Turbine now wants to sell PrEs.

[Nayus]

And I thought Bladeforged was bad...

[Vint]

I said that this would happen back when Turbine introduced the new enhancements a good while back and I was told that it would never happen.

What they are offering now does not look terribly OP, but give it some time. People will rationalize this and then within the next 6 months Turbine will be selling really OP enhancements and the all is fine crowd will be there to defend the action. I will wait for people to bash me and say that I am wrong about this as well, but I was right about them selling enhancements when they first released the new version of them.

[jalont]

I said that this would happen back when Turbine introduced the new enhancements a good while back and I was told that it would never happen.

What they are offering now does not look terribly OP, but give it some time. People will rationalize this and then within the next 6 months Turbine will be selling really OP enhancements and the all is fine crowd will be there to defend the action. I will wait for people to bash me and say that I am wrong about this as well, but I was right about them selling enhancements when they first released the new version of them.

What is there to defend? This is clearly what the playerbase wants. When you demand the removal of all challenge and make the game nothing but a more detailed version of Farmville where you build toons (farms) through various grinds, you're going to get Farmville monetization. Why? Because all other forms of monetization becomes unavailable when the playerbase that would support that type of monetization leaves the game for one that better suits their tastes.

Of course people will complain that this isn't what they truly want, but it is. They're just unable to fully look at cause and effect.

[PermaBanned]

ViPs get it included, there's a store option for Premiums, and their considering adding it as a Harper Favor unlock as early as U24... Sounds about as shameless as the Artificer sales modle.

They already sell Races & Classes, not sure what the big deal is about Pre lines.

[Qhualor]

ViPs get it included, there's a store option for Premiums, and their considering adding it as a Harper Favor unlock as early as U24... Sounds about as shameless as the Artificer sales modle.

They already sell Races & Classes, not sure what the big deal is about Pre lines.

im fine with it tying to favor as long as it isn't like unlocking Artificers. you need 150 to unlock Artificer, but you only get 126 from just quests. you have to 6 star challenges to make up the difference. tying favor to challenges is dumb, imo. they are challenges not quests.

[blerkington]

What is there to defend? This is clearly what the playerbase wants. When you demand the removal of all challenge and make the game nothing but a more detailed version of Farmville where you build toons (farms) through various grinds, you're going to get Farmville monetization. Why? Because all other forms of monetization becomes unavailable when the playerbase that would support that type of monetization leaves the game for one that better suits their tastes.

Of course people will complain that this isn't what they truly want, but it is. They're just unable to fully look at cause and effect.

Hi,

Saying that purchasable PREs is what the players want is a pretty big generalisation. It's probably fairer to say that some don't, some don't mind, and some really do want it. What people say on the forums might help work out what the proportions are.

I do love your argument for supporting your claims though. Has this 'you say no but you mean yes' attitude caused you or people around you any problems? Thinking you are best qualified to tell other people what they want seems problematic to me.

Thanks.

[Nayus]

I said that this would happen back when Turbine introduced the new enhancements a good while back and I was told that it would never happen.

What they are offering now does not look terribly OP, but give it some time. People will rationalize this and then within the next 6 months Turbine will be selling really OP enhancements and the all is fine crowd will be there to defend the action. I will wait for people to bash me and say that I am wrong about this as well, but I was right about them selling enhancements when they first released the new version of them.

To be honest, I don't even know what a Harper does. But I know about PDK and War Wizards, it seems to me they want to release the 2nd weakest tree first to make the classy "a vip tree can't shift power on its own", only to release the broken ones later.

ViPs get it included, there's a store option for Premiums, and their considering adding it as a Harper Favor unlock as early as U24... Sounds about as shameless as the Artificer sales modle.

They already sell Races & Classes, not sure what the big deal is about Pre lines.

VIPs getting it "for free" is only obvious, they're paying for the game.

The big deal is: I can buy a PDK and I know it will be there, I can buy a Druid and I know I will always have access to the class, its enhancement trees, class feats and abilities.
Now I need to buy the PDK, the Druid, the separate trees they're selling for TP, the Epic Destinies in addition to "the game"?

Turbine is setting the new powergaming standards almost every update now. It's only that you used to need the new OP loot and now you need the new OP loot AND the new OP abilities.

