Okies I highlighted what turns me on in this Enhancement tree. I play pure arty. In my opinion at this time it's not worth taking this tree at the expense of my current arty trees. Of course my opinion may change in the future once it becomes live, since it's subject to change and perhaps more AP will get added.
From the Release Notes:
(NEW): Harper - A new enhancement tree is now available to all classes! The Harper tree is free to VIPs, and is also available for purchase in the DDO Store.The Harper tree is currently only available to VIP players on Lamannia. Additionally, the Action Point costs of abilities are not adjusted to what they will be when U23 is released.) The tree is as follows:
[*]Tier One (0 AP Required)
- Strategic Combat I: You can use your Intelligence modifier to hit with Melee and Missile weapons.
- Tier Two (5 AP Required)
- Strategic Combat II: You can use your Intelligence modifier for damage with Melee and Missile weapons.
- Tier Three (10 AP Required)
- Versatile Adept II: +2/+4/+6 to Melee Power, Ranged Power, and Universal Spell Power.
- Harper's Leadership: Your hirelings, summoned, and charmed creatures gain +2/3/4 to all ability scores.
- Tier Four (20 AP Required)
- Versatile Adept III: +2/+4/+6 to Melee Power, Ranged Power, and Universal Spell Power.
- Magic of Austerity: Like Eschew Materials, your spells no longer need common material components. This does not increase their Spell Point cost.
- Tier Five (30 AP Required)
- Versatile Adept IV: +2/+4/+6 to Melee Power, Ranged Power, and Universal Spell Power.
More importantly, this does not replace the need for a 3rd arty tree that will bring back some of the "Oh yeah!" feeling of playing an arty. Or own ED.
However, what would really turn me on and get me to go full on Fry with my cash would be:
- Eternal Wand of Bacon ~ an epic version of Ham (and an epic version of Ham Oil for WF/BF). Allot of room for creativity here.
- Harpy ~ A pet, summon, or something fun.
- More cosmetic armors (don't like looking like everyone else and would stimulate my role play).
- Another Monster Manual
Last edited by Livmo; 08-28-2014 at 08:05 PM.
How about adding +stat bonuses to wisdom? Everyone can use wisdom, to some degree.
I tried Know the Angles on my bard, said adds half int mod to damage and DC of tactical feats, i got no increase to the warchanters spinning ice and frozen fury it just added half the int mod to my strength
I would still like to see... Something that tests character versatility and player adaptability rather than character focus strength and quest knowledge.I play the quests for the content of the quests not just as an XP/min merry-go-round.Actual play experience is worth infinitely more than theorycrafting...
Comments in Blue. Now as to an explanation for why I think the Stat adjustments and Strategic Combat (needs a rename) need to include a charisma option: This is a fairly generic tree, adding charisma as a combat option opens the use of this tree up to Sorcerer Eldritch Knights, 2HF Warchanters (whom will not qualify for SB's Different Tack), Paladins, and possibly some cleric/fvs flavor builds. This tree is named HARPER and while I know and comprehend the PnP RP background behind this tree, it would be illogical to not offer charisma as an option especially as you offer charisma in the cores and alot of the Harper agents had BARD levels eg charisma is important to them.
Last edited by Aelonwy; 08-28-2014 at 08:25 PM. Reason: color not showing up well in quote
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OK, here's my initial impressions of Harper, and I say this with no hyperbole:
THIS IS A GIANT F--- YOU TO ARTIFICERS
Artis have almost zero offensive benefit in their own tree that works with Repeaters. You have to splash Ranger for Sniper Shot to even have a basic general-use clickable attack. Outside the cores, BE offers a whopping +2 to repeater damage, plus Fusillade, an attack that only adds 20% extra DPS, making it worse than the 30% Damage boost that appears two tiers below it.
Now enter Harper...INT bonuses, +damage vs evil, +enhancement on weapons, INT-to-hit, +Ranged Power, Divine Might for INT, special weapon imbues. Caster DC bonuses. Bonus SP, bonus HP, bonus Resists, bonus Skills. SUMMON bonuses!! THIS IS THE TREE ARTIS SHOULD HAVE HAD ALL ALONG!!
But then its a PAY TREE? I already PAID for Artificer!! I don't want to have to pay again for a new tree that's better suited to Arti than either of the trees Artis actually get!!
Maybe it'll be better once Artis get their turn at the "class pass" that's going around. But as of right now, I would spend points on everything in Harper before I touched BE.
Please consider making the Harper tree an unlockable favor reward that's achievable when it goes Live. That's the only way I wouldn't consider this a blatant slap in the face to Artis who already paid/earned access to a Premium class and would benefit from Harper more than any other class I can conceive.
To people asking why the Attribute enhancements don't include Charisma; there was too much Charisma stacking available in the game, so we had to cut some back. It felt better to keep it in the cores.
Sev~
Harper Feedback:
- If you need money and think this will get it, I can't begrudge that. Haven't seen your secret lists of what sells and what doesn't.
- Since the designers a year ago swore up and down that they couldn't add a tree available to all classes, this looks like a big insult.
