Harper tree feedback

[Oxarhamar]

There are other things to consider as well.

mechanic gives raw damage to repeaters, but you lose deadly.

Ignoring Runearms shots and offensive casting does 2 things for a build like this.

1st you need different gear since you only need spell power for healing. This lets you focus everything into ranged damage and survivabiliy instead of ranged, survivability, & offensive casting

2nd only using Spell points for buffs and self healing they go a long way making it less dependant on shrine.

[moo_cow]

To people asking why the Attribute enhancements don't include Charisma; there was too much Charisma stacking available in the game, so we had to cut some back. It felt better to keep it in the cores.

Sev~

Would be nice to get an answer for this. Int and Charisma stacking is the exact same in the exact same places, am I missing something? Where is int at a disadvantage when only talking about the stat?

[maddong]

I'm thinking pal 14/ran 6 will be a good use of the tree.

Int based bladeforged (for self healing) in fury.
Tier 5 aa for slayer arrow, prob tier 4 Harper for 18 mp/rp and +4 int.
Vs a current monkcher your furyshot gains 33% damage from going from x3 to x4 auto crits.
Vs a current monkcher you go from using 1x secondary stat for damage mod to 1.5x primary stat (dump wis and get your dex up for IPS thru a +5 or 6 tome).
A current monkcher might not be able to fit the 18 rp in from Harper.
When manyshot is off timer you switch to sub par twf for 1.5x stat main hand and 1x stat off hand with holy sword crit range and all the new melee power.
You take advantage of the dr 30/60 docent.
You can use energy burst since you are int based.
You only use your adrenalines/unbridled fury with slaying arrow manyshot.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Some design notes:

When we were looking at this tree, one of the goals was to create a tree that bolstered a number of different (and less effective) builds. The fact that this tree can be used to good effect by Artificers, Assassins, Wizards, and maybe even Int based Rangers speaks to the advantage of a tree that is not locked to one class. We can focus on many play styles at once. That is not something we can do with purely class trees, especially since some of the classes that could use a boost already have three trees.

Sev~

Yeah, I am now considering an Int based Ranger...lol

But.. other than just to use this tree, I cannot see a real reason to be an Int based Ranger.
Rangers already get more skill points than they really need.

Does look like I am going to be LRing my Rgr11/Wiz9 build idea.... (again)
(also thinking about LRing my Rgr11/Rog9 and Rgr11/Art9 to be Int based.....)

[Oxarhamar]

I'm thinking pal 14/ran 6 will be a good use of the tree.

Int based bladeforged (for self healing) in fury.
Tier 5 aa for slayer arrow, prob tier 4 Harper for 18 mp/rp and +4 int.
Vs a current monkcher your furyshot gains 33% damage from going from x3 to x4 auto crits.
Vs a current monkcher you go from using 1x secondary stat for damage mod to 1.5x primary stat (dump wis and get your dex up for IPS thru a +5 or 6 tome).
A current monkcher might not be able to fit the 18 rp in from Harper.
When manyshot is off timer you switch to sub par twf for 1.5x stat main hand and 1x stat off hand with holy sword crit range and all the new melee power.
You take advantage of the dr 30/60 docent.
You can use energy burst since you are int based.
You only use your adrenalines/unbridled fury with slaying arrow manyshot.

Had something similar in mind.

[Oxarhamar]

Would be nice to get an answer for this. Int and Charisma stacking is the exact same in the exact same places, am I missing something? Where is int at a disadvantage when only talking about the stat?

Nothing stacks up like strength and strength keeps getting boosts even if it's little bumps every so often.

There is no equivalent of rages, Tensors.

Give us some of that love to other stats.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I honestly don't see where I have any points to spare for this tree on my assassin build, but I will play around with it to be sure.

That's what I think too.

Some people act like this is OP for certain builds, but I think the reality will be that they do not have enough AP to really make use of it with other trees.

I guess you can just take the stuff that raises your DPS or spell DCs etc. But you will still have to give up something.

[Severlin]

~ When we were playing with the tree with extra Charisma in the higher up parts of the tree it gave too much Charisma to Bard builds who just got a big boost in that department, and played a little too well with Paladin. We needed to cut out some Charisma.

~ Versatile Adept is probably too good and should probably be 1/2/3 instead of 2/4/6. That's my bad, as I wrote up the tree early in the Melee Power cycle and didn't adjust. We will be looking for player feedback on these specific enhancements.