[Missing_Minds]

And I remember when 3.0 and 3.5 were out and all the cheep $2 -$5 splat 'books' that were released with PrCs as well.

Your point?

Little hint. You don't have to have everything in game/that is published.

[G_Lich]

And I remember when 3.0 and 3.5 were out and all the cheep $2 -$5 splat 'books' that were released with PrCs as well.

Your point?

Little hint. You don't have to have everything in game/that is published.

I just don't understand why kids expect things to be literally free... as if it is deserved somehow.

I say kids, because to assume adults would think everything should genuinely be free would be insulting to those adults, since they don't know how commerce works. F2P is just like sitting at the mall in the food court only taking samples every 5 minutes without ever buying lunch. Yes its possible but without $, the samples run out.

[Oxarhamar]

I just don't understand why kids expect things to be literally free... as if it is deserved somehow.

I say kids, because to assume adults would think everything should genuinely be free would be insulting to those adults, since they don't know how commerce works. F2P is just like sitting at the mall in the food court only taking samples every 5 minutes without ever buying lunch. Yes its possible but without $, the samples run out.

But those free samples taste so good.

[jalont]

To be honest, I don't even know what a Harper does. But I know about PDK and War Wizards, it seems to me they want to release the 2nd weakest tree first to make the classy "a vip tree can't shift power on its own", only to release the broken ones later.


VIPs getting it "for free" is only obvious, they're paying for the game.

The big deal is: I can buy a PDK and I know it will be there, I can buy a Druid and I know I will always have access to the class, its enhancement trees, class feats and abilities.
Now I need to buy the PDK, the Druid, the separate trees they're selling for TP, the Epic Destinies in addition to "the game"?

Turbine is setting the new powergaming standards almost every update now. It's only that you used to need the new OP loot and now you need the new OP loot AND the new OP abilities.

Define "need". You don't "need" any of it. The playerbase has made sure of that.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

harper tree is actually very strong in supporting certain builds. why i dont get is why those builds have to pay for a new tree which is giving them the tools they need to succeed at what theyre supposed to be good at when those tools should just be in the trees theyre appropriate for in the first place, while also giving even the fotm builds access to useful low hanging fruit. oh wait i know why because turbine is a business and sometimes we forget that.

and until this has a favor unlockable i still will not like the fact that some will have access to a lot of extra power/options (regardless of whether or not they use it) that many dont. but thats the f2pay system.

this is the same kind of bad as bladeforged, but lesser in scale i think because in my opinion bladeforged is more useful to more builds. harper will just bring certain niche builds out of the nether realm of gimp.

i do think giving this free to vips was a needed gesture though, vips have been getting the short end of the stick for a while.

[PermaBanned]

harper tree is actually very strong in supporting certain builds. why i dont get is why those builds have to pay for a new tree which is giving them the tools they need to succeed at what theyre supposed to be good at when those tools should just be in the trees theyre appropriate for in the first place, while also giving even the fotm builds access to useful low hanging fruit. oh wait i know why because turbine is a business and sometimes we forget that.

and until this has a favor unlockable i still will not like the fact that some will have access to a lot of extra power/options (regardless of whether or not they use it) that many dont. but thats the f2pay system.

this is the same kind of bad as bladeforged, but lesser in scale i think because in my opinion bladeforged is more useful to more builds. harper will just bring certain niche builds out of the nether realm of gimp.

i do think giving this free to vips was a needed gesture though, vips have been getting the short end of the stick for a while.

(In short: ) "a lot of power/options... that will just bring certain niche builds out of the nether realm of gimp." Isn't that somewhat contradictory?

[drewrayder]

I said that this would happen back when Turbine introduced the new enhancements a good while back and I was told that it would never happen.

What they are offering now does not look terribly OP, but give it some time. People will rationalize this and then within the next 6 months Turbine will be selling really OP enhancements and the all is fine crowd will be there to defend the action. I will wait for people to bash me and say that I am wrong about this as well, but I was right about them selling enhancements when they first released the new version of them.

Being right i guess is the only thing that matters....like the other guy said...this is what people want. shrug. I love ddo, I don't like turbine...so I will simply buy what needs to be bought and move on enjoying my character. Seems to me a less stressful way of looking at things.

