Official Vanguard Feedback Thread

[Krelar]

The numbers needed to make Shield Bashes really good with a one second cooldown is just math. I think we can all agree that if Shield Bashes did 10000 damage that it would be completely broken even at 1 per second. With the top shields having 2d8 damage and the tree adding a lot of +W's with shield bashes you will be doing a lot of extra damage with free shield bashes. The goal is that your shield bashes should be "hitting like a truck" albeit in slower chunks.

Since this mechanic is completely new one of our issues is that players probably don't have any kind of feeling about what numbers should be to provide a satisfying DPS experience. We expect it to require a lot of feedback from actual play.

Sev~

I think you missed his point. He wasn't saying add 10000 damage, he was saying that, even without any extra %chance from the tree we are already hitting the 1 per second animation limit on shield bashes. This means that adding additional %chances from the tree actually do nothing since we are already at the cap.

I personally haven't tested to see if this is true but if it is, it's an issue that needs looked at.

[PermaBanned]

Just reading over it, I'm sad to say I'm kind of underwhelmed. I thought this was going to be the "Sword & Board DPS tree," but with such a heavy reliance on Board DPS - which is currently 1 strike per second... Yeah not really seeing it. Most value I see (unless playtesting later shows me something not apparent on the surface) is splashing for the tier 2 Stun DC boost - which I notice doesn't require a shield to even be equipped so Monks w/Fighter or Pally splashes should really like that.

Question 1: Will the (not yet testable) Tier 4 "Shield Charge" give S&Bers an effect like Wings/Vault/Abundant Step? If so then that will be kinda cool - but not sure I'ld push the ~20+ AP into the tree need to get it.

Question 2: Even with their Lama versions having reduced costs, the Stalwart/Sacred Defender trees are still fairly AP intensive/expensive - considering this tree (at least IMO) should be intended to compliment those ones, were AP costs/availability considered accordingly?

[Zafaron]

So if you pop adrenaline and get your +400 melee power, does that mean you have +400 melee power UNTIL your next attack? Or does that mean you have +400 melee power FOR your next attack? I ask because of Shield Riposte.

[HatsuharuZ]

because we pay for it?

This tree is being introduced to two f2p classes.

[ReaperAlexEU]

The numbers needed to make Shield Bashes really good with a one second cooldown is just math. I think we can all agree that if Shield Bashes did 10000 damage that it would be completely broken even at 1 per second. With the top shields having 2d8 damage and the tree adding a lot of +W's with shield bashes you will be doing a lot of extra damage with free shield bashes. The goal is that your shield bashes should be "hitting like a truck" albeit in slower chunks.

Since this mechanic is completely new one of our issues is that players probably don't have any kind of feeling about what numbers should be to provide a satisfying DPS experience. We expect it to require a lot of feedback from actual play.

Sev~

the point the player was making was that the frequency of shield bashes is already capped by current mechanics.

ie on live today you get a shield bash every second with the feat and a fast attack speed

on lama the 10% chance to shield bash would therefore be redundant as you'd still be capped at one every second.

it was not about 10K damage but about 10K chance to bash.

now i do not myself know what the actual mechanics are, but it will certainly be interesting to try counting shield bashes and see how many we get with and without vanguard as the player you quoted believes there will be no difference.

[Bridge_Dweller]

This tree is being introduced to two f2p classes.

"It" meaning the game as a whole.

Back of the Envelop math indicates this will be very competitive with SWF/THF/TWF

How close? Considering the defensive benefits are we looking at 31 flavors of broken?

[Severlin]

I think you missed his point. He wasn't saying add 10000 damage, he was saying that, even without any extra %chance from the tree we are already hitting the 1 per second animation limit on shield bashes. This means that adding additional %chances from the tree actually do nothing since we are already at the cap.

I personally haven't tested to see if this is true but if it is, it's an issue that needs looked at.

Shield bashes don't queue up. They simply don't fire during the cooldown. A Vanguard will want their shield bash to go off as close to once per second as possible. If you let your shield bash chance float at 50% then after the one second cooldown you could be waiting one, two or more swings before the next one fires. This will significantly cut into your shield bash DPS. If you raise that to 80% then the chance of having time delays between shield bashes drops dramatically.

