Turbine now wants to sell PrEs.

[Nayus]

And I thought Bladeforged was bad...

[Vint]

I said that this would happen back when Turbine introduced the new enhancements a good while back and I was told that it would never happen.

What they are offering now does not look terribly OP, but give it some time. People will rationalize this and then within the next 6 months Turbine will be selling really OP enhancements and the all is fine crowd will be there to defend the action. I will wait for people to bash me and say that I am wrong about this as well, but I was right about them selling enhancements when they first released the new version of them.

[jalont]

I said that this would happen back when Turbine introduced the new enhancements a good while back and I was told that it would never happen.

What they are offering now does not look terribly OP, but give it some time. People will rationalize this and then within the next 6 months Turbine will be selling really OP enhancements and the all is fine crowd will be there to defend the action. I will wait for people to bash me and say that I am wrong about this as well, but I was right about them selling enhancements when they first released the new version of them.

What is there to defend? This is clearly what the playerbase wants. When you demand the removal of all challenge and make the game nothing but a more detailed version of Farmville where you build toons (farms) through various grinds, you're going to get Farmville monetization. Why? Because all other forms of monetization becomes unavailable when the playerbase that would support that type of monetization leaves the game for one that better suits their tastes.

Of course people will complain that this isn't what they truly want, but it is. They're just unable to fully look at cause and effect.

[PermaBanned]

ViPs get it included, there's a store option for Premiums, and their considering adding it as a Harper Favor unlock as early as U24... Sounds about as shameless as the Artificer sales modle.

They already sell Races & Classes, not sure what the big deal is about Pre lines.

[Nayus]

I said that this would happen back when Turbine introduced the new enhancements a good while back and I was told that it would never happen.

What they are offering now does not look terribly OP, but give it some time. People will rationalize this and then within the next 6 months Turbine will be selling really OP enhancements and the all is fine crowd will be there to defend the action. I will wait for people to bash me and say that I am wrong about this as well, but I was right about them selling enhancements when they first released the new version of them.

To be honest, I don't even know what a Harper does. But I know about PDK and War Wizards, it seems to me they want to release the 2nd weakest tree first to make the classy "a vip tree can't shift power on its own", only to release the broken ones later.

ViPs get it included, there's a store option for Premiums, and their considering adding it as a Harper Favor unlock as early as U24... Sounds about as shameless as the Artificer sales modle.

They already sell Races & Classes, not sure what the big deal is about Pre lines.

VIPs getting it "for free" is only obvious, they're paying for the game.

The big deal is: I can buy a PDK and I know it will be there, I can buy a Druid and I know I will always have access to the class, its enhancement trees, class feats and abilities.
Now I need to buy the PDK, the Druid, the separate trees they're selling for TP, the Epic Destinies in addition to "the game"?

Turbine is setting the new powergaming standards almost every update now. It's only that you used to need the new OP loot and now you need the new OP loot AND the new OP abilities.

[Missing_Minds]

And I remember when 3.0 and 3.5 were out and all the cheep $2 -$5 splat 'books' that were released with PrCs as well.

Your point?

Little hint. You don't have to have everything in game/that is published.

[jalont]

To be honest, I don't even know what a Harper does. But I know about PDK and War Wizards, it seems to me they want to release the 2nd weakest tree first to make the classy "a vip tree can't shift power on its own", only to release the broken ones later.


VIPs getting it "for free" is only obvious, they're paying for the game.

The big deal is: I can buy a PDK and I know it will be there, I can buy a Druid and I know I will always have access to the class, its enhancement trees, class feats and abilities.
Now I need to buy the PDK, the Druid, the separate trees they're selling for TP, the Epic Destinies in addition to "the game"?

Turbine is setting the new powergaming standards almost every update now. It's only that you used to need the new OP loot and now you need the new OP loot AND the new OP abilities.

Define "need". You don't "need" any of it. The playerbase has made sure of that.

