Harper tree feedback

[Throwdown]

i put myself in the shoes of my barbs, fighter and tempest ranger while looking at the tree. there are a few useful enhancements for my barbs and fighter, but only my ranger could see some benefits from the tree. i cant see my barbs and fighter actually taking AP from the other trees they have invested in and putting it into the Harper tree. if i am somehow able to get rid of 201 error, i would figure this out better on Lam but probably have to wait until live otherwise. if the intention is for a generalized tree, im not seeing it outside of blue bar builds.

You should probably follow someone elses build suggestions then.

Please tell me what youre using from other trees for the equivalent increase of 24% melee damage?

Its like im on crazy pills.

[FranOhmsford]

Adding new heroic action points would be a horrible change. Maybe they could go as far as a raid-loot tome that gives you a permanent +1 action point at level 21, but not beyond that.

Lol - ONE extra AP?

Whether it's overpowered would depend a lot on your class split. If you're a single class then maybe you can already get nearly every good enhancement already. But if you are double or triple class, those extra AP can convert into a lot more raw power. (That strong bias in favor of multiclass is one good reason not to add more AP sources)

I can think of a NUMBER of Pure Classes that can't get anywhere near everything they need currently!

Stalwarts and Sacred Defenders being the obvious and egregious examples!

Barbarians being another..Considering the Rage {a Barbarian's signature ability!} buffs being split between the three trees!

But even aside from the amount of "power", more AP is still a bad idea because of how it reduces choice in character design. Instead of having semi-hard choices about what to spend your points on, you get in the direction of picking up most everything that's halfway good. Honestly these complaints about "there are new good enhancements so I need more AP to get them all" are pretty hilarious. It is extremely intentional that the store sells more options than you can afford to buy.

Rubbish!

The above is an Elitist argument that has gained far too much traction on these forums! {I'm NOT calling you an Elitist here - I'm saying that the Argument you're using is Elitist!}

More AP means MORE choice NOT LESS!

The current Hard Choices you're talking about are in fact MANDATORY choices!

So NO choice at all!


Flavour is gained from having points to spend on Non-Mandatory feats and enhancements!


P.S. I try to take Augment Summoning on EVERY character I play - Sometimes that's not possible BUT I still try to take it if at all possible!
Give me Enhancement Buffs to it {that I can actually afford!} and I'll STILL continue to take the Feat But maybe on a few less characters!

[Tilomere]

I was wrong about the tree opening up ranged non-monk dps for other classes, at least in epics, until the ranged patch.

Repeaters don't multi-adrenaline hit like bows or thrown. So you need monk for 10k stars to combo with adrenaline usage. This patch will actually cement Monkcher and monk thrower dominance by nerfing LD blitz, which was the only good ED for repeaters or non-monk bow or thrower dps. Shiradi is good for CC, but non-monk ranged dps is toast this patch. Even on my SB thrower on live I had to modify it to a thrower/instakill build since the raw dps wasn't high enough. I modified it again to have free fighter feats to charge blitz.

Arti's and pure ranged rangers don't need help because repeaters are weak (they are incredibly strong levelers in heroics). They need help because they have little ED interaction, and even less now that blitz is being nerfed.

The best total crit multiplier for adrenaline I could get a non-monk to was x7 with my Pali/Ranger Harper. I mistakenly thought it was 21 total crit multiplier for all 3 repeater shots working with adrenaline. This was going to compare to a monk/ranger 10k star tossing 5-6 stars at x4 each with sniper shot for also ~21 total crit multiplier for adrenaline. But only the first shot of a repeater will adrenaline, so its 7 to 21, with monk winning in damage by 3x.

Harper tree can't possibly fix monk having triple the synergy with the only available ranged dps ED after this patch. But it will open up new builds for when the EDs get a ranged balance pass.

[Oxarhamar]

Even at Lvl 10 it takes more than 2 shots to kill Elite Trash at Level!

At level 15+ you're looking at more like 5 or 6 shots {15-18 bolts!} and a LOT of kiting!

