Revise Fatesinger and Shadowdancer to work better with Artificer--also arti tree

[PsychoBlonde]

So, I've seen more than a few people (and I agree) saying that Arti needs some more oomph for epic levels. What they could REALLY use is a destiny that's better geared toward artificer. But adding another destiny now doesn't seem like the best idea ever, so here's my suggestion:

Rework Fatesinger (which is weak anyway) to work well for both bards and artis. Here's how I think it could be done well:

Remove all the bonus songs and the granting of Inspire Courage from Fatesinger. Bards don't need that many bonus songs, and gearing the abilities of the tree to work off songs doesn't work very well. Plus that Inspire Courage grant is annoying as **** because once you get it, every time you spend a single point in ANY DANG TREE it kicks Inspire Courage off your quick bar. So get rid of that nonsense--an epic destiny shouldn't be so geared toward something that's a feature of a single class, anyway.

While we're on the subject, Music of the Spider Queen is broken--it initially fascinates vermin BUT they seem to be flagging as immune when it comes time for them to roll their save against it so they break in like, 3 seconds. Every time. Regardless of your skill. It's really annoying.

Add more spell points grants to the innate abilities, and also a good portion of ranged/melee power.

Make Reign work off spell points and make it affected by spellpower.

Instead of strength/charisma make it charisma/int. Strength-based bards aren't going to use this tree, anyway, they're going to use DC or LD or FotW.

Rework most of the abilities so that they are specialist buffs that use spell points instead of stacking on Inspire Courage (or maybe make them multiselectors so you can pick a buff OR a song thing). Dirge is terribad. Fix it. You can't have multiple Echoes of the Ancestors modes active so they should all be on the same ability multiselector instead of taking up so dang much space in the middle of the tree. Replace at least one of them with a runearm-buffing ability. Decrease the cooldown on Turn of the Tide and make it work on bosses.

I only have four suggestions for Shadowdancer:

1. take that godawful craptastic useless Shadow Lance ability and just make it "your attacks and spells gain X% chance to blind enemies on hit" plus a tiny amount of unholy damage. Why would this be good for arties? Because blinding enemies gives them a much better chance to get their sneak attack.

2. Add increased ranged sneak attack distance to the innate abilities, ending with basically "you're always in range for a sneak attack". That alone will dramatically improve this tree and add a lot of versatility to it for your crossbow rogues/arties. Heck, maybe even add something SPECIFICALLY crossbow-related.

3. The Dark Imbuement Epic Moment is ******. 2d6 unholy damage? Seriously? Increased melee range? Huh? It should be something like 10d6 extra sneak attack damage and some kind of Ultimate Vorpal where you auto-kill everything on a 20 regardless of HP unless it makes an assassination-based saving throw.

4. Make executioner's strike/shot INT based, and make it 100% if they fail the save instead of 35%. The save DC is awful anyway, why in the world should it be only a 35% chance of going off. Oh, and make stuff that modifies assassinate DC work with this as well.

And here's my (not very fleshed-out) idea for the 3rd Arti tree

Make Eldritch Knight the 3rd arti tree. Make Eldritch Strike a multiselector with a ranged version. Make sure the "spellsword" imbues work on ranged weapons if they don't already (or make them multiselectors as well).

I would say "Arcane Archer" except that all that stuff doesn't work with crossbow bolts. Which is lame.

[droid327]

Its a good effort in the right direction but it could use a second pass:

-Fatesinger is still largely a CC tree, and CC is not really the Arti's wheelhouse. If you strip out all the Song bonuses and consolidate Echoes, that's good - but what do you put there instead? You've gutted the tree but not suggested what could replace it that'd be of interest to Artis (or Bards). Possible suggestion: runearm bonuses and Int/Evoc/Caster bonuses, and the core grants Runearm Use, so non-Artis can use them if they're in the destiny (much like GMoF grants Ki), using their "primary" class level as their Arti level for damage calculations. That'd make FS the tree for Caster-focused Artis (since it is in Arcane).