[Qhualor]

ViPs get it included, there's a store option for Premiums, and their considering adding it as a Harper Favor unlock as early as U24... Sounds about as shameless as the Artificer sales modle.

They already sell Races & Classes, not sure what the big deal is about Pre lines.

im fine with it tying to favor as long as it isn't like unlocking Artificers. you need 150 to unlock Artificer, but you only get 126 from just quests. you have to 6 star challenges to make up the difference. tying favor to challenges is dumb, imo. they are challenges not quests.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

harper tree is actually very strong in supporting certain builds. why i dont get is why those builds have to pay for a new tree which is giving them the tools they need to succeed at what theyre supposed to be good at when those tools should just be in the trees theyre appropriate for in the first place, while also giving even the fotm builds access to useful low hanging fruit. oh wait i know why because turbine is a business and sometimes we forget that.

and until this has a favor unlockable i still will not like the fact that some will have access to a lot of extra power/options (regardless of whether or not they use it) that many dont. but thats the f2pay system.

this is the same kind of bad as bladeforged, but lesser in scale i think because in my opinion bladeforged is more useful to more builds. harper will just bring certain niche builds out of the nether realm of gimp.

i do think giving this free to vips was a needed gesture though, vips have been getting the short end of the stick for a while.

[Fefnir_2011]

This bothered me a bit. But then, while talking it over with a friend of mine (who, like me, does a little indie game dev in his spare time), I changed my view. Let me paraphrase what he told me.

I was saying that not being aware of how much the developer of a free-to-play MMO is giving you, for free (patches, content, etc); ignoring all of that and saying that a new, completely optional feature which is paygated is scummy and whatnot - that's crazy. Whether you realize it or not, that's some degree of entitlement you need to watch out for.

Harper is going to add some rather unique and cool usage to the game, and increase viability of builds - the core of Dungeons & Dragons. If you play enough to recognize that you aren't "optimized" without Harper, you've been playing long enough you should give Turbine money. Sorry, but this isn't Pay2Win. It's just Pay to Play.

[Portalcat]

I, for one, welcome this. If this enhancement line likely doesn't happen short of being pay-to-play, then I'd rather it was pay-to-play and exists than it not existing.

My lines are that it (a) should be reasonably balanced and make sense within the game, as any other enhancement tree should, and (b) it should be available to me through my paid VIP subscription since presumably access to new content is one of the things I'm paying for.

If you play enough to recognize that you aren't "optimized" without Harper, you've been playing long enough you should give Turbine money. Sorry, but this isn't Pay2Win. It's just Pay to Play.

The friend who got me into DDO pitched it as a "free-to-play game until about level 15". That was basically right. I think it's reasonable to say that if you sink enough hours into this game to get past that point, you probably are playing enough to justify paying the nominal monthly subscription price or buying content anyway.

[Grailhawk]

The game needs a way to keep the lights on this is fine its not different then selling classes or races.

[PermaBanned]

harper tree is actually very strong in supporting certain builds. why i dont get is why those builds have to pay for a new tree which is giving them the tools they need to succeed at what theyre supposed to be good at when those tools should just be in the trees theyre appropriate for in the first place, while also giving even the fotm builds access to useful low hanging fruit. oh wait i know why because turbine is a business and sometimes we forget that.

and until this has a favor unlockable i still will not like the fact that some will have access to a lot of extra power/options (regardless of whether or not they use it) that many dont. but thats the f2pay system.

this is the same kind of bad as bladeforged, but lesser in scale i think because in my opinion bladeforged is more useful to more builds. harper will just bring certain niche builds out of the nether realm of gimp.

i do think giving this free to vips was a needed gesture though, vips have been getting the short end of the stick for a while.

(In short: ) "a lot of power/options... that will just bring certain niche builds out of the nether realm of gimp." Isn't that somewhat contradictory?

