Harper tree feedback

[Throwdown]

Ok here is another build... I just converted jakeelala's Tinkerhell into a paladin.

halfling dex with int secondary paladin 14/rogue 3/monk 3
possible feat list: shuriken expertise, point blank shot, RS, precision, quickdraw, IPS, IC thrown, OC, great dexterity, holy strike, blinding speed, doubleshot
12 halfling 2 dex, dex to damage, saves
35 harper 4 dex, versatile adept (24 MP/RP), half int to damage, free improved deception
6 ninja spy extra shuriken
15 acrobat shadow dodge 6 dex, 1 dex
12 ap left to work with (not sure on the harper math)

Vs Tinkerhell you lose 10% doubleshot, no mercy, ruin arms, casting tensers, arti buffs
Vs Tinkerhell you gain +1 crit mult, 24 RP, half int to damage, improved deception, 2 dex

Actually, this has been discussed on these forums and elsewhere for a month now since they announced Holy Sword changes.

The best new Thrower build will be Pal14/3Monk/3x (I'm partial to Rogue, though other splits could work. It would be hard to lose the Dex from Shadow Dodge since you'll be scrolling Tensers and often in DC instead of Shiradi).

You could also Do 14Pal/6Monk but I think that's a weak split, especially running DC, there's too much Doublestrike available then.

I don't recommend staying pure Monk, though I never have. In DC you lose 5-6 Dex from Shiradi, and 4 From Tensers, and 6 from Shadow Dodge. That's 15-16 Dexterity, which is equivalent to about 30 Doubleshot and +7-8 Base damage. Nothing from Pure monk can make up for that kind of loss when you get Holy Sword to compare versus Ninjaspy Capstone.

Also, Light Damage is proccing on Lama on Shurikens, as it should. Which is a very nice bump in damage.


PS: If they ever fix SWB stance with ranged for the extra Multi, there are a number of Bard Shuriken builds that will be excellent. But they haven't fixed it yet so Pally builds will be the best. I have not added pally builds to my DPS spreadsheets yet because the whole light damage thing and melee power thing isn't settled yet but I will when it is and report back in a separate thread.

[Throwdown]

Ok here is another build... I just converted jakeelala's Tinkerhell into a paladin.

halfling dex with int secondary paladin 14/rogue 3/monk 3
possible feat list: shuriken expertise, point blank shot, RS, precision, quickdraw, IPS, IC thrown, OC, great dexterity, holy strike, blinding speed, doubleshot
12 halfling 2 dex, dex to damage, saves
35 harper 4 dex, versatile adept (24 MP/RP), half int to damage, free improved deception
6 ninja spy extra shuriken
15 acrobat shadow dodge 6 dex, 1 dex
12 ap left to work with (not sure on the harper math)

Vs Tinkerhell you lose 10% doubleshot, no mercy, ruin arms, casting tensers, arti buffs
Vs Tinkerhell you gain +1 crit mult, 24 RP, half int to damage, improved deception, 2 dex

Also you shouldn't be conflating the difference between a build as it exists today and the addition of both Harper tree AND the addition of 14 Paladin levels.

These are 2 completely different builds. You should instead be comparing:

Paladin Thrower with and without Harper
Tinkerhell with and without Harper.

[SirValentine]

Vague future suggestion:

Create a Gatekeepers enhancement tree, available to any character (VIP or "earned" it) but locking out the Harper tree. It includes Wisdom and some wisdom-based abilities, Druid-like stuff, anti-Outsider anti-Aberration anti-Elemental features, dismissal SLA, much Abjuration DC, and immunities including a Deathward spell and "Anchoring" (banishment-ward).

I think the concept is neat. I had suggested something similar as a PrE way, way back, when Exorcist of the Silver Flame was supposed to become one of the Cleric PrEs.

However, Dismissal/Banishment stuff is pretty useless in tougher content, simply due to the prevailing mob hit-dice bloat, since instead of a normal save, it's a special caster-level-versus-mob-hit-dice check. The discrepancy between player's caster level and mob hit dice just keeps getting wider and wider, so things using those types of mechanics tend towards uselessness. Same idea with the Dispel line. And Turn Undead, for that matter.

