Harper tree feedback

[maddong]

Another jakeelala based build:
drow dex primary with int secondary (nice since drow gets +2 to both and free shuriken expertise) paladin 14/rogue 3/monk 3
monk feats: precision, dodge or deflect arrows
feats: PBS, RS, quickdraw, adept of forms, master of forms, IC thrown, IPS, OC, grandmaster of forms, holy strike, blinding speed, doubleshot
6 drow 2 dex
6 ninja spy extra shuriken
35 harper 4 dex, versatile adept (24 MP/RP), half int to damage, improved deception
15 acrobat shadow dodge 6 dex, 1 dex
11 kotc 3d6 light damage with shurikens
7 ap left to work with if the math is right

[patang01]

~ When we were playing with the tree with extra Charisma in the higher up parts of the tree it gave too much Charisma to Bard builds who just got a big boost in that department, and played a little too well with Paladin. We needed to cut out some Charisma.

~ Versatile Adept is probably too good and should probably be 1/2/3 instead of 2/4/6. That's my bad, as I wrote up the tree early in the Melee Power cycle and didn't adjust. We will be looking for player feedback on these specific enhancements.

~ Yes, Strength does stack higher than other attributes because of, in part, Tenser's and Rage. Strength as a stat is also gives no additional build benefit outside of damage and some tactical DCs. While we did want to give an alternate to Divine Might for other attributes, I doubt we'd want to mimic every Strength boost in the game for all other stats because that would risk making Strength builds obsolete.

Sev~

Oh well, cutting out the Charisma just made most of this tree useless for my builds. Partly because I sacrifice charisma from other sources in order to get some points to put in it. As it seems however my int build, particularly Arti will do well. Thanks for cutting down on the melee power however, that was a unexpected source of it and it seemed a little much. But to be honest here there's nothing in this tree for a majority of classes outside int. And as it seems there's only somewhat of a use for Arti and rogue builds. With Charisma being gone I just don't see a use for it for bards, sorcs or anything that use Charisma. Because at the most I got 2 more points over my previous trees on any time of charisma build. And that wasn't exactly extreme since that also included a heavy reduction in other investments.

I'm glad this is 'free' for VIPs because I just don't see any reason to spend real money on a curiosity tree like this. At least for the limited amount of builds that can truly take advantage of it.

[Saekee]

How much "extra" AP do you have in a Multi-Class build that's available to invest in the Harper's Tree? Yeah, I didn't think so. The big winners here are Pure builds (mostly INT) that want a little boost without splashing.

The pure rogues really need it--and the pure ones are all assassins. With the xp boost from tamper on the way, rogues will be extra fun.

Is it appropriate for a class tree to offer four places for boosting stats? The cores offer 2 along with the usual 2 spots.

I like how someone above used the 'operative' label (srry on portable--quoting is awkward)

[BigErkyKid]

It has a few abilities that are interesting, but I doubt that no one ever would fill up this tree. Sounds like a really bad idea.

To me, it looks like a tree to dump my extra enhancement points when I am playing a pure class. Grab some low hanging fruit that is good (int to damage, hello!) and get a bit of extra bag for my buck for some enhancement points otherwise wasted.

This is something that bugs me. Every single ability should look interesting and competitive, as much as possible.

But who on his right mind would chose to go all the way to take the harper pin ability?

And please, do not add any more +1 abilities, or +20 SP or stuff like that. It gets outdated extremely soon. 3 energy resistance? What are we, in 2009? :P

Overall, I don't think this tree is polished enough. Remove the useless stuff, make everything appealing please.

[redoubt]

While 2/4/6 might be too much, 1/2/3 is too little. Also consider that in practical terms only 3 tiers of it are available. It is doubtful that many people will buy tier 5 in this tree. If they do choose it, then the full 24% might be okay because they are giving up the tier 5 elsewhere.