- Adding a new enhancement tree when the others aren't finished yet looks bad. Adding it when the designers don't seem to have studied the existing trees looks worse. Adding a tree that wasn't obviously missing (such as another FVS or Druid option) makes it worse still.
- Truly the worst part is adding a new enhancement tree before fixing and finishing the old enhancements. If you had time to make something new, that time could've been spent fixing from a big list of blatant mistakes. (Or a head start on Rangepower, etc)
- Having a tree named after a Faerun-only organization looks weird when players all start on Eberron.
- A missed opportunity to make the Harper tree accessed by looting a Harper tome from a new adventure pack. (It would feel more like something the character had earned, etc)
- It looks bad to add Meleepower and Rangepower to a new tree, when there are probably existing trees where it made more sense and was more needed.
- The fact that Harper is a lot more powerful to just a couple of the existing classes makes it seem unfair, like you are singling out those specific classes for extra money to play their character styles.
- It looks funny to consider someone using Intelligence for hit and damage with a Greataxe, and is somewhat bad. Note that existing Intelligence-melee options (like Artificer) intentionally limited it to weapons that weren't as explicitly heavy.
- Three enhancements provide Intelligence melee effects. It has already looked weird that Bard had Intelligence melee while Wizard did not, but this is much stronger than the Bard effect. So this tree is extra-important for any melee builds off of an Intelligence class (Wizard, Artificer, and Rogue Assassinator).
- Remember that although Artificer had Intelligence to hit and damage already, it couldn't use both at once. That was an intentional limitation, to keep Intelligence melee well behind Strength melee. Now they can use both.
- As written, I can use Strategic Combat and Know The Angels at the same time to use 150% of Intelligence mod to damage with a one-handed weapon. Wow. And GSWF might add yet another 50% Int mod. (Note that Divine Might is considered a comparable effect, but it never allowed someone to double-up like that)
- The text of Know The Angels says it benefits tactical feats, which doesn't include Frozen Fury or other things that are not feats.
- If Throat Dagger is going to cost spellpoints and allow metamagic, it should decide to feel like a spell and get a name that doesn't sound like a martial trick. It's weird for a spell effect to do damage but not allow Maximize and Empower.
- Seeing Enchantment of Righteousness on there is somewhat insulting to Paladin players, who have gone over a year with their similar enhancement nonfunctioning.
- A lot of existing capstones in Intelligence-linked classes compare unfavorably to spending a few AP in Harper. For example, both Pale Master and Eldritch Knight capstones are weak in comparison. This may make it more attractive to splash Monk2 or Rogue2 on melee Wizards instead of going for a capstone.
- Probably Harper should've been patterned like a race tree instead of a class tree. Then no need to try creating a balanced, competitive tier5 and capstone.
- Weathered Traveller gives a bonus to energy resist. All enhancements that give an additive bonus to energy resist (or AC, or DR) should scale the benefit according to your level.
Last edited by Scrabbler; 08-28-2014 at 09:10 PM.
Yea...pretty much said it all in your post...
Looking at reworking my main Arty again and I couldn't really come up with a solid build using the existing 2 Arty trees that
reflected the old feel I had levelling the Artificer when it first came out.. ( solid, being subjective I know...the current
iteration of the Artificer just doesn't feel the same as when i first played the Arty pre-enhancement changes...)
This enhancement isn't out yet, but, on the whole, there seems to be a lot of statistically better enhancements in this than
the existing Art trees at the moment.
The tech needed was tricky for sure.
We've made good progress on this. With Vanguard we have filled out Paladin and Fighter. We also did a lot of work on Knight of the Chalice, and added changes to Sacred Defender and Stalwart Defender as well.[*]Adding a new enhancement tree when the others aren't finished yet looks bad. Adding it when the designers don't seem to have studied the existing trees looks worse. Adding a tree that wasn't obviously missing (such as another FVS or Druid option) makes it worse still.
We know Druid and Favored Soul need a third tree, and then Artificer. Sorcerer is a special case since Savant is essentially four trees already so that will come later.
We'd love to see feedback on specific trees when we focus on those classes. We are looking at doing a Barbarian pass next.[*]The fact that Harper is a lot more powerful to just a couple of the existing classes makes it seem unfair, like you are singling out those specific classes for extra money to play their character styles.
There are a lot more ways to stack Strength, and Rage doesn't stack with Intelligence. We believe Strength builds will still be great, and we are eager to get feedback on specific builds that use Harper Agent.[*]Remember that although Artificer had Intelligence to hit and damage already, it couldn't use both at once. That was an intentional limitation, to keep Intelligence melee well behind Strength melee. Now they can use both.
Harpers have always been very good at enchanting their weapons.[*]If Throat Dagger is going to cost spellpoints and allow metamagic, it should decide to feel like a spell and get a name that doesn't sound like a martial trick. It's weird for a spell effect to do damage but not allow Maximize and Empower.
We are also doing a Paladin pass for this update so if something is broken make sure you bug it![*]Seeing Enchantment of Righteousness on there is really insulting to Paladin players, who have gone over a year with their similar enhancement nonfunctioning.