Also, recently, instead of fixing a years-long problem with the DC used by Dismissal/Banishment, devs recently slightly nerfed the spells by declaring the bug to be WAI.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

[*]Know the Angles: Antirequisite: Divine Might. You gain an Insight bonus to damage and the DC of tactical feats equal to ½ your Intelligence Modifier for 30/60/120 seconds. (Activation Cost: 21/18/15 spell points. Cooldown: 20 seconds)

would like to reiterate that while i understand why it would be phrased and implemented this way, know the angles has to be something other than an insight bonus or you might as well not bother coding the tactics bonus.

[Throwdown]

would like to reiterate that while i understand why it would be phrased and implemented this way, know the angles has to be something other than an insight bonus or you might as well not bother coding the tactics bonus.

Why? It doesn't need to stack. It's an alternative to other sources.

[dunklezhan]

My feedback is pretty simple:

1. When you were doing the enhancement pass, turbine resisted a general tree like it was the worst idea evah. What changed?
2. Please don't call it a harper tree unless you can't get it till you have at least done a harper quest. This game starts in eberron and you don't meet harpers officially enough for them to offer you training until you're almost done with heroic levels. And then only if you have the expansions which in your wisdom you chose to break your VIP promise over so it is by no means guaranteed that a VIP will actually get to do those harper quests anyway.
3. If its a generic "spy" tree don't name it after one organisation! "Versatile Agent" or something would do.
4. Regardless, please tie it to a low level of favour. You can sell it and give it to VIPs, or throw it in with a pack or whatever - but don't let people use it on a character till that character has earned it, because you have linked it to espionage organisations - therefore at least some kind of sop to the idea of in character reward and progression would make it more DND like.
5. Don't rip people off over the price when it goes in the store. Your whole classes or races all i think cost over 500tp. A single tree ought to be no more than 150tp. Ideally 100tp. And no, the fact that any of your classes can use it should not justify a higher price.

Balance wise.... Meh. All the key mechanics in this game these days run off non transparent forumlas that you can't easily predict the results of from a player perspective. I long ago lost the ability to follow what the hell you're up to. Good grief i looted a ml9 resistance 6 random lootgen item the other day. In what realm of DND is THAT balanced?

[Uska]

My feedback is pretty simple:

1. When you were doing the enhancement pass, turbine resisted a general tree like it was the worst idea evah. What changed?
2. Please don't call it a harper tree unless you can't get it till you have at least done a harper quest. This game starts in eberron and you don't meet harpers officially enough for them to offer you training until you're almost done with heroic levels. And then only if you have the expansions which in your wisdom you chose to break your VIP promise over so it is by no means guaranteed that a VIP will actually get to do those harper quests anyway.
3. If its a generic "spy" tree don't name it after one organisation! "Versatile Agent" or something would do.
4. Regardless, please tie it to a low level of favour. You can sell it and give it to VIPs, or throw it in with a pack or whatever - but don't let people use it on a character till that character has earned it, because you have linked it to espionage organisations - therefore at least some kind of sop to the idea of in character reward and progression would make it more DND like.
5. Don't rip people off over the price when it goes in the store. Your whole classes or races all i think cost over 500tp. A single tree ought to be no more than 150tp. Ideally 100tp. And no, the fact that any of your classes can use it should not justify a higher price.

Balance wise.... Meh. All the key mechanics in this game these days run off non transparent forumlas that you can't easily predict the results of from a player perspective. I long ago lost the ability to follow what the hell you're up to. Good grief i looted a ml9 resistance 6 random lootgen item the other day. In what realm of DND is THAT balanced?

Not bad ideas I agree its called Harper it should be tied to the realms or renamed

[the_one_dwarfforged]

Why? It doesn't need to stack. It's an alternative to other sources.

http://ddowiki.com/page/Combat_Mastery

if it doesnt stack then its not a real alternative to divine might.

[Throwdown]

http://ddowiki.com/page/Combat_Mastery

if it doesnt stack then its not a real alternative to divine might.

Why? Does Divine Might give mod to tactics? Or you mean for an Int based Tactics build? I'm not really following your logic.

I do guess it's a bit odd it doesn't stack with items.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

Why? Does Divine Might give mod to tactics? Or you mean for an Int based Tactics build? I'm not really following your logic.

