Update 23 Third Look

[Jappy]

how much longer till lammina is open im tiered of waiting for it

[tfc_generalKMK]

how much longer till lammina is open im tiered of waiting for it

based on past weeks probably tomorrow

[XodousRoC]

Agreed, unless they plan to add spiky hair or ponytails that go beyond the waist (and knee preferably), then we should probably also not have FF weapons because then it is just sadistic to have the weapons, but not the look to go with it. In any case, Even Insanity is only about 4 feet long and 1 foot wide, by 2 inches thick maybe? You could still easily post a two-handed block and roll away...



While I agree with you assuming your starting statement applies, unfortunately, it doesn't, so I cannot agree with the entirety. You are using straw man arguments here, the originating statement is that evasion does not require rolling (or jumping etc) because it is only subtle movements. I think you are confusing dodge with evasion. And the two are vastly different. If someone swings a claymore at you, you subtly dodge out of the way. If you step into an area laced with dynamite, you need to EVADE (much as you would if someone threw a Fireball at you, you make a reflex save to see if you can take less damage, and in the case of Evasion, NO damage). This might take the form of jumping behind a very large boulder that we don't see graphically (uses imagination, which I am against when discussing logic), or more likely, rolling and leaping quickly outside of the area... you don't just subtly step to the side behind your upraised finger and hide behind it lol... Evasion involves a great deal more movement than simply dodging.



It is only silly if the concept was good from the beginning. This is the trap that becomes almost the sole argument of exploiters in every game, "You didn't fix it for X time, so it must have been right! Now, give me alternatives to let me continue to be as awesome as I am now (even though I am breaking the rules to be this awesome)" You don't get reasonable alternatives to cover for loss of 'awesomeness' that shouldn't have existed in the first place. Secondly, Let's do your suggestion as a test: To keep your expected power level, we decide to buff bucklers and light shields by 3X... So, now, it is JUST as good to use Buckler/Light Shield as it is to use a Tower Shield. So, what point is there in Arcane Spell Failure augs or the elven/WF ability to lower ASF plus EK abilities to lower ASF just so melee casters can use tower shields reasonably? None? Well, considering the huge bump to int casters that want to melee coming with Harper, I'm sure that will go over well... I could go on for a long time on how many ways what you suggest invalidates or breaks various systems in this game, but if you stop and think about all the effects it would have on everyone other than evasion builds, you will catch on.



I agree that we need more bucklers/light shields. Should they be as powerful by any means as Heavy/Tower Shields? NO. Much the same as daggers do not do as much base damage as great swords. To be as deadly as a THF person is, you need to use TWF, or have special benefits (such as from Assassin), etc... to compensate for that vast difference. It is not the Developers' responsibility to add power to smaller shields just so Evasion 'Tanks' can be as effective as they are currently while they are using a broken system that shouldn't have existed to begin with. It has always been the decision of the player to decide which they prefer: a character that mitigates damage through prevention, or mitigates damage through avoidance. What you suggest is that we give Evasion 'Tanks' both prevention and avoidance, and give Heavy Tanks prevention... how is this different than what we have right now where no one plays Heavy Tanks because Evasion 'Tanks' are so much better?





Just a pet peeve. We all seem relatively smart, let's respect each other and stop using comments like this as it insults the intelligence of everyone who reads it. It is the same as saying, "Common Sense", or, "End of discussion". If someone disagrees with you, it does not mean they are wrong, or that they are an idiot. And not one of us can say that there is only what we see, and nothing else, thus, "Not really much else to it." which implies that what we say and see is really all that matters, and your reality and perceptions are invalid or unimportant. So, please, let's stay respectful and debate things.