Sev~
Throat Dagger says the anti-casting doesn't work on bosses.
- It'd be preferable for it to also give a moderate penalty to spellcasting (less caster level, DC, and/or spellpower) so that at least something can happen against those casters.
- Existing anti-casting debuffs like Ear Smash and Face Slap do work on bosses, so it's weird this one doesn't. But EEE finisher also doesn't work on bosses, so...? It'd be preferable if those effects (plus Beholder Plate and Runed Ogre Femur) had consistency there.
- It would make sense if some anti-casting debuffs didn't work on some kinds of creatures, like those that are immune to stunning (or whatever). Variety and verisimilitude (some monsters don't possess a Throat)
Last edited by Scrabbler; 08-28-2014 at 09:18 PM.
The Artificer trees have some good stuff in it. I would say that it's hard to compare them directly. Battle Engineer has a lot of rune arm boosts which don't have any comparison and it has some good passive bonuses. The Arcanotechnican has boosts to the Iron Defender, adds AoE attacks, and has great casting buffs. Harper gets no spell critical, for example.
I don't know that a straight comparison really works, but I'd love to see some feedback on some specific builds.
Sev~
So if this goes over well and people buy it can we expect you guys to start selling us trees now?
Dunno but seems way way slippery slope to me. Maybe you could add the leveling sigils back into the game while your at it?
Originally Posted by CordovanOriginally Posted by Jendrak
Runearms have been bad since levelcap was raised to 25 (when they got nerfed) Other power imbalances tended to fly right through the gate while runearms were left outside looking in. I'm not just talking numbers, I'm talking practical playstyle compared to alternatives. source: playing MANY arti builds since arti release. harper definitely helps but Im considering splashing other classes heavier into my arti at the cost of blade barrier even with 3 sorc pls, because runearm isnt an attractive point spend.
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I'm one of the friends from Insanity's post.
I've got some suggestions to this tree:
1) Take out the INT for To-Hit & Damage or move them to T4 as 1 enhancement for 4 AP (same price as unlocking Helf AA) so that you NEED to invest seriously into the tree to get that hilariously overpowered ability.
2) MAKE IT FAVOR UNLOCKABLE
Read my reasoning before criticizing:
1) INT for hit and damage is currently an either or buff for Artificers for a limited number of weapons (1-handed w/ rune arm or crossbow) requiring a 6 level investment, and only as a damage option for Mechanics for ranged/thrown. Putting the two abilities at T1 & T2 is a VERY small investment that introduces horrendous balancing issues. Specific issues include SOME of the following:
I) Wizard Eldritch Knight whilst fully specced for Intelligence with this enhancement will hit an easily achievable 60 (+25) INT bonus thus giving them DC's high enough to simultaneously CC trash mobs and beat their faces in with extreme prejudice.
II) Rogue Assassin can fully invest in INT for assassinate DC's while keeping their damage modifiers up at respectable levels.
III) Weapons that don't usually allow for a damage modifier (Crossbows mainly, as well as bows for character w/out bow strength) will be inadvertently altered by no longer requiring 6 Rogue or Arty splashes, which are currently a key point to those specific level splits.
Some alternative suggestions for this ability in my opinion include:
a) moving the ability to T4 to increase the required investment for the abilities in the harper tree.
b) tying the INT for hit & damage to either lv 12 core enhancements for Assassins or T5 Assassin enhancement, as well as lv 12 core multiselector for [CHA/INT] in Eldritch Knight or again as a T5 enhancement.
2) My reasoning for making the tree favor unlockable is the following. Currently, ALL heroic enhancements are either tied to a class or a race. Yes, there are races and classes that are payed features, and yes, they have their own enhancements, however they bring more than JUST an enhancement tree. Half-Orcs bring increased strength for melee builds, Half-Elves give an extra dilettante feat bringing versatility to many builds, and Monk makes the entire unarmed combat system possible. With this enhancement tree, you get a couple very powerful front loaded abilities, but no other benefits that an entire class or race would give. If the tree is attached to favor rewards, it would still be an incentive to purchase the requisite packs that give whatever favor it becomes tied to. This is useful in some of the following key cases:
I) Purple Dragon Knight ''Greater Oversword'' doesn't even give a reward... SOMETHING could be tied to it. This pack would encourage the sale of the entire MOTU expansion and the Shadowfell expansion, & Thunderholme
II) Harper ''Scout'' gives a CC breaking item, but for this tree which is called HARPER you think it could make sense to be tied to it? It encourages the sales of the following packs as well to unlock it: High Road, the Shadowfell expansion, Druid's Deep & Haunted Halls.
III) The Twelve ''Member of the Twelve'' also, does not give a reward other than a title which does nothing in this game that doesn't display titles... If something were tied to it that were useful, it would encourage sales for: The Vale of Twilight as well as the Reign of Madness packs.
I don't know your exact numbers for sales of those packs, but I would feel safe saying that not everyone has purchased all of the aforementioned content thus if a general enhancement tree is tied to them, players would need to purchase the packs or, at the very least, guest passes to access the quests to attain the favor.
If the tree's can't be earned in game, I will be leaving here with Rove.