I do guess it's a bit odd it doesn't stack with items.

divine might is cha mod to str as an insight bonus. that means it will not stack with +insight str gear, but will stack with +insight dc gear because the dc is getting buffed indirectly, because of the str buff.

know the angles is clearly intended to provide exactly the same bonus except based on int and benefit non str builds equally as much as str builds. the issue though with making it buff dmg and dcs directly instead of just having a multi selector is that its an insight bonus. which means it stacks with +insight stat gear, but not +insight dc gear. that means if i actually want to max my stunning blow dc i still have to go with divine might because it sacrifices less atm (+3/4 insightful str items vs +5 dc items, which are clearly better).

so yes divine might does give a mod to tactics.

this is probably just an oversight due to them trying to keep it as simple as possible while not giving the benefit to only one stat. needs a different type bonus, something OTHER than insightful, profane, exceptional, alchemical, feat, or enhancement (did i miss any?). itd be fair to change divine might to that type bonus as well, and itd be a slight, nice, and non game breaking buff to dc melees who currently dont benefit from having insightful str gear.

[dunklezhan]

Not bad ideas I agree its called Harper it should be tied to the realms or renamed

I forgot my other idea, which is way out there and probably impossible (but would fit with the 'Generic Secret Agent' theme): when there are ranked abilities in the tree, make them also favour bound - to different organisations. Let's say we tie to Phiarlan, Argonessen (they're prefer a sneak-around to all this stand up fighting, seem like a good fit), and Harper, and you can't access them until you have x favour (or the first level of recognition, or whatever) with each faction.

So you could get your first rank in a particular ability (House P abilities) sometime levels 5-10, but you couldn't get rank 2 of that same ability until sometime level 10-16 (Argo favour) and then your third rank 16+ (Harper).


That way you possibly COULD make the tree just available to all, but rather than charge for the tree, folks would pay indirectly - if they wanted access to multi-rank abilities, or wanted them at full rank, they'd have to buy the pack that grants the favour and run the relevant quests.

That would surely be good for everyone - Turbine sell more packs, people are encouraged to buy content if they haven't already, and anything with just one rank in anyone could get, including F2P players, and you don't need to favour lock the whole tree, and all those factions have heroic and epic quests so there's no pressure to do it as you level - it also spreads out the amount of 'general' boosting you can possibly get at various content levels. You're also not directly selling 'power' in the same way that buying the packs does not directly sell the loot in those packs.

You could then do other generic trees theme- and favour-tied to 'famlies' of factions. Training as a faction reward system is entirely appropriate, to my mind.

But it's a bit out there, as I said.

[Ayseifn]

divine might is cha mod to str as an insight bonus. that means it will not stack with +insight str gear, but will stack with +insight dc gear because the dc is getting buffed indirectly, because of the str buff.

know the angles is clearly intended to provide exactly the same bonus except based on int and benefit non str builds equally as much as str builds. the issue though with making it buff dmg and dcs directly instead of just having a multi selector is that its an insight bonus. which means it stacks with +insight stat gear, but not +insight dc gear. that means if i actually want to max my stunning blow dc i still have to go with divine might because it sacrifices less atm (+3/4 insightful str items vs +5 dc items, which are clearly better).

so yes divine might does give a mod to tactics.

this is probably just an oversight due to them trying to keep it as simple as possible while not giving the benefit to only one stat. needs a different type bonus, something OTHER than insightful, profane, exceptional, alchemical, feat, or enhancement (did i miss any?). itd be fair to change divine might to that type bonus as well, and itd be a slight, nice, and non game breaking buff to dc melees who currently dont benefit from having insightful str gear.

I think it's fine as is since Harper allows int for to-hit and damage with any weapon(except wraps?). Insightful damage is also better than DMs insightful strength for a lot of builds too.

So 4 less tactics DC for str based toons vs DM, but now you have the option to int, dex, cha, wis or even con based and still get a buff to tactics and damage, giving it the same bonus type as DM would just make DM worse.

[Oxarhamar]

Haste 22% combined with LD 30% haste boost and Tensers for full bab doesn't do it, so I'm gona say sad but not under normal circumstances. Adrenaline only hits more than once on repeaters on doubleshots as far as I've been able to test. If it did work, then there wouldn't be an army of monkchers in game and artificers wouldn't be considered weak.