~ Yes, Strength does stack higher than other attributes because of, in part, Tenser's and Rage. Strength as a stat is also gives no additional build benefit outside of damage and some tactical DCs. While we did want to give an alternate to Divine Might for other attributes, I doubt we'd want to mimic every Strength boost in the game for all other stats because that would risk making Strength builds obsolete.

Sev~

[vengfarga]

Some design notes:

When we were looking at this tree, one of the goals was to create a tree that bolstered a number of different (and less effective) builds. The fact that this tree can be used to good effect by Artificers, Assassins, Wizards, and maybe even Int based Rangers speaks to the advantage of a tree that is not locked to one class. We can focus on many play styles at once. That is not something we can do with purely class trees, especially since some of the classes that could use a boost already have three trees.

Sev~

Nice! Even the Devs seem to have forgotten that us Rogue Mechs exist - can we get a passive +50 to sneak skills on account of how we 'were never here'???

[moo_cow]

~ When we were playing with the tree with extra Charisma in the higher up parts of the tree it gave too much Charisma to Bard builds who just got a big boost in that department, and played a little too well with Paladin. We needed to cut out some Charisma.

Sev~

**** pally and bards ruining my sorcs fun.

[Scrabbler]

I doubt we'd want to mimic every Strength boost in the game for all other stats because that would risk making Strength builds obsolete.

To further protect the role of Strength combat, I suggest limiting Harper Strategic Combat to not apply to two-handed weapons, which is in accordance with the existing character options that apply Intelligence to melee.

[Severlin]

To further protect the role of Strength combat, I suggest limiting Harper Strategic Combat to not apply to two-handed weapons, which is in accordance with the existing character options that apply Intelligence to melee.

I'll bring this up with the team. Not only does it protect strength builds, but I can see how a two handed build would be outside the flavor of the tree. (We might not have time to add it, though.)

Sev~

[Oxarhamar]

~ When we were playing with the tree with extra Charisma in the higher up parts of the tree it gave too much Charisma to Bard builds who just got a big boost in that department, and played a little too well with Paladin. We needed to cut out some Charisma.

~ Versatile Adept is probably too good and should probably be 1/2/3 instead of 2/4/6. That's my bad, as I wrote up the tree early in the Melee Power cycle and didn't adjust. We will be looking for player feedback on these specific enhancements.

~ Yes, Strength does stack higher than other attributes because of, in part, Tenser's and Rage. Strength as a stat is also gives no additional build benefit outside of damage and some tactical DCs. While we did want to give an alternate to Divine Might for other attributes, I doubt we'd want to mimic every Strength boost in the game for all other stats because that would risk making Strength builds obsolete.

Sev~

There is logic it it at least.

What I would like though if we can not get Stat boosts like Rage, Tensors, could we get some way those type of buffs could increase at least raw damage.

tensor's for example:
Causes the caster to become a virtual fighting machine becoming stronger, tougher, faster, and more skilled in combat. You gain a +4 alchemical bonus to Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution, a +6 alchemical bonus to Armor Class, and proficiency with all simple and martial weapons. Your base attack bonus equals your character level. Your spellcasting ability is reduced, resulting in a -2 penalty to all spell DCs, -2 to your rolls to bypass enemy Spell Resistance, and doubling the cooldown of your spells.

This boosts Stats and damage for builds using STR CON DEX would it be game breaking to let it add damage bonus for other stat types without adding to the stats or giving more to Strength builds?

I know this is a reach but' this is the kind of stuff we have to compete with vs. These builds damage wise.

[maddong]

Ok here is another build... I just converted jakeelala's Tinkerhell into a paladin.

halfling dex with int secondary paladin 14/rogue 3/monk 3
possible feat list: shuriken expertise, point blank shot, RS, precision, quickdraw, IPS, IC thrown, OC, great dexterity, holy strike, blinding speed, doubleshot
12 halfling 2 dex, dex to damage, saves
35 harper 4 dex, versatile adept (24 MP/RP), half int to damage, free improved deception
6 ninja spy extra shuriken
15 acrobat shadow dodge 6 dex, 1 dex
12 ap left to work with (not sure on the harper math)

Vs Tinkerhell you lose 10% doubleshot, no mercy, ruin arms, casting tensers, arti buffs
Vs Tinkerhell you gain +1 crit mult, 24 RP, half int to damage, improved deception, 2 dex

[lyrecono]

@~sev

i have posted this elsewhere too but does this conversion from an iconic to a prestige tree mean that there is a battle rager tree coming too?
When the dev diary on iconics came out there was talk about more iconics coming, including a (drow) 2wf ranger, a (dwarven) battlerager barb, the harper(that got converted into this) and a fourth i don't remember.

