So, right now the first three cores and the tier 5 each have +10% chance, which I agree are lackluster and further definitely don't contribute to this:

The goal is that your shield bashes should be "hitting like a truck" albeit in slower chunks.

Sev~

If this is the goal, might I suggest this:

Innate (Core) Abilities

1 AP: To the Fore: While you have a shield equipped, gain +1 to hit and damage with your main hand weapon and with your shield bash attacks.
5 AP, Class Level 3: Shield Combat I:
On any Cleave attack damaged enemies are also shield bashed for:
Buckler: No increase
Small Shield: No increase
Large Shield: +1(W)
Tower Shield +2(W)

10 AP, Class Level 6: Vicious Shield:
Damage from Cleave Bash increases to:
Buckler: +1(W)
Small Shield: +1(W)
Large Shield: +2(W)
Tower Shield +3(W)
While you have a shield equipped, +5% Combat Style bonus to Melee Attack Speed.

20 AP, Class Level 12: Shield Combat II:
Damage from Cleave Bash increases to:
Buckler: +2(W)
Small Shield: +2(W)
Large Shield: +3(W)
Tower Shield +4(W)
While you have a shield equipped, +5% Combat Style bonus to Melee Attack Speed.
Your shield gains +1(W).

If the same thing was added to tier 5 and the passive +1(W) stayed at core 4 and 5 then a pure 20 fighter could get a +6 bash with a buckler and +8 bash with a tower shield on cleaves.

This would tie the damage to the cooldown of cleaves, hitting harder but in slower chunks.

It also fits with everything getting way more powerful with ED's since the number of cleaves available goes up.

It also spreads a little love around to somebody other than Swashbucklers.

Also you should call it Bleave because Bash + Cleave. Sure you could do the same and come out with Clash, I guess.

[tfc_generalKMK]

noooo i liked that 30% miss chance... <sad face>

hopefully what it was a placeholder for will be just a nice

i like this tree it makes it so choosing S&B isn't a gimp yourself button (imo)

[Maelodic]

I really like the mobility and in-your-face aspect of this tree and look forward to testing it this weekend.

[deathblaze]

Shield Rush moves forward in a straight line a set distance, delivering a shield bash and knock down to everything in that line. Shield Charge, on the other hand, will charge up to a selected enemy at high speeds and deliver the attack at the end of the charge. They have two different functions. They play very differently.

Sev~

From your explanation, they still look like the same skill with just different targeting systems and places where damage & knockdown takes place. (Cause charging backwards/sideways makes no sense)

[Delacroix21]

We have seen shield bash crits of 4000+ internally on level 28 blitzing characters with moderately good equipment. Vanguard might be too good on Lamannia currently, but we want to see how players build and play it.

Sev~

I am logging on to test now but I allready call shenanigans on this big time! Assuming you somehow got blitz to give you 500 BASE damage with a shield bash (first red flag) managed to pull off a x4 crit multi with shield, and bashed a mob with +100% vulnerability (helpless + FoW twist + vulnerable) that's what it would take to achieve that.


That is dream scenario, and very unlikely.

[deathblaze]

Fair enough but isn't is sufficient to say that most fighters/pally's using shields would be trying to set up tank builds? If you wanted best dps wouldn't you focus on THF or TWF?

not saying that shield users don't need dps help, just expected some more AC/dodge benefits that these two classes need (AC) or lack (Dodge).

That being said, i can see my tank using some of these but undecided with the limited testing so far if it's better than the current KOTC options.

If you're going for SD tank with some dps options you'll most likely try to at least work in divine might and exalted smites. From then on there won't be enough points to make vanguard mean much :/

[Seikojin]

The numbers needed to make Shield Bashes really good with a one second cooldown is just math. I think we can all agree that if Shield Bashes did 10000 damage that it would be completely broken even at 1 per second. With the top shields having 2d8 damage and the tree adding a lot of +W's with shield bashes you will be doing a lot of extra damage with free shield bashes. The goal is that your shield bashes should be "hitting like a truck" albeit in slower chunks.

Since this mechanic is completely new one of our issues is that players probably don't have any kind of feeling about what numbers should be to provide a satisfying DPS experience. We expect it to require a lot of feedback from actual play.

Sev~

This is what I thought of them as well. Lots of W+'s to make it like offhand strikes with the melee weapon you lost.

I like the melee attack speeds not stacking with swash. First thing I tried and smiled when I saw 45% at cap.

For S&B this is going to be good. I wish it would, or something would allow shield use from swf. This goes against the melee attack speed granted by vanguard, so I can take that tradeoff.

The capstone is underpowered I believe. It should be adding +2 to str and con, or +4 to one or the other.

I also wish the shield charge did a knockdown.

[Seikojin]

Shield Block is a placeholder for another ability and can be ignored. (It should have been hidden on Lamannia.)

Sev~

Oh really? Bummer, I thought it was a miss chance to replace dodge/stack with dodge and provide a miss chance based on shield type (nothing/buckler/small/large/tower). Guess maybe that ability needs to be put into the Stalwart and Syberis trees?

[Maelodic]

I wonder what a pure 20 Fighter Vanguard would spend his 18 feats on?

Assuming Bladeforged.

1 Magical Training
1 Improved Shield Bash
2 Shield Mastery
3 Stunning Blow
4 Power Attack
6 Proficiency: Bastard
6 Cleave
8 Improved Critical Slash
9 Improved Critical Bludgeon
10 Great Cleave
12 Proficiency: Tower
12 Improved Shield Mastery
14 Two Handed Fighting
15 Combat Expertise
16 Improved Two Handed Fighting
18 Greater Two Handed Fighting
18 Quicken
20 Improved Trip