All your shots have to be simultaneous, like those from 10k stars, doubleshot, or manyshot. Hence the monkcher army.

Forgot

Ranged alacrity & Endless Fussilage

It's a real PITA to get it all timed together but, it absolutely works still doesn't make it fun enough to make Artificers into Monkcher

[the_one_dwarfforged]

I think it's fine as is since Harper allows int for to-hit and damage with any weapon(except wraps?). Insightful damage is also better than DMs insightful strength for a lot of builds too.

So 4 less tactics DC for str based toons vs DM, but now you have the option to int, dex, cha, wis or even con based and still get a buff to tactics and damage, giving it the same bonus type as DM would just make DM worse.

kta will be granting the same bonus type as dm if they dont change it, just it wont be giving it to the stat but directly to things affected by stats to share the love. also if i care about str based tactics, then i dont care about dex to hit/dmg option. tactics are still str based. im assuming you mean if they both stacked with combat mastery gear that that would make dm worse? i dont think so.

dm vs kta:

dm:
pros:
-applies charisma mod (apparently there is more charisma to be gotten than int, i wouldnt know).
-can be taken from pally which has 2 benefits. 1) divine grace. 2) turn based usage can be a good thing depending on how you feel about it.
-pretty cheap to acquire from warpriest.
-dm is always f2p.

cons:
-requires certain class levels.
-requires a twist if acquired from pally.

kta (assuming it applied int mod to str as insight bonus, or applied half int mod directly to dmg and dcs as a "harper" bonus):
pros:
-useful for more stats than just str.
-doesnt require certain class levels, or twists. usable on single class builds.
-would help wis based tactics drastically compared to str builds, since there is currently no way to add a second stat to your stunning fist dc (imagine that i want something which is good for monks...).

cons:
-int based (apparently int is not as plentiful as charisma. this may or may not make a significant difference).
-requires p2p enhancement tree that may not have a favor option until u24 or later, or ever.


so that list may be incomplete but im not seeing any meaningful differences that make one better than the other if they were both changed to stack with all sources in game that provide bonuses to str/wis based tactics. if it were changed to benefit such builds, then nothing changes regarding its power for builds that would use this to add half int mod to dmg.

[Oxarhamar]

My feedback is pretty simple:

1. When you were doing the enhancement pass, turbine resisted a general tree like it was the worst idea evah. What changed?
2. Please don't call it a harper tree unless you can't get it till you have at least done a harper quest. This game starts in eberron and you don't meet harpers officially enough for them to offer you training until you're almost done with heroic levels. And then only if you have the expansions which in your wisdom you chose to break your VIP promise over so it is by no means guaranteed that a VIP will actually get to do those harper quests anyway.
3. If its a generic "spy" tree don't name it after one organisation! "Versatile Agent" or something would do.
4. Regardless, please tie it to a low level of favour. You can sell it and give it to VIPs, or throw it in with a pack or whatever - but don't let people use it on a character till that character has earned it, because you have linked it to espionage organisations - therefore at least some kind of sop to the idea of in character reward and progression would make it more DND like.
5. Don't rip people off over the price when it goes in the store. Your whole classes or races all i think cost over 500tp. A single tree ought to be no more than 150tp. Ideally 100tp. And no, the fact that any of your classes can use it should not justify a higher price.

Balance wise.... Meh. All the key mechanics in this game these days run off non transparent forumlas that you can't easily predict the results of from a player perspective. I long ago lost the ability to follow what the hell you're up to. Good grief i looted a ml9 resistance 6 random lootgen item the other day. In what realm of DND is THAT balanced?

@100-150TP why even sell it at all?

That's a pretty much a freebie with TP favor.

We don't know the pricing yet but, for a one time purchase to have Harper Tree available to every Charicter on every server that's not enough.

[dunklezhan]

@100-150TP why even sell it at all?

That's a pretty much a freebie with TP favor.

We don't know the pricing yet but, for a one time purchase to have Harper Tree available to every Charicter on every server that's not enough.

