Turbine now wants to sell PrEs.

[pooscoo1488]

Oh hey it's the weekend popcorn thread! Some people just aren't ever going to be happy. There are people in this thread who 5 years ago the first post I ever read sounds exactly the same as the ones in this thread, they have literally never posted anything but those kinds of posts... Over years they accumulate like dirt on a filter. Becoming more in number and volume, just like heavy sludge accumulates at the bottom of the bucket. This forum needs a backflush. Blast all the accumulated sediment out. They can always hang out over in "the grease trap".

Monk, Half Orc, Artificer, Bladeforged, FvS, Harper Agent, PDK, Shadar Kai, Epic Destinies, Drow... One of these is not like... er no wait... All of these are exactly like the others.

Claiming this is something new and over the top is just "oh look at me I'm complaining again just to complain" hyperbole. It's worse than that, because it's clearly not new, and they clearly KNOW it's not new, and yet here they are bold faced trying to dress it up and parade it around like some new Evil they've found out. Pretending it's a big deal anyway out of boredom or just shameless dishonesty.

This right here folks, The rep from the greatest dwarven clan in the history of Arcanum is spot on.

Infact any argument over pay to win ended with the introduction of mana pots. No big surprise when I invested in big TP pack sales, Id then wait for a big sale on mana pots, because NOTHING IN THIS GAME DOES MORE FOR A CHARACTER THEN INFIMANA !

Not one of my caster characters has ever failed a quest when they had blue to spare, and with pots I always have blue to spare. I dont try to go over my head and know if my caster doesnt have the DCs what dif to run in. First rule of survival for any mage since the earlier eds, know your limits and live with them until your power grows to the point you have no limits left. And no one here is going to argue about the power and options available to a X3 completionist arcane caster build. If I ever stick with the game long enough to get there I cant even imagine how much Ill laugh at my toons who have struggled in EH trying to be melee or flavorful specced ranged weaponry builds. My WIP TRing arcane though, I can see the potential I can taste that day when his DCs are making EH trivial and EE the PITA I must embrace to push my toon to his limits. But I suspect I wont find any limits because with unlimited mana casters DONT HAVE ANY!

[Oxarhamar]

I very rarely bother to log in to the forums,and can always see the Lammania forums when not logged in.

Only time in recent history I've had to log in to see them was when Shadowfell was in beta.

Moved to lama think that's a sign

[Uska]

As a VIP I don't support this as it sets a bad precedence first the non-vip's have to pay then the vip's also it seems to be more power creep I don't think it should be added at all but if it is it should be free to all or least those that have the FR expansion since it is a FR flavor thing

[pooscoo1488]

As a VIP I don't support this as it sets a bad precedence first the non-vip's have to pay then the vip's also it seems to be more power creep I don't think it should be added at all but if it is it should be free to all or least those that have the FR expansion since it is a FR flavor thing

I concur with this instead of it being a vip thing it should be a perk thrown to those who bought into MOTU, as I know of those in game who still havent and refuse to spread over to FR for any reason. Thus I dont think those who refuse to take part in the Realms, should just because they are VIP have access to something from there. I say make it require purchase of access to the realms before a VIP can have it open to them at the least.

[FestusHood]

You don't get it. This tree is a trial run that is not OP. The problem is when they start selling more powerful trees in the store and we say it is fine to have OP things. (And we know they will)

I wish Cordo could show you how much I have spent on this game; I would be living in the DDO penthouse. My main problem is we nerf things because they are OP, but is acceptable to unbalance the game via the store.

No sour grapes here my friend as money is not the problem. Balancing the game and the and then unbalancing thru the store is.

Aren't paladins going to be the new dps bombshell? They're still free aren't they?

[FestusHood]

Lack of advertising is indeed crippling. But this game is P2W, the moment you can buy stuff that aids you mechanically, like mana potions, it's P2W. The AH on D3, it's P2W. There's no denying that we lose out new players due to the P2W aspect. The fact that it requires much more investment than before, back in 2009 unlocking everything required a lot of work, but was feasible. Now it clearly isn't. And we also lose out on new players because they look around and they see how far DDO players have gone. It's almost as if completionist is a common thing to have, TRs are the majority of the players, I can't prove it, but it appears to be the case from what I can see.

It's all just speculation, but I really see DDO is getting more and more closed. All this P2W and P2P has an effect.

Are you describing pay to win or pay to play? You mention being able to unlock everything in 2009. Are you suggesting they should have stopped develpment then so you could get caught up, or just make everything since then free?

When you say unlock everything it sure sounds like you are talking about not using any money at all. Do you think they should focus their development attention on what it's possible for people to grind out for free?

If you could reasonably "unlock" everything in 2009, what have you been doing for the last 5 years?

As far as most people being tr's, it's because the game is old. Old enough that third generation newbs like me have had time to do it.

[FestusHood]

This right here folks, The rep from the greatest dwarven clan in the history of Arcanum is spot on.