I have in no way espoused a belief that small shields/bucklers should offer the same kind of PRR/MRR that large/tower shields do. Quoting a portion of my arguments without the acknowledging surrounding material can make an argument appear to say things do they do not, in fact, say. Let's just clear a few things up:

1) I do not, and will not, have an evasion tank
-I didn't even know evasion worked with tower shields until it was pointed out to me in this thread and I did subsequent testing.
2) I don't believe it to be logical for evasion to work with large/tower shields
-This strikes me very much in the same vein as evading in medium/heavy armor. It should probably have never been.
3) There is an almost complete lack of small shields/bucklers to replace the shields being taken away.
4) I am not advocating an increase in small shield/buckler power to match large/tower shields. What I am advocating is a need for a proliferation of quality small shields/bucklers since they are so rare (and mostly underwhelming outside the 3BC bucklers) to allow for affected players to regear prior to the nerf.

[Oxarhamar]

Just a pet peeve. We all seem relatively smart, let's respect each other and stop using comments like this as it insults the intelligence of everyone who reads it. It is the same as saying, "Common Sense", or, "End of discussion". If someone disagrees with you, it does not mean they are wrong, or that they are an idiot. And not one of us can say that there is only what we see, and nothing else, thus, "Not really much else to it." which implies that what we say and see is really all that matters, and your reality and perceptions are invalid or unimportant. So, please, let's stay respectful and debate things.

Simply stating the fact of the matter on why the change has come about.

Arguing the physics of weather a Charicter would be able to evade with heavy large shield is not going to change that.

I do think we need better light shield options. Which would be a better focus then bickering back and forth on the topic.?

[Zurrander]

Avalon


maybe its just me... but I don't see how evasion is different than dodge (the words literately mean the same thing). And I have in no way used a straw man, I quoted directly form the arguments that I was responding to. 1. saying that heavy shields are to heavy (which they are lighter than light armor, so no). 2. saying that heavy shields are to big (which most are only as big as the large end small shields, so no). And once again, To say that evasion requires more movement than dodging is just outright false...

Evasion - escape or avoid, especially by cleverness or trickery.
Dodge - avoid (someone or something) by a sudden quick movement.

Not to mention that the games animation for Evading & Dodging are the same (and by that I mean there is no animation). So no, i don't have to "Jump out of the way" any more than a dodger has to jump back to avoid a side swinging great axe. Lets not pretend that evasion should have to play but real world rules and avoid the entire attack but dodge gets to continue not doing so. IF you can Dodge with no penalties you should be able to Evade with no penalties. Seriously, you've already won, evasion is getting nerfed regardless of what we say here. But I'm not going to set here and pretend like it make scenes.

[XodousRoC]

I do think we need better light shield options. Which would be a better focus then bickering back and forth on the topic.?

I concur, Ox.

My only real argument here is that better (and a great deal more) options need to be presented for evasion tanks in the small shield/buckler line. Adding that before the nerf so toons can regear and adjust would save a lot of unnecessary angst.

The rest of this is specifically aimed at the Devs.

I would ask the devs (challenge them, really) to introduce viable small shields and bucklers for beginner to end gamer. Evasion tank is a niche build anyway, but pulling their ability to function (whether that function is within the current scope of our game belief systems or not) without first introducing alternatives (or doing so at the same time) is asking for that niche portion of the community to become agitated. They may get so anyway, but introducing options within the line they will be forced into would at least blunt that.

Please consider this carefully. You're altering the way a 7 year function has worked. I get that under the current game state (especially once U23 hits Live) this is something you need to do, but there just isn't enough out there for small shield/buckler use from 1-28.

Again, I respect the Devs' intent in what they are going about. Change is often unsettling. You won't please everyone. I have been fairly vocal in a couple of forums on how I disagree with some of your decisions (the Defender tree and its cap especially), but you are also introducing fun new dynamics (SWF, Swashbuckler, Vanguard--I REALLY like this tree--, etc.). Please don't take any of my arguments as attacks. You won't please me all the time either, but I really enjoy that you continue to try to create balance and invigorate our gaming experience through innovative ideas...especially considering the age of this game...

