Update 23 Third Look

[MangLord]

As an example:
Rangers can TWF, rogues can evade. Everyone CAN TWF, but just not very well; same with Evasion, everyone CAN evade, just not very well (hence we all have basic Reflex Saves)... Evasion is equal in power to a bonus feat, and thus I have always argued that it should be available as a feat with a requirement of something like "Dex or Int 15" & maybe "Dodge (feat)"... but until then, it is as trained and skilled as Spring Attack, Improved Critical, etc... Not some simple ability that is equal to being able to walk without tripping over your shoelaces...

Not to split hairs, but rangers do get evasion at level 8 or 9. Somewhere in that range. It's early enough to be very useful, assuming you build for DEX.

My heavy armor cleric sometimes gets evasion rolls for certain spells, namely some cold and negative energy spells. Not so much in the bloated world of epics, but at heroic levels for sure. I think everyone gets a "basic" evasion where they can save for half damage, but the actual feat allows you to completely ignore damage on a successful save, and you only take half damage on a failed save with improved evasion. I could be wrong. That's just how I remember it working.
It kinda negates some of the ongoing argument in the sense that everyone can evade to some degree, but only an extremely nimble, unencumbered hero can have the agility and catlike reflexes to limbo under a lightning bolt like Neo in The Matrix. It makes sense to me. I also think that a magical shield should be able to deflect the same lightning bolt, but i guess that's where MRR will come into play.

[-Avalon-]

"Obviously you aren't understanding, I am not saying you directly said that they should auto-grant each other, I am saying that by your logic they MUST auto-grant each other." - Avalon

I'm not even going to touch your math (as that wasn't an equation)... Now, its obvious that logic isn't your subject so I'll try to explain this through examples.
You say that "by my logic they must auto-grant each other" with is to say "meeting Requirements = Auto-grant". Now it should be obvious why this is bunk, but i'll elaborate anyway.
I say that "meeting the requirements of one feat, means that you should be able to get other feats with the same requirements" with is to say "Requirements = same Requirements"

Examples
1. Most fighters meet the requirements for Bastard Sword Proficiency, yet its not auto granted. Bastard Sword Proficiency has similar requirements to Power Attack, yet one still does not auto-grant the other. Yet being able to get one, does mean that you can get the other!
2. Dex based builds often meet the requirements for dodge (the feat), yet its not auto granted. Dodge has similar (notice that i don't say the same) requirements to precision, yet having one does not grant the other, but being able to get one does mean that you can (very likely) get the other.
3. Improved Shield bash, Shield Mastery, & Shield Deflection all have the same requirements, meeting those requirements doesn't auto-grant the feat, having one or even two of these does not auto-grant the others. But! being able to take one does mean that you can take the other.

Now, making the argument that "you can dodge with 1%" is very dishonest. I've explained that the requirements for evading are similar to the requirements to dodging well (15% and up) are the same. not that the base min requirements are the same. Once again, to evade, or to dodge well you need Light or no armor, you cannot use a tower shield (or shouldn't in the case of evasion) and your likely to have high dex/reflex. now if you have a rebuttal (and i really hope you don't) then i would appreciate you actually refuting the points I've made, instead of making up an argument for me and then strutting around like a peacock when you've squashed it. And you might want to look up "Straw Man"...

I would agree with you, but then there'd be two people wrong.

We're never going to see eye to eye on this, because your 'brand' of logic is not logic by my definition. Mainly because you refute my points by not actually touching my points. You use feats that must be CHOSEN to explain the likeness and similarities between something that IS auto-granted and something that you really have to go out of your way to pick up (actually choosing specific classes). So, saying anything about SM, ISM, Shield Bash, Shield Deflection... doesn't have anything to do with this. Dodge as a feat and Precision, both feats, so, no similarities there either... and then, talking about Bastard Sword feat and Power Attack... yet again, neither ARE auto-granted...

Let's get to something that actually makes sense: Comparing an Auto-grant to a Non-Auto-Grant... and I would love for you to actually find an example, because any time you find one, the Dev's will fix the code most likely... or explain to you why you are off your rocker, or they will let other players explain why you are wrong. If something that is FREELY GIVEN TO YOU has the same requirements as stuff that is not freely given to you, then there is something wrong with the system. The ability to dodge (not the feat) is your inherent ability to not stumble over your feet while attempting to not be where hazardous physical occurrences are taking place. Everyone has this ability, if you strap on heavier armor or start walking around with a cellar door strapped to your arm, it will make it more difficult, yes, but not impossible.

Evading a spell effect takes CONSIDERABLY MORE skill and activity, whether you wish to see this is up to you. If you strap on medium armor OR heavy armor, OR use a Heavy or Tower Shield, it will render your ability null and void until you rectify this problem. Note, that if you wanted, you could wear Medium Armor and use a Large Shield, and if you get the right enhancements, be able to dodge with 15% or better chance... but you still CANNOT evade! Just that basic fact should tell you, that you are wrong, in D&D and DDO, the two abilities are VERY DIFFERENT. If you wish to reply, please forward it to a Moderator, because I'm only going to see it as an attempt to troll. You refuse to see basic logic, even when explained in detail, and other people have even told you that you were wrong, yet you continue to try and use methods that don't even answer the points in question... when told that real world definitions do not apply, you even point them out... so, yes, all you are doing at this point is trying to egg on a confrontational post.

[-Avalon-]

Not to split hairs, but rangers do get evasion at level 8 or 9. Somewhere in that range. It's early enough to be very useful, assuming you build for DEX.

My heavy armor cleric sometimes gets evasion rolls for certain spells, namely some cold and negative energy spells. Not so much in the bloated world of epics, but at heroic levels for sure. I think everyone gets a "basic" evasion where they can save for half damage, but the actual feat allows you to completely ignore damage on a successful save, and you only take half damage on a failed save with improved evasion. I could be wrong. That's just how I remember it working.
It kinda negates some of the ongoing argument in the sense that everyone can evade to some degree, but only an extremely nimble, unencumbered hero can have the agility and catlike reflexes to limbo under a lightning bolt like Neo in The Matrix. It makes sense to me. I also think that a magical shield should be able to deflect the same lightning bolt, but i guess that's where MRR will come into play.

Only Rogue 2, Monk 2, Ranger 9, and a few other cases, get true evasion (save for no damage or full), later, they get improved evasion (save for none or half)... everyone else gets reflex saves (shows up as Evade when it succeeds, but is save for half or full damage)... the problem here, and has been discussed at great length, is that everyone can dodge with some %, I think the maximum is around 36 or so right now, but not certain... Zurrander is attempting to say that Dodging and Evading have the same basic requirements... which they don't, it would be like saying that Dodging a punch in real life has the same basic requirements as, say, dodging bullets or lightning strikes (from clouds)... and, well, they don't... it requires a tremendous amount of skill, perception, talent, and maybe a degree of 6th sense or precognition even... dodging people swinging a fist or a sword? Everyone can do that... they might not succeed, but it's a very basic ability, kind of like walking... dodging a lightning bolt that moves at roughly 3700 miles per second? I'm not sure how anyone can think dodging a sword that moves roughly 20 miles per hour, would be ANYTHING like dodging lightning (yet again, 3700 miles per hour... or 185 times faster...)

But hey, everyone has their own beliefs, right?