Infact any argument over pay to win ended with the introduction of mana pots. No big surprise when I invested in big TP pack sales, Id then wait for a big sale on mana pots, because NOTHING IN THIS GAME DOES MORE FOR A CHARACTER THEN INFIMANA !

Not one of my caster characters has ever failed a quest when they had blue to spare, and with pots I always have blue to spare. I dont try to go over my head and know if my caster doesnt have the DCs what dif to run in. First rule of survival for any mage since the earlier eds, know your limits and live with them until your power grows to the point you have no limits left. And no one here is going to argue about the power and options available to a X3 completionist arcane caster build. If I ever stick with the game long enough to get there I cant even imagine how much Ill laugh at my toons who have struggled in EH trying to be melee or flavorful specced ranged weaponry builds. My WIP TRing arcane though, I can see the potential I can taste that day when his DCs are making EH trivial and EE the PITA I must embrace to push my toon to his limits. But I suspect I wont find any limits because with unlimited mana casters DONT HAVE ANY!

Thank you for supporting the game. I have hundreds of mana pots stored up, all of which i got for free. I have failed quests, or at least had a rough time because my blue bar ran dry. The only time i consider drinking them is when my ineffectiveness causes other people to fail. I won't drink them just to keep myself from failing.

[FestusHood]

I concur with this instead of it being a vip thing it should be a perk thrown to those who bought into MOTU, as I know of those in game who still havent and refuse to spread over to FR for any reason. Thus I dont think those who refuse to take part in the Realms, should just because they are VIP have access to something from there. I say make it require purchase of access to the realms before a VIP can have it open to them at the least.

So you're in the camp that it's too nearly free.

[MacRighteous]

IDK... I had to buy Monk and Half Orc if I wanted to play them... or sub.
Isn't this just a natural extension of things already in the store?
I fully endorse Turbine coming up with new and interesting things that earn revenue to keep the game going. Things that cant be duped and things that have some lasting value beyond the moment or for just for one toon.
Yeah it will probably lead to more powerful store PrE's to be attractive enough so people will buy them. But is that any different than what new races and classes have brought to the table and is that a bad thing? The game keeps getting expanded on and the cap has gone from what? 10/12/16/18/20/25 to now: 28? (perhaps 30 soon-ish?) I guess power creep or player power is a consequence of this type of model but as the game gets harder the players must become more powerful. Inevitably a few highly skilled players are always going to surpass the skill and ability of the majority of players by min/max and out of the box thinking and naturally some people will then call it OP and cry Nerf. but i think the majority of the player base (which is not necessarily the majority of forum posters) will just view this as another premium feature(free for VIPs.) I do however think that things like this should also be available to "unlock" via favor or what ever... that would make it available to anyone who
A. Has money to purchase it.
B. Has money to sub for it
C. Has money to both purchase and sub it but is a tightwad PIA
D. Has no money but supports the game by adding to the game population and by being there so you have somebody to play with

[Uska]

So you're in the camp that it's too nearly free.

No it's a FR thing and he feels you should at least have some sort of connection to,that before you use it but as I said it should be free or available for free to everyone who bought the MOTU otherwise everyone should have to buy it including Vip's at least in my mind and yeah I am a long time VIP and no I would never buy it I hate the realms

[Full_Bleed]

As a VIP I don't support this as it sets a bad precedence first the non-vip's have to pay then the vip's also it seems to be more power creep I don't think it should be added at all but if it is it should be free to all or least those that have the FR expansion since it is a FR flavor thing

I actually think it sets the precedent that VIP's won't have to ever pay for special Enhancement trees.

But as far as "optional" goes, tell that to Rogues and Artis that don't use it. It will be like post 20 level players not having Epic Destinies. I just don't think having this kind of power differential between VIP's and Premiums is a very good precedent as it opens the door for more "universal" trees that will be even more necessary for other core classes... and if you don't buy or go VIP you'll be playing an artificially gimped character. How can they possibly make any effort to "balance" the game with that sort of differential?

People who don't play Artis and Rogues now might not care that much (heck, I'm the only one in my static group that will purchase this), but when the times comes that their favorite class get an "optional tree" then people will understand what's going on (i.e. If you really like a particular class, you'll feel like you absolutely *need* to buy the tree to "fix" your character and be where you should be in the current game. It will be as big an "option" as having EDs... which is really NO option at all.)

If people think there will be no difference between a Rogue Harper Assassin and one that's not, they are fooling themselves. Now, extrapolate that out to an entire party of vip's with their FREE universal trees that seriously separate their characters from Premium characters without the free trees. You'll have a game with a grand canyon sized gulf in power between VIPS and Premium players. Is that really where things should be going?

The tree's biggest target audience is Arti and Rogues. It, more than anything, fixes deficiencies in their trees. Sure, you can go without, but the difference between those with and without will be significant. Should they have fixed Pally and Bard by putting out a universal tree for them? Should they fix other classes the same way?