If the goal is to help some dps challenged classes/builds then looking at how to make the tree work for those builds and not the dps strong builds is in order. I've had smoke coming out of my ears a few times trying to think of a good way to do that already. The one idea I've found that might work is to put an INT requirement on the tree. This would still allow ANY int build, but reduce people splashing it just for the melee power. (That might make the 2/4/6 more workable as well.)

[Clatterfist]

Here is my brief feedback to this tree:

• I like the premise of the tree.
• I enjoy the sort of versatile hybrid characters that this tree ought to support.
• I don't mind that tree itself is rather simple as the characters and playstyles it promotes are likely to have a lot going on by their nature as hybrids, and are probably at least partial spellcasters.
• I think the tiered abilities are generally good, and could see myself taking this tree to Tier 5.
• I think the core abilities are generally poor, and could not see myself taking this tree to Capstone in its present state.

And here's the more verbose and specific feedback:

• The Core Abilities for level 1, 6 and 18 are weak. This isn't such a problem for level 1, as that can be justified as a minor price of access, but people taking the level 6 and especially level 18 abilities are investing beyond the level required to Tier 5 the tree and will likely to be doing so in order to support a hybrid playstyle. A cumulative +3 to hit and damage against evil and a grand total of 10 Spellpower in a tree that offers no universal spellpower growth per point invested is horrible. You could probably do better splitting your points between other trees and that is an extremely bad thing, because Harper needs to offer a better package deal or it's non-functional in its role as a hybrid enabler.
  
• The total spellpower on offer in the tree seems low: you're looking at a maximum including implement and skill gains of around fifty points for a character who takes everything applicable. That's not prohibitively bad, but it's not a great recommendation of the tree either given that it's designed to rely on general bonuses and doesn't have the sort of additional support that you get from other trees. It could stand to be a lot higher without being abusive; and if it were reduced by 12 from halving Versatile Adept then it would start to become hard to see the point.
  
• Versatile Adept's melee and ranged power, on the other hand, probably is too high at a total of 24. That's a 1.24 multiplicative bonus which resembles have a 24% extra chance to doublestrike or something similar. I would still find the tree interesting if it were 1/2/3 instead of 2/4/6: with the caveat that Harpers might need more help in another form to do well as a main tree in the low to mid levels.
  
• Weathered Traveller seems a little weak. I love my static elemental resistances but this is only half the value you get from Eldritch Knight and could be hard to justify.
  
• I particularly like the presence of good thematic options like Highly Skilled, Know Your Foe, and Harper's Leadership.
  
• Either Archmage is too weak at DC boosting or Harper is too strong; I'm inclined to believe it's the former. +1 to the DC of all your spells on Know Your Foe is out of line with existing DC boosting options in the pure caster trees.
  
• Moment of Clarity, however, is very cool and fitting for the tree. OK, it's got a long cooldown, but my! What a lovely button.
  
• Harper Enchantment of Magic is out of whack with the other two options, as it's barely better for casting than Righteousness due to implement bonuses. It's also unlikely to encourage the desired use of the tree because it's a purist option in a tree aimed at hybrids. I'd go for a +3 enhancement bonus and temporary spell points on hit or something.
  
• Vigor of Life seems out of place in the tree to me, but maybe that's just my own perspective. How about something that improves recovery from potions or lets you self-heal a bit? Agent type characters would fit with making good use of prepared resources.
  
• The Capstone is, at best, a neat trick on a long cooldown. It's also got the potential to be extremely annoying as it might not clear the thing you want to it clear because it happens to be an exception, and then you've blown your capstone cooldown for bothing. I've seen this sort of thing before in other games and it's a little gimmicky. It's certainly not a desirable capstone, and also somewhat overlaps with other "break free" stuff like Harper's Pin and epic options, each of which already need a separate key for a similar effect. I'd move this to Tier 5 and make the capstone something more appealing - what's our reason going to be for taking this tree to twenty on a bard or artificer instead of the existing options or a multiclass?