[-Avalon-]

I have in no way espoused a belief that small shields/bucklers should offer the same kind of PRR/MRR that large/tower shields do. Quoting a portion of my arguments without the acknowledging surrounding material can make an argument appear to say things do they do not, in fact, say. Let's just clear a few things up:

1) I do not, and will not, have an evasion tank
-I didn't even know evasion worked with tower shields until it was pointed out to me in this thread and I did subsequent testing.
2) I don't believe it to be logical for evasion to work with large/tower shields
-This strikes me very much in the same vein as evading in medium/heavy armor. It should probably have never been.
3) There is an almost complete lack of small shields/bucklers to replace the shields being taken away.
4) I am not advocating an increase in small shield/buckler power to match large/tower shields. What I am advocating is a need for a proliferation of quality small shields/bucklers since they are so rare (and mostly underwhelming outside the 3BC bucklers) to allow for affected players to regear prior to the nerf.

I agree that there needs to be more 'quality' items all around. If you check one of my posts (I think in this thread even), you will see that the list of weapons available for Favored Souls to use as Deity Favored Weapons past lvl 25 (minus Thunder-Forged) is under 10 (for 6 different weapons, so 1 or 2 weapons TOTAL per type)... I wouldn't call that an acceptable variety that when you are one of the Forgotten Realms races you are limited to Heavy Mace, and there's only 1 of those (aside from TF) past lvl 25, and it isn't that good. For great swords, you are stuck with a choice of 2 (I think), and so on... So, yes, I am very much in favor of more items of quality to be found in the game.

Problem with 'quality' is what makes them have 'quality'?

Avalon

maybe its just me... but I don't see how evasion is different than dodge (the words literately mean the same thing). And I have in no way used a straw man, I quoted directly form the arguments that I was responding to. 1. saying that heavy shields are to heavy (which they are lighter than light armor, so no). 2. saying that heavy shields are to big (which most are only as big as the large end small shields, so no). And once again, To say that evasion requires more movement than dodging is just outright false...

Evasion - escape or avoid, especially by cleverness or trickery.
Dodge - avoid (someone or something) by a sudden quick movement.

Not to mention that the games animation for Evading & Dodging are the same (and by that I mean there is no animation). So no, i don't have to "Jump out of the way" any more than a dodger has to jump back to avoid a side swinging great axe. Lets not pretend that evasion should have to play but real world rules and avoid the entire attack but dodge gets to continue not doing so. IF you can Dodge with no penalties you should be able to Evade with no penalties. Seriously, you've already won, evasion is getting nerfed regardless of what we say here. But I'm not going to set here and pretend like it make scenes.

Trying to use actual definitions of words to define D&D mechanics will inevitably lead you astray. Yes, the two words in English mean nearly the same thing... In D&D they do not. Reflex save is your ability to move in such a way as to avoid partial damage from a spell or effect allowing a reflex save (to graphically represent this would be to shut the servers down any time 12 people went on a raid lol, WAY too much stress, so you aren't going to get the true representation) But, if you honestly believe that to avoid 100% of the damage from a 40 ft diameter ball of magical fire that is so hot that it can even melt some metals and disintegrate some rocks all you need to do is a subtle sidestep, then yes, there is no point debating with you because you firmly believe and love evasion working exactly as it does and nothing should ever change.

Additionally, if you believe that to dodge a downward swing of a claymore requires the same amount of dexterity and maneuverability that is needed to avoid 100% damage from that fireball above... then how come Evasion is not just granted automatically to everyone? My paladin can get 3% dodge, so he should be able to evade as well, they require the same things, and "IF you can Dodge with no penalties you should be able to Evade with no penalties" right? Or, do you mean that only having 3% dodge implies a 'penalty? Because, I've seen some monks and rogues in light/no armor with 10% or less dodge... What about the half-orc fighter with 25% dodge? That should grant evasion, though, right? We need some serious qualifiers here... because your method is WAY too open to interpretation... Or would you just settle for "Dodge" & "Evasion" are NOT the same, require vastly different skills and maneuverability (as proven by only a few people having Evasion, while everyone gets Reflex Saves and Dodge)... but, please, feel free to continue to argue Semantics vs Mechanics + Logic...