Artis start falling off around Lvl 14 {Yes...IF you've maxed everything you can keep going for a few more levels but we're not talking JUST about multi-pastlife fully geared up characters here!}.

Yeah maybe for a first life no gear pure Artificer.

did you ignore the bits about multiclassing into other Ranged Trees for more DPS?



just stepped into a quest at lvl 17

LVL 15 Acid wit LVL 17 on Elite so @ lvl

Acid Scar Trogs go down in 2-3 shots most goes and a 4th shot if I didn't have luck with crits in those shots

Just looking at how much damage is pealed off of a Trog with full HP in one shot I am doing 200-800 damage on 3 bolts dependant on how many miss & Crits & if I get a double shot off or not, nevermind when Lit II Procs on top of that.

and I prefer not to kite most times I choose to engage a mob from a far enough distance that I can chew it down before it reaches me. Still if it does I'll stand and fire my last shot before it dies right in its face no problem.


Yes I am talking about a geared out multi life Artificer. Just as relevant to the discussion as a first life.

[Oxarhamar]

I was wrong about the tree opening up ranged non-monk dps for other classes, at least in epics.

Repeaters don't multi-adrenaline hit like bows or thrown. So you need monk for 10k stars to combo with adrenaline usage. This patch will actually cement Monkcher and monk thrower dominance by nerfing LD blitz, which was the only good ED for repeaters or non-monk bow or thrower dps. Shiradi is good for CC, but non-monk ranged dps is toast. Even on my SB thrower on live I had to modify it to a thrower/instakill build since the raw dps wasn't high enough. I modified it again to have free fighter feats to charge blitz, but after this patch, its back to monk.

Arti's and pure ranged rangers don't need help because repeaters are weak (they are incredibly strong levelers in heroics). They need help because they have little ED interaction, and even less now that blitz is being nerfed.

The best total crit multiplier for adrenaline I could get a non-monk to was x7 with my Pali/Ranger Harper. I mistakenly thought it was 21 total crit multiplier for all 3 repeater shots working with adrenaline. This was going to compare to a monk/ranger 10k star tossing 5-6 stars at x4 each with sniper shot for also ~21 total crit multiplier for adrenaline. But only the first shot of a repeater will adrenaline, so its 7 to 21, with monk winning in damage by 3x.

Harper tree can't possibly fix monk having triple the synergy with the only available ranged dps ED after this patch.

Also, thrower builds are not AP heavy, and will make full use of the harper tree. It takes a total of 17 ap for extra shurikens and sniper shot, rest is whatever you want.

again from the other thread its possible to get multi procs on Adrenaline just not 100%. and there is more gearing involved

IMO to make an EE viable Artificer you must heavily Multi class and focus solely on ranged damage. I prefer ED's that give sustainable DPS to the big spikey FoTW that offers nothing on non adrenaline shots.

[Full_Bleed]

So with EDs we get 12 Epic Universal Enhancement trees for 995 TP.

What are these universal heroic trees going to go for?

[Qhualor]

You should probably follow someone elses build suggestions then.

Please tell me what youre using from other trees for the equivalent increase of 24% melee damage?

Its like im on crazy pills.

point out the enhancements to me that is worth giving up points in FB, Ravager and Kensei trees, as well as human, dwarf and WF racial trees, as well as the points needed to be spent in the other prestiges to get enhancements that used to be part of the original prestiges. where are you getting i would gain 24% increase in melee damage without even knowing my builds?

[Indianwiz]

But even aside from the amount of "power", more AP is still a bad idea because of how it reduces choice in character design. Instead of having semi-hard choices about what to spend your points on, you get in the direction of picking up most everything that's halfway good. Honestly these complaints about "there are new good enhancements so I need more AP to get them all" are pretty hilarious. It is extremely intentional that the store sells more options than you can afford to buy.