-How would Shadowdancer not just be a weaker version of LD if its all about Sneak damage? Artis - especially Repeater Artis - don't need a tree that gives passive blanket bonuses to DPS. The new LD will accomplish that; DC already accomplishes that. What Artis need is something more like AA: a tree that gives them a toolbox of low-cooldown ranged attacks and utility buffs/imbues they can select for their xbow attacks.

-Artis don't have the SP to support EK. That's a total battery drainer. Plus shields and -ASF are of no use to an Arti, and things like Doublestrike and Tensers are of no use to a Repeater Arti. Though I do like the idea of a "ranged Cleave" AOE attack.

[General_Gronker]

so here's my suggestion:

No thanks. These are terrible suggestions that seem like they don't come from a Bard player. Fatesinger works fine for bards as is. Artificers need their own ED. They don't need to hijack one that they should never really touch (except for the stupid way EDs are set up already).

[PsychoBlonde]

No thanks. These are terrible suggestions that seem like they don't come from a Bard player. Fatesinger works fine for bards as is. Artificers need their own ED. They don't need to hijack one that they should never really touch (except for the stupid way EDs are set up already).

I have a bard. And I don't use Fatesinger because it's a BAD DESTINY, even for bards. The number of bards I see that actually RUN in the Fatesinger destiny is miniscule. Most use Divine Crusader or LD or FotW, and you can see why if you watch them in action. I don't need 47 songs--the ONLY thing I need remotely that many songs for are abilities that actually come from the Fatesinger tree (generally just Reign) that could just as easily run off spell points. Heck, I've run NON-bards in this destiny for epic past lives and I had way more songs than I could ever possibly use.

[PsychoBlonde]

Its a good effort in the right direction but it could use a second pass:

-Fatesinger is still largely a CC tree, and CC is not really the Arti's wheelhouse. If you strip out all the Song bonuses and consolidate Echoes, that's good - but what do you put there instead? You've gutted the tree but not suggested what could replace it that'd be of interest to Artis (or Bards). Possible suggestion: runearm bonuses and Int/Evoc/Caster bonuses, and the core grants Runearm Use, so non-Artis can use them if they're in the destiny (much like GMoF grants Ki), using their "primary" class level as their Arti level for damage calculations. That'd make FS the tree for Caster-focused Artis (since it is in Arcane).

-How would Shadowdancer not just be a weaker version of LD if its all about Sneak damage? Artis - especially Repeater Artis - don't need a tree that gives passive blanket bonuses to DPS. The new LD will accomplish that; DC already accomplishes that. What Artis need is something more like AA: a tree that gives them a toolbox of low-cooldown ranged attacks and utility buffs/imbues they can select for their xbow attacks.

-Artis don't have the SP to support EK. That's a total battery drainer. Plus shields and -ASF are of no use to an Arti, and things like Doublestrike and Tensers are of no use to a Repeater Arti. Though I do like the idea of a "ranged Cleave" AOE attack.

How is Fatesinger a "CC" tree? There is ONE, count it ONE ABILITY IN THE ENTIRE TREE that is a "CC" ability--Bound Fate (it's also a terrible ability because it just says that the DC is "modified" by your charisma instead of actually telling you what it is.) Music of the Spider Queen doesn't count because it doesn't work properly. So, no, it's not a CC "tree". CC bards sometimes use it, but almost all the epic bards I've seen--with full epic CC--run in Divine Crusader because the tree is just that much better. You don't really GET crowd control from Fatesinger. It makes it a teensy bit better if you *already have it*, but that's it.

Artis have plenty of SP--I've done Eldritch Knight on an epic character with under a thousand spell points. Heck, most of the time when I'm running an arti I'm actually at a loss for what to DO with my sp. Blade barrier is nice in many situations but not all, and that's the primary thing I use my SP for. The other spells just either don't do enough damage or require heavy DC investment--and if you're going to be a DC caster, why not just play a wizard or a druid or something with some real spell flexibility?