[MangLord]

saying that heavy shields are to heavy (which they are lighter than light armor, so no)

This thread has completely digressed into nitpicking, but I wanted to add that a suit of armor, in real life, is strapped over a person's body in such a way that it's reasonably comfortable to wear. Not to say that someone not accustomed to being in a suit of plate armor isn't going to be tired after a couple hours. I had a chainmail tunic that I made out of mild steel as a final project for a jewelry class, and it weighed around 40lbs, but wasn't nearly as difficult to wear as a 40lb backpack full of textbooks, since the weight was distributed better. If you were to ask me to evade a basketball being thrown at me from 5 feet away, I'd never be able to do it. My ranger can have a full suit of chain on and jump 20 feet high and dance through fireballs, but he can also carry 500lbs of junk without being encumbered whatsoever. As far as a shield vs armor, any sort of shield weight is borne solely on the muscles of the arm, so I'd expect extending a 20lb shield with your forearm for longer than 10 minutes would become unbearable, no matter how much muscle mass is behind it. If you want to get into weight and encumbrance, then no one should be able to move with the amount of junk we happily haul through every quest, so we've lost touch with reality right there.

If you're willing to kill dragons whilst carrying several thousand pounds of gear and float through the air while carrying 300lbs of potions, 10 swords, a library's worth of scrolls, etc, etc, any argument based in reality has lost all footing. It would be just as easy for the Devs to say that evasion is feat anyone can take, or that no armor has unlimited PRR, but a line needs to be drawn somewhere or we may as well removes races and classes and all just be generic "heroes", because most everyone would homogenize into the build that works best for the current game and anything less than ideal would just gather dust.

But yes, I would like to see more named light/buckler shields for a wide variety of levels. It seems that heroic levels have been completely written off, but it would be nice. Maybe some new stuff being added to the seasonal events like Mabar and Crystal Cove? That seems like an option that would appeal to the entire player base, no matter what level they like to play.

I think just about everyone will have at least one character in their stable that will need a complete rework after this pass, so I feel your pain if your favorite toon needs to be reworked from square 1, but the +20heart seems to have been a one time thing. I'd like to request a BTA +20 heart, one per account, with this update.

[MangLord]

Unlike Fighters vs. Paladins, I think Rogues have actually gotten a really lovely boost and very few drawbacks. Not sure where Manglord's rogue doom is coming from...Mang, can you provide more context?

I haven't really played with the Lammania changes on my rogue, so for all I know, the melee power supplement to venomed blades might be great.

Maybe it's just me, but I hate scroll healing, especially in the middle of a fight. I find that I get chunked down so fast while moving in slow motion trying to run away and use a Heal scroll. I grab ridiculous aggro despite having items, clickies and enhancements lowering my threat. I'd say half the time I'm not getting the benefit of sneak attack damage, and I try not to focus my attacks too much on a single enemy, but they just love me for some reason. If possible, I allow someone else to engage first and work the mob perimeter with assassinates and sneak attacks, but I always get a giant or two that turns around and starts obliterating me.

At epic levels I can usually find a few people to run with and take advantage of my assassin skills, but heroic levels can be brutal on the TR train and I don't feel like much has been done to remedy the problem.

I've personally found rogues to be hard to solo without being very clever with gear choices and a great deception item. I'd rather play in a party, but we all know how hard it can be to find a decent PUG, especially under level 10. I guess I'm just annoyed that its so difficult to use sneak effectively when not in a party. My main beef is not the amount of damage I'm doing, because that's clearly enough to draw aggro, but the fact that I can't escape it reliably.

Not to derail the thread, but I wanted to respond.

[Bluegirl_Two]

I try not to focus my attacks too much on a single enemy, but they just love me for some reason.

Assassinate seems to drop off in epic content unless you are exceptionally well geared -- or so it seems to me.

I would assume that if you do not focus on a single enemy but are moving around attacking several of them before the initial targets are dead that it explains where some of your aggro is coming from.

[-Avalon-]

Yes, and with the new Harper Tree, Assassins will be getting a major boost, as they can put all points into Intelligence for Attack/Damage, and enjoy the bonus to Assassinate as well.