1. Having more AP increases choices not the other way around.
2. We are not going to have semi-hard choices - it is going to be an impossible task. Have to drop a "main" tree completely to put points in this. (If I do not utilize even 30% of Harper tree, why should I buy?).
3. The complaints are not hilarious. They are valid concerns.
4. I call that store a "Fail" if you put up items way beyond people could buy.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

On second thought, might be a way to give a multi-classed toon a capstone..... Not sure about how powerful it is though.

I will definitely try it out.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Took a close look.

Now, I am too lazy to read everyone's posts.... so maybe people have already commented similarly.

Ok, seems this tree is most beneficial to a max Int char, who melees (or ranges) and casts spells. (Artificer, Wizard.. maybe Rogue.)

From a flavor point of view, it doesn't fit Artificer IMO. But from a practical point of view it could be very good for one.
I like Assassin better for Rogue.
There are many things I like from other trees for these classes, so it will be a difficult decision on which would be best.



Can anyone think of some interesting builds for this?
(I don't copy exact builds, but I would like to see some ideas.)

I really wish we could buy +20 Hearts so I could try out odd build ideas.

[Vellrad]

What's next?
2nd armor slot for vips?

[Tilomere]

again from the other thread its possible to get multi procs on Adrenaline just not 100%. and there is more gearing involved

IMO to make an EE viable Artificer you must heavily Multi class and focus solely on ranged damage. I prefer ED's that give sustainable DPS to the big spikey FoTW that offers nothing on non adrenaline shots.

You only get multi-procs on Adrenaline with a repeater when the first hit doubleshots.

I agree with you on how to make an EE viable Artificer, I just see that the multiclass requirement is to take 6 monk levels for 10k/Adrenaline synergy, and 6 ranger levels for sniper shot or arrow of slaying/adrenaline synergy now that sustainable DPS (Blitz) is being removed from the game.

[Oxarhamar]

You only get multi-procs on Adrenaline with a repeater when the first hit doubleshots.

I agree with you on how to make an EE viable Artificer, I just see that the multiclass requirement is to take 6 monk levels for 10k/Adrenaline synergy, and 6 ranger levels for sniper shot or arrow of slaying/adrenaline synergy now that sustainable DPS (Blitz) is being removed from the game.

Nope just have to increase your rate of fire with alacrity & haste to get the bolts to fire fast enough that Adrenaline effects more than one. Still I'll not use it it's silly to me.

Ewwww 6 monk & 6 Ranger neighther of those are any good IMO might as well just use a bow at that point. as well as Adrenalines big spike with absolutely dead DPS in between.

Can't go into monk stance with a crossbow even if your Kensei.



Give me Mechanic over that mess any day. Also Divine Crusaider.

When I refer to Artificer I'm talking pure Repeater Build no swapping for manyshot no firing Runearms or casting offensive spells definitely no 10k stars.

I aim for each bolt to do the highest damage possible sustainable DPS instead of the spikes I hate Fury Arti it's no fun at all I don't care about the big numbers as much as consistency in damage.


With Harper tree you could probably go more pure and go up Harper & BE for Ranged damage but, I still think Atri needs a 3rd tree & ED as well as revamp on the existing trees and Runearms need shots fixed.

[Irongutz2000]

Nope just have to increase your rate of fire with alacrity & haste to get the bolts to fire fast enough that Adrenaline effects more than one. Still I'll not use it it's silly to me.

Ewwww 6 monk & 6 Ranger neighther of those are any good IMO might as well just use a bow at that point. as well as Adrenalines big spike with absolutely dead DPS in between.

Can't go into monk stance with a crossbow even if your Kensei.



Give me Mechanic over that mess any day. Also Divine Crusaider.

When I refer to Artificer I'm talking pure Repeater Build no swapping for manyshot no firing Runearms or casting offensive spells definitely no 10k stars.

I aim for each bolt to do the highest damage possible sustainable DPS instead of the spikes I hate Fury Arti it's no fun at all I don't care about the big numbers as much as consistency in damage.


With Harper tree you could probably go more pure and go up Harper & BE for Ranged damage but, I still think Atri needs a 3rd tree & ED as well as revamp on the existing trees and Runearms need shots fixed.