[Vint]

Being right i guess is the only thing that matters....like the other guy said...this is what people want. shrug. I love ddo, I don't like turbine...so I will simply buy what needs to be bought and move on enjoying my character. Seems to me a less stressful way of looking at things.

Spending money on the game is the least of my worries. In my life I have worked for everything I own and am not looking for some DDO welfare. What troubles me is what introducing this tree means.

Just look at BF and WF. Both are robots that have extremely similar traits, but one gets a tree that grants auto reconstruct. If this was not in the tree, BF would have hardly sold. This is what I fear with the selling of pre’s. The Harper tree is fine, but if Turbine really wants to sell these they are going to have to be more powerful an option than what we currently have.

So there are two problems. Turbine will continue to sell power creep items in the store as well as nerfing things in game because they are to OP, then they turn around and sell something that is just as OP in the store.

Again, I am not stressed about Turbine “stealing” my $5 if I do buy a tree, I am upset that this is the model for making money. Unfortunately this is their answer to a declining population. Don’t try to retain and advertise for new people; just gouge the players that remain. As more and more walk away it will only get worse.

[Fefnir_2011]

This bothered me a bit. But then, while talking it over with a friend of mine (who, like me, does a little indie game dev in his spare time), I changed my view. Let me paraphrase what he told me.

I was saying that not being aware of how much the developer of a free-to-play MMO is giving you, for free (patches, content, etc); ignoring all of that and saying that a new, completely optional feature which is paygated is scummy and whatnot - that's crazy. Whether you realize it or not, that's some degree of entitlement you need to watch out for.

Harper is going to add some rather unique and cool usage to the game, and increase viability of builds - the core of Dungeons & Dragons. If you play enough to recognize that you aren't "optimized" without Harper, you've been playing long enough you should give Turbine money. Sorry, but this isn't Pay2Win. It's just Pay to Play.

[Portalcat]

I, for one, welcome this. If this enhancement line likely doesn't happen short of being pay-to-play, then I'd rather it was pay-to-play and exists than it not existing.

My lines are that it (a) should be reasonably balanced and make sense within the game, as any other enhancement tree should, and (b) it should be available to me through my paid VIP subscription since presumably access to new content is one of the things I'm paying for.

If you play enough to recognize that you aren't "optimized" without Harper, you've been playing long enough you should give Turbine money. Sorry, but this isn't Pay2Win. It's just Pay to Play.

The friend who got me into DDO pitched it as a "free-to-play game until about level 15". That was basically right. I think it's reasonable to say that if you sink enough hours into this game to get past that point, you probably are playing enough to justify paying the nominal monthly subscription price or buying content anyway.

[Grailhawk]

The game needs a way to keep the lights on this is fine its not different then selling classes or races.

[Avenging_Angel]

As with everything, I will believe the paid tree when I see it officially announced. I've been told about it today by guildies and it sounds so, so wrong to me.

The game needs a way to keep the lights on this is fine its not different then selling classes or races.

Path of Exile is doing it right. You can have a fair monetization policy and still stay afloat. Selling a lump sum of xp is wrong. Selling a raw amount of power is wrong, because...

It will become a problem when people rationalize that it is okay and then they start selling OP trees. They continue to nerf what is in game because it is OP, but then when they sell OP, all is fine?

You can't trust them to release reasonable content which can be reasonably completed by a reasonable slice of the population without the p2w op features. We need to stand against this now, not when the camouflaged gate to content is already too late and rooted into the game.

The fact people are justifying crappy behaviour just because "they are a company, they need to make money and I'm ok with being screwed" is unbelievable.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

As with everything, I will believe the paid tree when I see it officially announced. I've been told about it today by guildies and it sounds so, so wrong to me.



Path of Exile is doing it right. You can have a fair monetization policy and still stay afloat. Selling a lump sum of xp is wrong. Selling a raw amount of power is wrong, because...



You can't trust them to release reasonable content which can be reasonably completed by a reasonable slice of the population without the p2w op features. We need to stand against this now, not when the camouflaged gate to content is already too late and rooted into the game.

The fact people are justifying crappy behaviour just because "they are a company, they need to make money and I'm ok with being screwed" is unbelievable.

why have a fair monetization policy when its clear that your customer base is willing to pay through the nose for obvious cash grabs, arbitrary power sales, and blatant obstacle bypasses?

its already too late.