[Tscheuss]

I actually think it sets the precedent that VIP's won't have to ever pay for special Enhancement trees.

But as far as "optional" goes, tell that to Rogues and Artis that don't use it. It will be like post 20 level players not having Epic Destinies. I just don't think having this kind of power differential between VIP's and Premiums is a very good precedent as it opens the door for more "universal" trees that will be even more necessary for other core classes... and if you don't buy or go VIP you'll be playing an artificially gimped character. How can they possibly make any effort to "balance" the game with that sort of differential?

People who don't play Artis and Rogues now might not care that much (heck, I'm the only one in my static group that will purchase this), but when the times comes that their favorite class get an "optional tree" then people will understand what's going on (i.e. If you really like a particular class, you'll feel like you absolutely *need* to buy the tree to "fix" your character and be where you should be in the current game. It will be as big an "option" as having EDs... which is really NO option at all.)

If people think there will be no difference between a Rogue Harper Assassin and one that's not, they are fooling themselves. Now, extrapolate that out to an entire party of vip's with their FREE universal trees that seriously separate their characters from Premium characters without the free trees. You'll have a game with a grand canyon sized gulf in power between VIPS and Premium players. Is that really where things should be going?

The tree's biggest target audience is Arti and Rogues. It, more than anything, fixes deficiencies in their trees. Sure, you can go without, but the difference between those with and without will be significant. Should they have fixed Pally and Bard by putting out a universal tree for them? Should they fix other classes the same way?

The word "Free" is being used in a duplicitous manner. VIP's do not get anything for free, they just pay for it all via sub. Premiums will pay for it in bursts. This is not about VIP's getting something for free that others will have to pay for. VIP's are already paying, constantly.

[Knobull]

HeelllooOOoooo?!? Sooo... what the heck is "pres"?

[Tscheuss]

HeelllooOOoooo?!? Sooo... what the heck is "pres"?

Prestige enhancement tree?

[Vint]

Aren't paladins going to be the new dps bombshell? They're still free aren't they?

Well I will let the paladins have their way.

As players leave the game Turbine still refuses to address the reasons why they leave. They will just add more P2W to offset what they are losing from the players that are walking away.

Just remember this post in a few months’ time when the population is even lower and Turbines answer to increasing revenue is not to retain the players they are losing, but they will add even more OP trees to the game to make up for what they are losing.

[Full_Bleed]

The word "Free" is being used in a duplicitous manner. VIP's do not get anything for free, they just pay for it all via sub. Premiums will pay for it in bursts. This is not about VIP's getting something for free that others will have to pay for. VIP's are already paying, constantly.

The only thing duplicitous is the hair-splitting you're trying to do to avoid the underlying paradigm shift at work here.

VIP's had to PAY for Epic Destinies (a post 20 enhancement tree system) like everyone else, either as part of purchasing the MotU Expansion or as a 995TP extra.

The Harper Enhancement Tree, however, is FREE for VIP. Turbine was under no contractual obligation to give it to VIPs for free (they didn't give you EDs for free did they?). It's just another thing they can use to sweeten their VIP package. But even as some VIPS users have noted, there will be consequences in doing this. Some of which have been covered above.

I don't know about you, but I don't know anyone playing the post 20 game that doesn't have EDs (for good reason). And if Harper is any indication, these Heroic universal trees will be as equally important for certain classes (with more as time goes on). So the idea of them being "optional" ends up being about as honest as saying ED's are "optional" in the end game.

[Severlin]

From the Harper thread; we will be looking to add this as a reward for favor (Harper favor is the most obvious choice here) for Update 24.

Sev~

[lyrecono]

to me this looks like they transformed the iconic harper, they said they were working on, into a prestige enhancement tree.
since were supposed to pay for those second wave iconics anyway i don't see a problem with these either.

1, p2p power creep? meh, you still have only a set amount of enhancement points to begin with. i don't see barbs becoming viable with this all of a sudden due to these.
2, moving away from core into p2p? where have you been the last 30 years? each edition had dozens of splatbooks

@the devs:

does this mean were getting a battle rager line too?

[Thar]

From the Harper thread; we will be looking to add this as a reward for favor (Harper favor is the most obvious choice here) for Update 24.

Sev~

Any rewards for top PDK or Twelve favor yet? An augment bag would have been nice for one (probably twelve makes more sense, small is fine) since these were thrown into the game and the only way to get one was to buy one. probably a little late but... For PDK, maybe a feat for +2 boost to melee/range/spell power?

[B0ltdrag0n]

I think alot fewer people would be angry if this was a racial tree and for flavor reasons called something else. I dont think it could take that much more time to do a few palatte swaps of say Elf (making Grey Elves/Sun Elves) or Human palate swaps with glowy eyes (Aasimir)

I think that if this had been a race there would be far less outcry.