Thanks. Good work, it's awesome to see a tree of this nature come along.

[Severlin]

You can be any class combination and still take the cores; they should be gated by level but not require any specific class levels.

Sev~

[Caprice]

Strategic Combat I: You can use your Intelligence modifier to hit with Melee and Missile weapons.
Strategic Combat II: You can use your Intelligence modifier for damage with Melee and Missile weapons.

Sidestepping the issues around "Know the Angles" for a moment....
I have not downloaded the build, so can anyone clarify the word "Missile" for me in the Strategic Combat enhancements? In particular does it work for Thrown weapons? There has long been ambiguity in the "ranged" word choice because some things that are labeled that way only work on bows and crossbows (e.g. Ranged Alacrity, Ranger PL damage) and other things also work for thrown weapons (ranged special attack enhancements). "Missile" looks to me a lot like a specific word choice that could easily mean "Ranged other than Thrown" (i.e. just bows & crossbows). I am curious to see if INT-based Throwers other than Rogue Mechanic 6+ or Artificer 6+ just became a lot more interesting.

P.S. I only made it to page 8 or so before I stopped reading, so my apologies if there was a big discussion about exactly this point for the following 8 pages.

[Sebastrd]

I just want to chime in and tell you guys (devs) that I think the Harper PRE looks amazing. From concept to execution, you guys did a fantastic job. I can't wait to see more of these "floating" trees in the future. In a way, it's too bad Swashbuckler didn't make it in as this type of tree; I think it would have placated a lot of the naysayers if it weren't tied to Bard.

A few other "classless" trees I'd like to see would be:

• the oft-mentioned Battlerager
• the Master Alchemist (though that might be better as the third Artificer tree...)
• the Horizon Walker
• the Survivor
• the Fleshwarper
• the Walker in the Waste
• the Spelldancer
• definitely the Spellfire Channeller
• the Bladesinger
• the Gatekeeper

[AMADHA]

What is the cost of the Harper tree?(Haven't installed lamma client) Could someone be nice and inform me

DDO Store shows 1pp

[FlaviusMaximus]

Just now noticed that it's an insight bonus to tactics from Know the Angles. This might make it so the bonus isn't enough to land tactical abilities on Int based characters while at the same time the bonus may not offer anything to non-Int-based characters when it comes to tactics.

The damage part is still very good though.

[kmoustakas]

I stand corrected on my last post. I am a pure wf artificer. If I ignore both artificer trees and fill out harper I'll be a much more powerful character. **** you turbine I bet this will suck up all my tp

Sidenote: this is pay to win you know, but who cares IT'S SO FLUFFY!

[AtomicMew]

The harper tree does not do enough for casters. investing all the way up to tier 5 is only roughly 2 spellpower per AP, which is not very strong given how AP limited casters are. Investing below tier 5 gives a much, much lower return for casters.

I'd suggest upping the spellpower from versatile adept. 1 pt in spell power is not the same as 1 pt in melee power. Spellpower is a much weaker effect compared to melee power. Each rank in versatile adept should give at least double the spellpower compared to what it currently gives, with later ranks giving a little bit more to incentivize the investment.

[Bernaise]

Don't think this Tree or any Tree not tied to a class should have a Tier-5. Players will be investing most points into a primary class line, with these Favor/Vanilla trees mostly bringing a little extra support for (mostly) pure builds. That being said, IMHO the Harper Tree and subsequent classless support Trees should be Tier-4 w/Capstone [much like Racial Trees]. I provided a diagram on Page 14 of what that could look like.

[Singular]

I just want to chime in and tell you guys (devs) that I think the Harper PRE looks amazing. From concept to execution, you guys did a fantastic job. I can't wait to see more of these "floating" trees in the future. In a way, it's too bad Swashbuckler didn't make it in as this type of tree; I think it would have placated a lot of the naysayers if it weren't tied to Bard.