[Vint]

Harper is going to add some rather unique and cool usage to the game, and increase viability of builds - the core of Dungeons & Dragons. If you play enough to recognize that you aren't "optimized" without Harper, you've been playing long enough you should give Turbine money. Sorry, but this isn't Pay2Win. It's just Pay to Play.

It will become a problem when people rationalize that it is okay and then they start selling OP trees. They continue to nerf what is in game because it is OP, but then when they sell OP, all is fine?

Again, not saying this tree is OP, but the more people rationalize it the less of a shock it will be when we see some really OP trees coming out.

[SilkofDrasnia]

Selling trees is on par with leveling sigils in my book.

[jalont]

It will become a problem when people rationalize that it is okay and then they start selling OP trees. They continue to nerf what is in game because it is OP, but then when they sell OP, all is fine?

Again, not saying this tree is OP, but the more people rationalize it the less of a shock it will be when we see some really OP trees coming out.

I'm sorry, you see nerfs in places? Holy ****, I see nothing but buff, buff, buff over the last year.

[Oxarhamar]

Selling trees is on par with leveling sigils in my book.

Let's see.

Without Harper tree you can play anything in the game other than that tree. (Other store purchased classes etc excluded)

Without a leveling Sigil you can't progress past LVL 4 etc...

You compare those?

Better comparison is to Monk class or EDs.

[SilkofDrasnia]

Let's see.

Without Harper tree you can play anything in the game other than that tree. (Other store purchased classes etc excluded)

Without a leveling Sigil you can't progress past LVL 4 etc...

You compare those?

Better comparison is to Monk class or EDs.

No, it is not a new race or class or new adv pack it is pure gating just like the leveling sigils used to be. As a premium I do not mind giving my money to help the game continue but for something as basic as a pre, that's some BS right there just like leveling sigils were.

EDS were part of an XPACK.

When the game was circling the drain they went from sub to a f2p/premium/sub system, I guess the free loaders like some VIPs like to think we are helped this game out, BUT it was clear we would have to pay for new content such as adv. packs races, classes etc etc.

They then proceeded to add new things like otto boxes etc etc, okay we can live with the p2w but this is a big boatload of BS. BLOODY ENHANCEMENT SHOULD NOT BE FOR SALE PERIOD.

Otherwise I say find balls, grow spine, add sigils back, sell feats, sell APs etc and stop twinkle toeing around the dang bush.

[Fefnir_2011]

It will become a problem when people rationalize that it is okay and then they start selling OP trees. They continue to nerf what is in game because it is OP, but then when they sell OP, all is fine?

Again, not saying this tree is OP, but the more people rationalize it the less of a shock it will be when we see some really OP trees coming out.

Let's assume they make some horribly OP tree that gives +100 melee power and a heal SLA. VIPs get it, available to everyone else for 695 TP. How's that different than anyone buying FvS or Monk? or Bladeforged?

Nothing stays at the top of the DDO food chain for long. Anyone who's play for a few years will tell you that.

[Oxarhamar]

No, it is not a new race or class or new adv pack it is pure gating just like the leveling sigils used to be. As a premium I do not mind giving my money to help the game continue but for something as basic as a pre, that's some BS right there just like leveling sigils were.

EDS were part of an XPACK.

When the game was circling the drain they went from sub to a f2p/premium/sub system, I guess the free loaders like some VIPs like to think we are helped this game out, BUT it was clear we would have to pay for new content such as adv. packs races, classes etc etc.

They then proceeded to add new things like otto boxes etc etc, okay we can live with the p2w but this is a big boatload of BS. BLOODY ENHANCEMENT SHOULD NOT BE FOR SALE PERIOD.

Otherwise I say find balls, grow spine, add sigils back, sell feats, sell APs etc and stop twinkle toeing around the dang bush.

ED was part if the xpac bundle and are also for sale separately.

There is no gating here the tree is p2w just like monk class but, it doesn't stop your Charicter progressing without it like not having a sigil did.

You can not like the sales if the tree as much as you want doesn't make it a good comparison to sigils.