[XodousRoC]

But yes, I would like to see more named light/buckler shields for a wide variety of levels. It seems that heroic levels have been completely written off, but it would be nice. Maybe some new stuff being added to the seasonal events like Mabar and Crystal Cove? That seems like an option that would appeal to the entire player base, no matter what level they like to play.

Adding them to the events would be a start for sure. Not an end, but a good start since we could craft various levels (like the Cove buckler...though I generally consider that more entry level epic).

I think just about everyone will have at least one character in their stable that will need a complete rework after this pass, so I feel your pain if your favorite toon needs to be reworked from square 1, but the +20heart seems to have been a one time thing. I'd like to request a BTA +20 heart, one per account, with this update.

This would make perfect sense. It isn't like we all have every toon getting the stick here. I could personally live without a +20 heart, but for all those affected, this would be a very appropriate response.

[psymun]

I think a single +20 BTA Heart of wood would make a lot of sense due to this quote from Severlin:

We have been going through player feedback and one of the concerns is that there is no compelling reason to level a Paladin past the early levels.
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/443355

It's clear that a large reason for the changes to Paladin are to compel people to use more levels. Therefore, a +20 Heart of wood would make sense.

[Zurrander]

I agree that there needs to be more 'quality' items all around. If you check one of my posts (I think in this thread even), you will see that the list of weapons available for Favored Souls to use as Deity Favored Weapons past lvl 25 (minus Thunder-Forged) is under 10 (for 6 different weapons, so 1 or 2 weapons TOTAL per type)... I wouldn't call that an acceptable variety that when you are one of the Forgotten Realms races you are limited to Heavy Mace, and there's only 1 of those (aside from TF) past lvl 25, and it isn't that good. For great swords, you are stuck with a choice of 2 (I think), and so on... So, yes, I am very much in favor of more items of quality to be found in the game.

Problem with 'quality' is what makes them have 'quality'?



Trying to use actual definitions of words to define D&D mechanics will inevitably lead you astray. Yes, the two words in English mean nearly the same thing... In D&D they do not. Reflex save is your ability to move in such a way as to avoid partial damage from a spell or effect allowing a reflex save (to graphically represent this would be to shut the servers down any time 12 people went on a raid lol, WAY too much stress, so you aren't going to get the true representation) But, if you honestly believe that to avoid 100% of the damage from a 40 ft diameter ball of magical fire that is so hot that it can even melt some metals and disintegrate some rocks all you need to do is a subtle sidestep, then yes, there is no point debating with you because you firmly believe and love evasion working exactly as it does and nothing should ever change.

Additionally, if you believe that to dodge a downward swing of a claymore requires the same amount of dexterity and maneuverability that is needed to avoid 100% damage from that fireball above... then how come Evasion is not just granted automatically to everyone? My paladin can get 3% dodge, so he should be able to evade as well, they require the same things, and "IF you can Dodge with no penalties you should be able to Evade with no penalties" right? Or, do you mean that only having 3% dodge implies a 'penalty? Because, I've seen some monks and rogues in light/no armor with 10% or less dodge... What about the half-orc fighter with 25% dodge? That should grant evasion, though, right? We need some serious qualifiers here... because your method is WAY too open to interpretation... Or would you just settle for "Dodge" & "Evasion" are NOT the same, require vastly different skills and maneuverability (as proven by only a few people having Evasion, while everyone gets Reflex Saves and Dodge)... but, please, feel free to continue to argue Semantics vs Mechanics + Logic...