A few other "classless" trees I'd like to see would be:

• the oft-mentioned Battlerager
• the Master Alchemist (though that might be better as the third Artificer tree...)
• the Horizon Walker
• the Survivor
• the Fleshwarper
• the Walker in the Waste
• the Spelldancer
• definitely the Spellfire Channeller
• the Bladesinger
• the Gatekeeper

Yeah. If they can make trees for every group, it would be interesting. As it stands, it seems like a p2w thing combined with a boost in power.

Oh well, with all the pw2 in this game at least this one looks enjoyable.

[Zasral]

We really appreciate those of you taking the time to give us great feedback like this. Part of the goal with Harper was to provide new build options in smaller chunks than full races or classes but in a similar manner, as well as add value for our VIPs. The balance of the tree itself is of course subject to change before release, and why we love specific feedback here, and a major reason we preview the gameplay on Lamannia. We've already heard a broad range of opinions as to how powerful Harper is, and there doesn't seem to yet be consensus that it's unbalanced in either a too-strong or too-weak way (though both opinions have been expressed, and more).

So I lr'd my twf pure paladin into first a str/cha build with oc, holy sword, and mp, my base dps almost doubled. Then I lr'd again into a harperdin int based twf pure paladin, even with know the angles not working correctly my dps increased around 30% over the str/cha kotc build. The base damage increases and weapon enhancements, with 4 more mp make it the clear choice over kotc for pure dps. Righteousness, and weapon enhancements are stacking with holy sword. Don't know if that is wai or not. When know the angles works the way it's supposed to, the way divine might always should have, full damage to off hand twf will be around 140-150% of any other fighting style against single target. That is not a bad thing considering how much aoe you give up for single target dps.

[Indianwiz]

The harper tree does not do enough for casters. investing all the way up to tier 5 is only roughly 2 spellpower per AP, which is not very strong given how AP limited casters are. Investing below tier 5 gives a much, much lower return for casters.

I'd suggest upping the spellpower from versatile adept. 1 pt in spell power is not the same as 1 pt in melee power. Spellpower is a much weaker effect compared to melee power. Each rank in versatile adept should give at least double the spellpower compared to what it currently gives, with later ranks giving a little bit more to incentivize the investment.

As per the forum myth, casters are way way way way OP than melee. So your point will be washed down the drain. Do not waste your energy.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

If any of you think this is OP; I would be interested in seeing a breakdown of APs spent to show it.

It is my belief that there is not enough AP to gain a huge benefit from this tree and others at the same time.

I realize a lot of people will min-max and beef up DPS at the expense of anything else. I myself will not so that.
I like the racial trees very much. I tent to max out one class tree, take most things in a racial tree, and have only a few points left over to get something around tier II on another tree.
I don't think there is enough AP for any of my existing toons to really take advantage of the Harper tree.

[redoubt]

If any of you think this is OP; I would be interested in seeing a breakdown of APs spent to show it.

It is my belief that there is not enough AP to gain a huge benefit from this tree and others at the same time.

I realize a lot of people will min-max and beef up DPS at the expense of anything else. I myself will not so that.
I like the racial trees very much. I tent to max out one class tree, take most things in a racial tree, and have only a few points left over to get something around tier II on another tree.
I don't think there is enough AP for any of my existing toons to really take advantage of the Harper tree.

This is not an argument for or against in this specific case. This is just an example of what I dropped and then gained in Harper while keeping the core of my character unchanged.

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post5418718

If assassinate agro mechanics ever get fixed, I will go back to being a pure rogue and use this AP layout instead of the one I had before.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

This is not an argument for or against in this specific case. This is just an example of what I dropped and then gained in Harper while keeping the core of my character unchanged.

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post5418718

If assassinate agro mechanics ever get fixed, I will go back to being a pure rogue and use this AP layout instead of the one I had before.

Looks like a better choice.

A tough choice... lol, but better.

Losing the 50% scroll power is a big one IMO.
But a gain to Int is a big plus.