Sev~

[FranOhmsford]

The numbers needed to make Shield Bashes really good with a one second cooldown is just math. I think we can all agree that if Shield Bashes did 10000 damage that it would be completely broken even at 1 per second. With the top shields having 2d8 damage and the tree adding a lot of +W's with shield bashes you will be doing a lot of extra damage with free shield bashes. The goal is that your shield bashes should be "hitting like a truck" albeit in slower chunks.

Since this mechanic is completely new one of our issues is that players probably don't have any kind of feeling about what numbers should be to provide a satisfying DPS experience. We expect it to require a lot of feedback from actual play.

Sev~

So...Exactly what is the point of adding Proc chance boosts in the Enhancements IF the Feat gives you as much as you're ever going to be able to use?

The issue people are complaining about has nothing to do with the amount of Dmg per Shield Bash but what are basically worthless boosts to proc chance taking up enhancement space.


P.S. I personally really hate active Shield Blocking {and Tumbling for that matter} in this game - If it's not passive I'm simply not going to take the enhancement!

[Fefnir_2011]

Vulnerability is meh. It's fast becoming the Frank's Red Hot Sauce of enhancements. I'd rather see something like an Overwhelming Blow effect that acts like fear does on players (keeps them from making an action) or, if you're intent on adding more damage to an individual enemy here, making it a specific form of vulnerability that maybe does a little more, but only increases incoming bludgeoning damage.

Also, I second the disappointment in lack of bonuses to your main-hand weapon. I imagine it's because you were weary/wary of that sort of thing after working on Swashbuckler. But even just a "you gain +1 critical threat range/+20 melee power to your main-hand weapon while using a shield" would be a suitably powerful enhancement (and give people good reason to go to T5). You could even limit it to just martial weapons (with perhaps another T5 to expand it to exotic weapons for fighters) and you'd both encourage longsword use AND make vanguard more tempting. Just a couple of initial thoughts.

[Ganak]

Strengths: Overall quite please with the dps and stunning blow cc focus. Shield rushes/charges should be a hoot.

Weaknesses: Survivability. Tiny AC bonuses, no hp bonuses, no reflex, little mitigate/prevent incoming damage. No self heal at all.

•Innate (Core) Abilities
•1 AP: To the Fore: While you have a shield equipped, gain +1 to hit and damage with your main hand weapon and with your shield bash attacks.

Solid. Why not throw in +1 AC bonus? Relates to survivability concerns below.

•5 AP, Class Level 3: Shield Combat I:
•+10% chance to make a secondary shield bash.

secondary shield bash I like because it happens automatically. Maybe add +5-10 HP or +1 AC?

•10 AP, Class Level 6: Vicious Shield:
•+10% chance to make a secondary shield bash.
•While you have a shield equipped, +5% Combat Style bonus to Melee Attack Speed.

Solid.

•20 AP, Class Level 12: Shield Combat II:
•+10% chance to make a secondary shield bash.
•While you have a shield equipped, +5% Combat Style bonus to Melee Attack Speed.
•Your shield gains +1(W).

Solid. Maybe a +1 AC when using a shield?

•30 AP, Class Level 18: Vicious Shield II:
•Your shield gains +1 critical threat range, +1 critical multiplier, and +1(W).
•While you have a shield equipped, +5% Combat Style bonus to Melee Attack Speed.

Solid.

•40 AP, Class Level 20: Shield Champion:
•While you have a shield equipped, gain +2 attack, +2 damage, +5% Doublestrike, +5% Combat Style bonus to Melee Attack Speed.
•Your shield gains +1(W).
•Your shield bashes stun enemies 5% of the time. DC(10 + 1/2 Character Level + Strength Mod + Stunning Bonuses).

Very good. Maybe +2 AC also?

Does Doublestrike apply to shield bash?

Up to +20% Melee Attack Speed and 30% secondary shield bash. With the Improved Shield Bash it can be 50% secondary shield bash chance?