You realize that this really is a straw man? I never said that one should auto grand the other, I said that the requirements should be (and are) the same. That super dodging barbarian wouldn't be wearing Heavy armor or using a tower shield now will he? That's because getting your dodge that high requires light or no armor (just like evasion). So if your Half-Orc barbarian wants to splash two levels of rouge then he can (and should be able to) evade all he likes under that same requirements he's dodging under. And stop pretending like AOE is the only type of evading, or that Dodging doesn't let you get out of the way of attacks that obviously hit you (Like your example of the Great Sword, But at point blank range on a side swing... Does this guy not have to jump back to get out of the way just as much as someone evading an explosion). Once again, evasion is getting nerfed (and I've made peace with that "my main switched to light shields on live a month ago"), but its dishonest to pretend that Evading is somehow different from Dodging. (and by a PENALTY, i mean having major restrictions on your max dex bonus, like those imposed by Heavy-Med Armor and Tower Shields)

So, just to be clear. Dodge at Full steam & Evade with this http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Alchemical_Light_Shield (6 pounds, Med size)
But can't Evade, yet still Dodge just as Well with this http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Battleworn_Shield_of_Cyre (10 pounds, Small Size)

Pretend that it makes since all you like, but its never going to. (was it the extra 4 pounds are the huge size difference that stops you from evading again?)

[tfc_generalKMK]

You realize that this really is a straw man? I never said that one should auto grand the other, I said that the requirements should be (and are) the same. That super dodging barbarian wouldn't be wearing Heavy armor or using a tower shield now will he? That's because getting your dodge that high requires light or no armor (just like evasion). So if your Half-Orc barbarian wants to splash two levels of rouge then he can (and should be able to) evade all he likes under that same requirements he's dodging under. And stop pretending like AOE is the only type of evading, or that Dodging doesn't let you get out of the way of attacks that obviously hit you (Like your example of the Great Sword, But at point blank range on a side swing... Does this guy not have to jump back to get out of the way just as much as someone evading an explosion). Once again, evasion is getting nerfed (and I've made peace with that "my main switched to light shields on live a month ago"), but its dishonest to pretend that Evading is somehow different from Dodging. (and by a PENALTY, i mean having major restrictions on your max dex bonus, like those imposed by Heavy-Med Armor and Tower Shields)

they may be similar but in game mechanics they can't be more different dodge applies to everything

evasion is on reflex saves only

[Zurrander]

they may be similar but in game mechanics they can't be more different dodge applies to everything

evasion is on reflex saves only

And that's about the only difference. (Not sure how that means they "Can't be more different").

[tfc_generalKMK]

And that's about the only difference. (Not sure how that means they "Can't be more different").

ok that phrase might have been over the top sorry, but they are different mechanically and thus can't be treated as the same...

[-Avalon-]

You realize that this really is a straw man? I never said that one should auto grand the other, I said that the requirements should be (and are) the same. That super dodging barbarian wouldn't be wearing Heavy armor or using a tower shield now will he? That's because getting your dodge that high requires light or no armor (just like evasion). So if your Half-Orc barbarian wants to splash two levels of rouge then he can (and should be able to) evade all he likes under that same requirements he's dodging under. And stop pretending like AOE is the only type of evading, or that Dodging doesn't let you get out of the way of attacks that obviously hit you (Like your example of the Great Sword, But at point blank range on a side swing... Does this guy not have to jump back to get out of the way just as much as someone evading an explosion). Once again, evasion is getting nerfed (and I've made peace with that "my main switched to light shields on live a month ago"), but its dishonest to pretend that Evading is somehow different from Dodging. (and by a PENALTY, i mean having major restrictions on your max dex bonus, like those imposed by Heavy-Med Armor and Tower Shields)

So, just to be clear. Dodge at Full steam & Evade with this http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Alchemical_Light_Shield (6 pounds, Med size)
But can't Evade, yet still Dodge just as Well with this http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Battleworn_Shield_of_Cyre (10 pounds, Small Size)

Pretend that it makes since all you like, but its never going to. (was it the extra 4 pounds are the huge size difference that stops you from evading again?)

Obviously you aren't understanding, I am not saying you directly said that they should auto-grant each other, I am saying that by your logic they MUST auto-grant each other.

If everyone can dodge (which they can, because even if all you have is 1%, you can still perform a dodge!), and under your logic that if you can dodge, then you can evade, that means everyone SHOULD get evasion... because they require the exact same skillset according to you.

Mathematically:
If a=b, and b=c, then a=c
a= evasion
b= dodge
c= everyone

If evasion = dodge (for requirements sake), and dodge = everyone (because everyone meets the non-existent requirements of dodge), then logically: Evasion = Everyone as well.