Because that way it is in reach for all players, preventing too much power discrepancy between those who can afford it and those who cannot. At that price range, it becomes the sort of microtransaction that F2P depends on - if you don't even have to think about spending the TP... then you're more likely to spend the TP. When it concerns what some seem to think is quite a lot of power, better for more folk to have it than fewer, even given the need to limit powercreep.

Note I'm not actually sure I'm in favour of the tree anyway, at this juncture. I think I'd rather see the class trees finished off than this. But it doesn't sound like that's on the cards and this will be coming regardless. Given that, I'd rather if it's intended to be available to all characters regardless of class, TR status etc. that it therefore also is as close as possible to being to available to all players too.

And yes. 150Tp is more or less a freebie. That was what I intended in my price range. Its almost a freebie. Ergo, people will easily be able to incorporate it into their builds, even free players if they work just a little bit (but also why I suggested in another thread that regardless of whether you buy it or earn it for your account, it shouldn't be unlocked for use until each character has x favour with a relevant faction).

[maddong]

If you go cha based you either benefit with cha to damage with a limited weapon set or divine might, not both.

I dont think that making int stack with int for a greater twf benefit than other styles and fury shot is a good idea. Str builds will still be useful due to extra bonuses and cha builds will still be useful for paladins and bards but instead of helping dex builds this will invalidate dex builds (except shuriken).

Again by going int based you will get skills, energy burst dc, the highest single stat damage mod, reflex save, to hit. You make dex builds more of a newb trap instead of less of 1 (yes except for stacking shuriken fantasy football).

[redoubt]

Because that way it is in reach for all players, preventing too much power discrepancy between those who can afford it and those who cannot. At that price range, it becomes the sort of microtransaction that F2P depends on - if you don't even have to think about spending the TP... then you're more likely to spend the TP. When it concerns what some seem to think is quite a lot of power, better for more folk to have it than fewer, even given the need to limit powercreep.

Note I'm not actually sure I'm in favour of the tree anyway, at this juncture. I think I'd rather see the class trees finished off than this. But it doesn't sound like that's on the cards and this will be coming regardless. Given that, I'd rather if it's intended to be available to all characters regardless of class, TR status etc. that it therefore also is as close as possible to being to available to all players too.

And yes. 150Tp is more or less a freebie. That was what I intended in my price range. Its almost a freebie. Ergo, people will easily be able to incorporate it into their builds, even free players if they work just a little bit (but also why I suggested in another thread that regardless of whether you buy it or earn it for your account, it shouldn't be unlocked for use until each character has x favour with a relevant faction).

3000 favor @ 25tp per 100 is 750tp.
Add at 25 and 50 (I think) and you get 800tp just getting to 3000 favor.
That is one life and its not getting everything you can get.

Please know I'm not arguing either way about the price. Just trying to point out what can be earned easily.

As I play, I run most everything on elite up to 16, I skip most of 17-19 and then on EH 20 to 28. There are a handful of other quests the end up getting missed along the way and, while I've not actually tracked it, my tp account seems to go up by over 1000 per life.

[redoubt]

If you go cha based you either benefit with cha to damage with a limited weapon set or divine might, not both.

I dont think that making int stack with int for a greater twf benefit than other styles and fury shot is a good idea. Str builds will still be useful due to extra bonuses and cha builds will still be useful for paladins and bards but instead of helping dex builds this will invalidate dex builds (except shuriken).

Again by going int based you will get skills, energy burst dc, the highest single stat damage mod, reflex save, to hit. You make dex builds more of a newb trap instead of less of 1 (yes except for stacking shuriken fantasy football).

Energy Burst.

That's and interesting thought. If you are melee, would it be worth giving up "sense weakness"?

[dunklezhan]

3000 favor @ 25tp per 100 is 750tp.
Add at 25 and 50 (I think) and you get 800tp just getting to 3000 favor.
That is one life and its not getting everything you can get.

Please know I'm not arguing either way about the price. Just trying to point out what can be earned easily.

As I play, I run most everything on elite up to 16, I skip most of 17-19 and then on EH 20 to 28. There are a handful of other quests the end up getting missed along the way and, while I've not actually tracked it, my tp account seems to go up by over 1000 per life.

Yeah I don't intend to argue about the price. It's a moot, predecided point I suspect, and Devs don't deal with that bit of the game anyway.