With Shield Mastery feat, Improved Shield Mastery feat, and ED Legendary Shield Mastery, is my math right that we add 23% doublestrike?


Really like the stun going off automatically 5% of the time with 50% secondary shield bash.

•Tier One (0 AP Required)
•Shield Specialization: While you have a shield equipped, gain +1 to hit, damage, and armor class. Passive
•No Weakness: +1/+2/+3 Fortitude Saving Throw. Passive
•Missile Shield: While you have a shield equipped, gain the benefits of the Deflect Arrows feat, knocking aside one incoming projectile that would have struck you every 6/4/2 seconds. (Antireq Tempest or Swashbuckler Deflect Arrows) Passive
•Shield Smash: While you have a shield equipped, Activate: Melee attack with your shield for +1/2/3(W) damage. On damage, your PRR and MRR are increased by 2/4/6 for 12 seconds. Cooldown is 16/12/8 seconds.
•Armor Training: +1/2/3 to Balance, Intimidate, Jump. Reduce skills penalties for armor and shield by 1/2/3. Passive

Shield Specialization: very good for each tier.

No weakness: Fits with the theme, but probably not going to worry about Fort saves on a fighter or pally. This would be more practical if it were reflex save.

Missile Shield: I like this. I think the Deflect Arrows feat itself is meh, but with playing the tempest enhancement, dropping the deflect to every 2 seconds, I've found it very good. Although with a high AC vanguard, it may not be as impactful. Taking this would depend on if it was 1 or 2 action points per level.

Armor Training: Solid

•Tier Two (5 AP Required)
•Shield Specialization: While you have a shield equipped, gain +1 to hit, damage, and armor class.
•Brutality: +1/+2/+3 to the DC of stunning abilities.
•Stunning Shield: While you have a shield equipped, Activate: Melee shield bash attack with your shield for +1/2/3[W] attack. This attack stuns enemies unless they make a Fortitude saving throw vs DC(10 + Highest Ability Score Modifier + Character Level + Stunning Bonus). Cooldown 60/45/30 seconds. Stun duration 6 seconds.
•Action Boost: Melee Power: +10/20/30% Action Boost bonus to Melee Power for 20 seconds. Usable 5 times per rest.
•Unbalancing Shove: When you shield bash, damaged enemies get -1 to Saving Throws for 2/4/6 seconds.

Brutality: Like it. The focus on stunning does lend itself to Vanguards having Strength as the #1 ability.

Stunning Shield: Really like because you can increase your overall stunning output in conjunction with the feat.

Action Boost: Melee Power: Very nice

Unbalancing Shove: Meh. Not clear if the -1 saving throws stack and if so, if there is a limit. If not, bleh. If so, may have to think on it.

•Tier Three
•Shield Specialization: While you have a shield equipped, gain +1 to hit, damage, and armor class.
•Follow Up: When you hit an enemy with certain activated stunning abilities (Stunning Blow, Stunning Shield) your melee power is increased by 3/6/9 for 12 seconds whether the stun works or not.
•Fatal Bulwark: Your shield gains +1 critical threat range.
•Shield Riposte: When missed in melee while wearing a shield: Deals 1d4/1d6/1d8 bludgeoning damage to your attacker. Scales with melee power.
•STR/DEX

Follow Up: Allows for 9 more melee power a great deal of the time. Nice. Perhaps push the scale to 12?

Fatal Bulwark: Worth taking with 50% auto shield bash.

Shield Riposte: Meh.

•Tier Four
•Shield Specialization: While you have a shield equipped, gain +1 to hit, damage, and armor class.
•(NOTE: Shield Charge is not currently working on Lamannia): Shield Charge: While you have a shield equipped, Activate: Rush forward up to 30 feet to your selected opponent and deliver a shield attack that hits everything in a around you. Each opponent is knocked down and takes a shield bash attack for +1/2/3[W] damage. The saving throw for the knockdown attack is 20 + Highest Attribute Mod + Class Level + bonuses to trip attacks. Ranks improve cooldown
•Myrmidon’s Edge: Passive +1/2/3 to attack rolls to confirm critical hits and damage on critical hits (before weapon multipliers) .
•STR/DEX

Shield Charge: Awesome! How long a knockdown?