That isn't a straw man, I didn't set up some false originating position so that I could easily blow it down: you set up that basic set of variables, all I did was show how you cannot logically work that way. Dodge is vs physical attacks, and only requires simple movements in the immediate location (arrow shoots towards you, you sidestep; a WF swings his 2H across your middle, so you duck; he swings back at your feet, you jump a foot off the ground : EASY movements that almost everyone CAN perform, but gets increasingly more difficult as you get more encumbered or start wearing less forgiving armors)

Evasion is a special training reserved for rogues and monks (and some higher professions like Shadow Dancer or the most proficient Swashbucklers)... it requires someone of peak agility or someone to train extensively in that particular skill (hence it being one of the main bonuses of being a monk or rogue, there are others, but where Rangers train for TWF and bows, these guys get to evade)

As an example:
Rangers can TWF, rogues can evade. Everyone CAN TWF, but just not very well; same with Evasion, everyone CAN evade, just not very well (hence we all have basic Reflex Saves)... Evasion is equal in power to a bonus feat, and thus I have always argued that it should be available as a feat with a requirement of something like "Dex or Int 15" & maybe "Dodge (feat)"... but until then, it is as trained and skilled as Spring Attack, Improved Critical, etc... Not some simple ability that is equal to being able to walk without tripping over your shoelaces...

[4tonmantis]

I think part of the thing that makes this hard to swallow, is that the primary ability stats are so far beyond what you would see in a normal game of DnD. We have characters with what would be beyond titan strength in tabletop. For all intents and purposes, a character with that much strength would not even notice the shield, let alone be hampered by it, especially if their dexterity were also at that level. We're talking about characters who are stronger than several professional weight lifters combined, more agile than any living creature on the planet..

There have been rules in the past in tabletop for dual wielding two-handed weapons. I am not certain but I think in tabletop the minimum Str required was 21 or something. Whatever the case, if we were talking about characters with stats anywhere close to being that of a warrior in our historical periods, then I would buy all of these arguments about "oh it's too heavy for that" or whatever.. but let's be real, we're talking about a bunch of min-maxed super humans.

[Zurrander]

"Obviously you aren't understanding, I am not saying you directly said that they should auto-grant each other, I am saying that by your logic they MUST auto-grant each other." - Avalon

I'm not even going to touch your math (as that wasn't an equation)... Now, its obvious that logic isn't your subject so I'll try to explain this through examples.
You say that "by my logic they must auto-grant each other" with is to say "meeting Requirements = Auto-grant". Now it should be obvious why this is bunk, but i'll elaborate anyway.
I say that "meeting the requirements of one feat, means that you should be able to get other feats with the same requirements" with is to say "Requirements = same Requirements"

Examples
1. Most fighters meet the requirements for Bastard Sword Proficiency, yet its not auto granted. Bastard Sword Proficiency has similar requirements to Power Attack, yet one still does not auto-grant the other. Yet being able to get one, does mean that you can get the other!
2. Dex based builds often meet the requirements for dodge (the feat), yet its not auto granted. Dodge has similar (notice that i don't say the same) requirements to precision, yet having one does not grant the other, but being able to get one does mean that you can (very likely) get the other.
3. Improved Shield bash, Shield Mastery, & Shield Deflection all have the same requirements, meeting those requirements doesn't auto-grant the feat, having one or even two of these does not auto-grant the others. But! being able to take one does mean that you can take the other.

Now, making the argument that "you can dodge with 1%" is very dishonest. I've explained that the requirements for evading are similar to the requirements to dodging well (15% and up) are the same. not that the base min requirements are the same. Once again, to evade, or to dodge well you need Light or no armor, you cannot use a tower shield (or shouldn't in the case of evasion) and your likely to have high dex/reflex. now if you have a rebuttal (and i really hope you don't) then i would appreciate you actually refuting the points I've made, instead of making up an argument for me and then strutting around like a peacock when you've squashed it. And you might want to look up "Straw Man"...