Adding ranged sneak attack to shadowdancer wouldn't just make it a "weaker" version of LD, it would just make the destiny (which is already solid) more useful for ranged sneak attack. Does LD have an ability where you can dominate a monster, have it fight for you for a while, and then have it instantly die? No. Does LD have an ability where you become immune to negative levels? No. Does LD have a version of implosion? No. I'm all for LD, it's great for split classed melee arties (of which there are plenty). What I'd like to see is some good options for crossbow arties that really play to a number of the class features. Fatesinger and Shadowdancer potentially do that. Shadowdancer, with a few minor tweaks, could become really awesome for mechanic crossbow rogues AND arties. And Fatesinger is a dreadful destiny that needs a rework anyway, so why not kill two birds with one stone, open the destiny up, add some runearm functionality to destinies, and get some new stuff in there?

I don't want to make specific recommendations as to EXACTLY what new stuff to put in Fatesinger, I'd rather be surprised. Adding runearm use as an ability of the destiny is a really clever idea, though. They could make ranks in Fatesinger count as arti levels for the purpose of determining how much damage your runearm does, too. It'd even make sense because, say, Swashbuckler has some runearm-based abilities in the tree. Then you'd have a clear tradeoff--Shadowdancer for some int-based abilities and ranged sneak attack, or Fatesinger for buffs and runearm upgrades. Tradeoffs like that are a good thing. If they wanted to get really clever, they could put in an ability or two where you can add specialized buffs/imbues to your runearm (or to an offhand weapon/buckler, perhaps). This would help out bards, too, because it would create a class of bards that get the most benefit out of Fatesinger. At present, if you're running a pure casting bard (difficult, but not impossible), you probably run in Shiradi or Exalted Angel. If you're running a melee bard, you're in LD or FotW. If you're a mix, you're in Divine Crusader. Make Fatesinger (and Shadowdancer) better for arties, and you simultaneously make it better for bards because you now have a type of bard that actually benefits a lot from Fatesinger. There's synergy. It could be very neat.

And then they can fix Primal Avatar and Magister to not be quite so lame (and maybe a teensy bit Draconic Incarnation and GMoF), and picking your destiny will be really, really hard because they'll actually all be very cool.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

/not signed

There is so much wrong in this tree. It's your responsibility to create a build that encompasses the bard/arti combo you are looking for. Devs should not waste time gutting the bard tree just so they can add arti friendly features.

[PsychoBlonde]

/not signed

There is so much wrong in this tree. It's your responsibility to create a build that encompasses the bard/arti combo you are looking for. Devs should not waste time gutting the bard tree so they can add arti friendly features.

Did I say I wanted to *create* a bard/arti combo? I think the class could use some options. I've done a few arti lives (and I have a bard) but I like my straight bard and I generally don't play my artis at epic levels--they're strictly for past lives.

And how would this "gut" Fatesinger? Everything it already has would still be there (apart from unneeded extra songs and a near-useless bugtastic annoyance). It would get MORE stuff. Because it is TERRIBLE at present. Dirge is awful. Music of the Spider Queen is broken. Reign doesn't add enough damage to be worthwhile in comparison to other destinies. Turn of the Tide has a stupid restriction on it, and half the tree is taken up by abilities that are mutually exclusive and don't do much of anything. Exalted Angel and Unyielding Sentinel, BEFORE the changes, were better than Fatesinger.

Shadowdancer could be awesome, it's just a little too niche at present. But Fatesinger is BAD. It has always BEEN bad, people have simply ignored it because it's the only "official" Bard destiny. But *most* actual bards use something else and are much better off for it. I discovered this in the recent Bardsplosion when everyone was leveling their bards--my housemate and I both dusted ours off and ran a ton of eE content. There were bards everywhere. And every time we'd meet someone new, I'd ask them "oo, what destiny are you in?" The answer was, WITHOUT EXCEPTION, "Divine Crusader", "Legendary Dreadnought" and "Fury of the Wild", unless it was "I'm leveling a crappy off destiny". And then I'd ask them "which off destiny?" and they'd say "Fatesinger".