Myrmidon’s Edge: LOVE THE NAME. Played a Myrmidon 20+ years ago. Good enhancement.

•Tier Five
•Shield Rush: While you have a shield equipped, Activate: Move forward in a line, delivering a shield bash attack to every creature hit. This shield bash does +2/4/6[W] damage. Rank improves cool down
•Disorienting Smash: When you shield bash, damaged enemies gain 1 stack of Vulnerability. This can occur at most once every 3/2/1 seconds.
•Vulnerability: You take 1% more damage for 3 seconds. This effect stacks up to 20 times, and loses one stack on expiration.
•Shield To The Face: +10% chance to make a secondary shield bash.
•Armored Strength: +10 Melee Power

Shield Rush: Yes!

Disorienting Smash & Vulnerability: Adding 20% to red named fights. Balances the stun (trash mob) heavy emphasis.

Shield To The Face: 60% overall shield bash good, but should be lower and not worthy of a tier 5.

Armored Strength: Great.









Summary:
Survivability issues makes this a no go. In this form, a Vanguard could be getting whooped on EH without outside healing help. On EE, your wasting another spot because your needing a dedicated healer.

Offensive aspects are solid. Perhaps crit multiplier +1 on a 19 or 20 or some similar higher level, non-special attack boost to polish it off?




Suggestions:
Please correct me if I am off; I believe there is precedent for Vanguards to have Fast Healing or an on-hit healing like light monks?

Swap out tier 5 Shield To The Face for a Fast Healing. Add an on hit or on kill healing effect?

Add in a few more AC and HP bonuses?

Uncanny dodge clickie?

Inherent Damage Reduction?

Fast movement (like swashbuckler): Again I believe there is a PnP precedent (able to move faster in heavy armor)? The concept of the Vanguard is to be the first to engage/front rank. The shield charge/rush may diminish the "need" for this. Something to put them on par with Barbs fast movement would be swell.



Final:
Promising start and hopeful to see consideration to survivability concerns, so as to create characters who when played well, aren't going to constantly struggling to replace hp.

[HatsuharuZ]

"It" meaning the game as a whole.

Still, you could phrase your feedback a bit more eloquently.

[Braegan]

I was hoping it would be more S&B DPS as opposed to Board DPS. Oh well.

[FranOhmsford]

You could even limit it to just martial weapons (with perhaps another T5 to expand it to exotic weapons for fighters) and you'd both encourage longsword use AND make vanguard more tempting. Just a couple of initial thoughts.

Yes..Because we all love not being able to use our B-Swords/D-Axes until we have enough AP for Tier 5 Enhancements!

All those Low Lvl B-Swords and D-Axes that will never see the light of day again!!!


When I build a Character I build a Character - I don't want to have to redo my enhancements to go from Frost to Fire to Acid as a Sorc!
And I don't want to build a character that uses Long Swords from Lvl 1-12 then has to swap to B-Swords at Lvl 13!


By all means make Longswords viable BUT NOT AT THE EXPENSE OF ANOTHER WEAPON!!!

[Fefnir_2011]

Yes..Because we all love not being able to use our B-Swords/D-Axes until we have enough AP for Tier 5 Enhancements!

All those Low Lvl B-Swords and D-Axes that will never see the light of day again!!!


When I build a Character I build a Character - I don't want to have to redo my enhancements to go from Frost to Fire to Acid as a Sorc!
And I don't want to build a character that uses Long Swords from Lvl 1-12 then has to swap to B-Swords at Lvl 13!


By all means make Longswords viable BUT NOT AT THE EXPENSE OF ANOTHER WEAPON!!!

Calm yourself. B-swords and Dwarven axes are inherently better than longswords. You'd still be able to use your B-sword from 1-12, just as any longsword user wouldn't be getting their crit bonus to 12 anyway. Everyone would stay on equal footing, you'd just have to use 2 more AP to improve your exotic weapon. Plus, I specifically said "Martial" because dwarves treat D-axes as martial weapons.