[Bernaise]

I'll bring this up with the team. Not only does it protect strength builds, but I can see how a two handed build would be outside the flavor of the tree. (We might not have time to add it, though.)

Sev~

I was thinking the same thing, but would really hate to have Bastard Sword penalized by this as this could potentially be a great flavor tree for Melee Artificers

[Bernaise]

As has been mentioned by some others, the Harper tree really brings it more to pure builds than to AP starved multi-class characters

I don't see why this can't be like the Drow. It could be earned via Favor which unlocks the tree on that server for all characters - or - purchased in the DDO Store which unlocks Harpers immediately for you on all servers.

Also fine with this primarily adding some vanilla flavor to (mostly) INT based builds. Some changes DO need to happen, and there has been some really good feedback in this thread so far. I'd also agree with concerns about 2-handed weapons and Strategic Combat[SC], however let's not forget that Artificer's do have some ability for Bastard Sword which I'd hate to lose usage with SC. Also, if all your points are in INT/CON, you lose out on the THF/TWF Feats.

If Harpers do well in sales/reception, of course it helps pave the way for future vanilla trees that may help other types of players. Don't be like Varuca Salt, that never ends well.

As for my take on the Harper Tree, Not sure that it needs to have a 5th Tier. Would rather see 4-Tiers and a good 5th Core. Much like the racial trees with the addition of a Capstone. This would make sense if the intent was that this is a support tree and not a real class tree. Many of the items here could easily be consolidated and tightened up.

Heroic Companion; I always liked this in concept, it might be more appealing if it also shifted a % of aggro from the caster to the recipient.

Energy Resistance: Should be brought in line with the ER from other Trees: 2/4/6


** I've attached a document showing how The Harper Tree could become with only 4 Tiers + Capstone.

https://www.lucidchart.com/documents...e-f491fc78ff22

[Tilomere]

Nope just have to increase your rate of fire with alacrity & haste to get the bolts to fire fast enough that Adrenaline effects more than one.

Haste 22% combined with LD 30% haste boost and Tensers for full bab doesn't do it, so I'm gona say sad but not under normal circumstances. Adrenaline only hits more than once on repeaters on doubleshots as far as I've been able to test. If it did work, then there wouldn't be an army of monkchers in game and artificers wouldn't be considered weak.

All your shots have to be simultaneous, like those from 10k stars, doubleshot, or manyshot. Hence the monkcher army.

[redoubt]

Yeah, I am now considering an Int based Ranger...lol

But.. other than just to use this tree, I cannot see a real reason to be an Int based Ranger.
Rangers already get more skill points than they really need.

Does look like I am going to be LRing my Rgr11/Wiz9 build idea.... (again)
(also thinking about LRing my Rgr11/Rog9 and Rgr11/Art9 to be Int based.....)

An old favorite of mine would work:

18 ranger/1 rogue/1 monk (or fighter).

Go full tilt INT build instead of DEX (16 dex +5 tome for Combat archery)
You will still get Overwhelming crit under the new system by taking imp-crit
You can have full trap skills, UMD, heal and probably social skills also
You will have INT to hit and damage with bows and weapons. This is better than live. DEX to damage is only available on bows to the elf class.
Replace weapon finesse with insightful reflexes.
Evasion - check
manyshot - check
max'd stat to damage - check
uber extra stat bonus to damage - check
self healing - check
trap skills - check

This is an easy, do everything well build.

[redoubt]

Played with the harper tree on lama.

Built up my last assassin build to 20 last night. Shadar-Kai pure rogue.
18 INT, 16 Dex, 16 con (didn't do the TRs, but it will leave a 36pt build with 4 more points.)
+1 dex tome gets all TWF feats.

On to the enhancements:
-What I gave up from live:
-- 2d6 sneak attack (shadar-kai)
-- bleed them out (assassin)
-- +1 Int (assassin)
-- -40% threat (TA)
-- +50% scroll power (plus AP tax to get there) (mechanic)

What I picked up in Harper (27ap spent)
-- +4 INT (gain of 3 compared to live)
-- INT to attack and damage
-- 18% melee (and ranged power)
-- +15hp