I disagree I play a 20 artie in shadowdancer , using the rune arm full time and do quite a bit of damage. I use corruption of nature which is about 1000 - 2k+ damage every 6 seconds. I have full ranged feats as well and when stuff hits the fan I have a 61 evo dc for blade barrier and tac det , also energy burst twisted.

This tree will do nothing but help assasains and arties. Theres also some other low hanging fruit that's universail to , all in all not bad at all.

[Oxarhamar]

Took a close look.

Now, I am too lazy to read everyone's posts.... so maybe people have already commented similarly.

Ok, seems this tree is most beneficial to a max Int char, who melees (or ranges) and casts spells. (Artificer, Wizard.. maybe Rogue.)

From a flavor point of view, it doesn't fit Artificer IMO. But from a practical point of view it could be very good for one.
I like Assassin better for Rogue.
There are many things I like from other trees for these classes, so it will be a difficult decision on which would be best.



Can anyone think of some interesting builds for this?
(I don't copy exact builds, but I would like to see some ideas.)

I really wish we could buy +20 Hearts so I could try out odd build ideas.

Shadarkai 10 Rogue 4 Arti 6 Wizard

Go up Harper Tree & BE, other points in Racial tree sneak attack stuff. That shadow phase is a good escape from being pinned down by mobs too)

Max INT ( Harper tree will give 1.5 damage for INT score with that spell)

Insightful reflex

wizard for self buffs haste, displace & more SP pool


This build was really fun on live as mechanic/BE. A lot of sneak attack dice and very survivable in EE ( little bit gimped in early epic levels ) it would probably adapt just fine as a Harper BE.

[FranOhmsford]

Shadarkai 10 Rogue 4 Arti 6 Wizard

Why not 3 Arti / 7 Wizard?

[Oxarhamar]

I disagree I play a 20 artie in shadowdancer , using the rune arm full time and do quite a bit of damage. I use corruption of nature which is about 1000 - 2k+ damage every 6 seconds. I have full ranged feats as well and when stuff hits the fan I have a 61 evo dc for blade barrier and tac det , also energy burst twisted.

This tree will do nothing but help assasains and arties. Theres also some other low hanging fruit that's universail to , all in all not bad at all.

1000 damage every 6 seconds

Vs.

How many bolts can be fired in 6 seconds? ~10 volleys of 3 before Doubleshot based on a generous 100 volleys per minute.

So 30 bolts 1000/30= 33.3repeating

Only need 33 more damage per bolt before double shot to top Rune Arm output. Easily achieved when sneak attach numbers are in excess of 150.

Even at 2k damage the sneak attack is going to top Runearms.

[Oxarhamar]

Why not 3 Arti / 7 Wizard?

EF

There are those who say EF is gimp and I agree in epics it's 6 second duration and long animation are a bit dismal but, for a pure repeater nothing smokes an entire room full of angry mobs using IPS better.

[John_Rove]

Easily achieved when sneak attach numbers are in excess of 150.

Quick back of the napkin math says that for you to average 150 SA damage (with 48 melee power, 24 from levels, 24 from ED), you would need 29 SA dice.

10 Rogue would get you 5.
Shadar-Kai gets you 2.
Assassin an additional 4.
Shadowdancer (if that is your ED) an additional 6.

That gives you 17 SA Dics. Where are you getting the other 12d6 or am I forgetting a source of melee power?

[Oxarhamar]

Quick back of the napkin math says that for you to average 150 SA damage (with 48 melee power, 24 from levels, 24 from ED), you would need 29 SA dice.

10 Rogue would get you 5.
Shadar-Kai gets you 2.
Assassin an additional 4.
Shadowdancer (if that is your ED) an additional 6.

That gives you 17 SA Dics. Where are you getting the other 12d6 or am I forgetting a source of melee power?

I'm talking numbers I see on live so no Power running in Divine Crusaider.


But deception improved deception shadow dragon armor sneak attack

I'd just grab a screen of some of those numbers but, that life is long over with.