[Psiandron]

Wow, really all about using the shield as an offensive weapon rather than increasing it's defensive capabilities much. Course, that's in keeping with the game's direction I suppose.

I thought that Missile shield was kind of weak. It's the same as deflect arrows with a weapon. You'd think that some guy who's skilled in using a shield would be a bit better (like maybe 2x as good) at blocking arrows than another guy swatting them out of the air with his sword.

I know that the AP costs aren't set, but Myrmidon's Edge should be pretty expensive, imo. For a kensei to achieve the same bonus at final upgrade is 6 AP.

The release notes call for a choice to increase strength or DEX, the in-game chart only offers strength. Personally, I think that it also should offer CON as an option.

Initially the devs stated that MP was not going to be offered at heroic levels, but here it is again. If your going to start dropping it in enhancement trees then I think that you need to go back and start adding it into DPS trees like kensei and tempest (I won't even bring up barb because it's completely buggered for now). As you bring these other options up toward the level of those trees in terms of DPS you give people less and less reason to play them.

My final thought is that the capstone is pretty weak all things considered.

[Severlin]

Weaknesses: Survivability. Tiny AC bonuses, no hp bonuses, no reflex, little mitigate/prevent incoming damage. No self heal at all.

Doing DPS while holding a shield *is* your survivability. While the armor class bonus for shields might get outpaced at higher level content, the extra PRR and MRR and the ability to double MRR against damage effects does not.

Sev~

[Mryal]

Yep, EE stun DC viable warchanter bard tank is now even more viable.Many thanks!
As for the rest of the tree.Most of it as expected.Wich is a bit dissapointing.Many other cool things could have been done, like chance to counter attack when beign missed with shields, blitz like effect that charges when youre missed in combat, etc.But you went with shield bash :S

Doing DPS while holding a shield *is* your survivability. While the armor class bonus for shields might get outpaced at higher level content, the extra PRR and MRR and the ability to double MRR against damage effects does not.

Sev~

It is.A lot more than people expect.
I'm not sure if anyone who is complaining about lack of increase in defenses has actualy played on lam.Heavy armor + shield is godmode by itself pretty much.

[Delacroix21]

Shield bashes don't queue up. They simply don't fire during the cooldown. A Vanguard will want their shield bash to go off as close to once per second as possible. If you let your shield bash chance float at 50% then after the one second cooldown you could be waiting one, two or more swings before the next one fires. This will significantly cut into your shield bash DPS. If you raise that to 80% then the chance of having time delays between shield bashes drops dramatically.

Sev~

On paper it seems that way, in practice it does not play out like that. It appears to go off every second and increased % would at most subtract tenths of a second vs entire seconds. So with that in mind each +10% adds a less then 1% dps increase, which really makes the cores/tier 5 very lackluster.


Also the capstone is only really good for the attack speed increase, the chance of stun should be 10% as a 5% chance to proc a stun every 1 second means it takes (theoretically) 20 seconds of attacking a mob to proc a stun, which they could then save against. Not very good at all.

[ddorimble]

Yep, EE stun DC viable warchanter bard tank is now even more viable.Many thanks!

Yeah, I'm pretty surprised by the lack of 'While wielding a small/heavy/tower shield' type of disclaimer on these and Defender PrEs. It's Swashbucklers all the way down!

[HastyPudding]

On paper it seems that way, in practice it does not play out like that. It appears to go off every second and increased % would at most subtract tenths of a second vs entire seconds. So with that in mind each +10% adds a less then 1% dps increase, which really makes the cores/tier 5 very lackluster.


Also the capstone is only really good for the attack speed increase, the chance of stun should be 10% as a 5% chance to proc a stun every 1 second means it takes (theoretically) 20 seconds of attacking a mob to proc a stun, which they could then save against. Not very good at all.

Yes, the stun in the capstone is lackluster and feels like a last-minute addition that a well-thought-out plan. Heck, the Stalwart Defender gets a no-save knockdown on shield bash vorpals at fighter level 3. This capstone stun should be a no-save proc on vorpal shield bashes. It's a capstone, so it's not going to be exploited.