Harper tree feedback

[Severlin]

shadowdancer and that tree is completely missing melee power in the latest release notes...

The cores for Shadowdancer should be granting Melee Power.

Sev~

[Maelphistez]

Going to have to play with it a bit, but this seems to make a Swash/Arti very interesting.

[redoubt]

+10 to spell DC is too much.

First, its more than you get from an ED. I think that is bad.
Second, unless you further inflate the saves of all the mobs (and now at much lower levels) this will allow an actual DC caster to hit anything not immune. Everytime. DO NOT further inflate mob saves, please, please, please.

Now I can see that is why it is on a 5 min cooldown. Its too powerful to be able to use frequently. So that is good balance... until you consider that few will take it. It is too many action points and a tier 5 lockout to be worth it. Why not take lesser bonuses that are always active in the other tier 5s?

That said, I don't think you can lower the cooldown and keep it at +10. +10 to tacticals is fine, though I doubt any fighter will take it either at the cost of other, better tier 5 enhancements. I'd suggest a +2-3 boost to spell DC and a 1 or 2 minute timer.

The harper tree may also be a place to put in something I've thought should exist for a while. That is a way to boost crowd control that does not boost insta-kill or direct damage at the same time. For example, but a +1 to enchantment in the last 3 cores. Modify the Moment of clarity to be +10 tactical, +10 enchantment DC, +3 all other DC for 12 seconds. 2 minute cooldown. I say to look for a way to do this, because in the current game, there is no reason to use CC when your instakill lands just as often; it is simply more effective to kill than control.

[Saekee]

have it tied to HARPER favor. Then you could do similar with other useless favor rewards (PDK 500, The Twelve 250). But you likely care more about money than fixing your game, so good luck and fair travels.

I was just thinking this. Can it be tied to Harper favor?

Int to damage that is available to assassins is good. I still think int to damage melee needs to be in the assassin tree. Int to damage ranged needs to be in the arti tree.

This tree seems like a huge boost to assassins as a whole because it fills in gaps that should be available to them already. The main assassin ED is shadowdancer and that tree is completely missing melee power in the latest release notes... then surprise, here it is in the harper tree. Assassin's are missing int to damage... surprise! Here it is. I have a vip account so I'll have access for not more cash than I already spend, but I really think these things should not be exclusive to this tree. i.e. INT to damage in assassin and melee power in shadowdancer.

As much as I have been drooling over the idea of getting int to damage on an assassin, I fear that this tree may be overpowered.
--There seems to be more melee power here than in many EDs.
--Until now other than str to damage has required you to have levels in a certain class. How will a DC casting wizard with this new int to damage be balanced? At first look (please note, I said first look), I see this as opening up builds that excel at everything. High DC casting, int to hit and damage with all melee and ranged weapons; make it a PM with 2 rogue and you have every archtype build and ability in one build. I.e. DC casting, melee, ranged, traps, high damage spell dots and then throw evasion with insightful reflexes on top. Defense from EK. Again, I've not run numbers, but my mind is racing with just how insanely powerful this would be.

Does this tree lock out any others? Can you get this tree and a racial tree?

Can you get tier 5 in this tree and a tier 5 in another, or does it have the normal tier 5 lockout?

well thought!

[Saekee]

Enchantment of Righteousness: Your weapon gains an additional +3 to its Enhancement bonus and Righteousness.

will this break Celestia?

[redoubt]

The cores for Shadowdancer should be granting Melee Power.

Sev~

Thank you for the reply. Could you please post the current amount being tested?

[Vargouille]

I already said this in the other thread, but figure I should repost here. This tree is going to be the thing that finally makes me leave this game. I have already canceled my subscription and if it goes live in its current form with U23 I will uninstall the game and lose one of my favorite activities for the last 5 years. I have defended Turbine among my social group for most of that time. But this is crossing a line. You have designed a drastically unblanaced tree and on top of that made it a paid item. The fact that you don't see why this is a problem is the worst part of this all.

I am not going to spend the next month ranting and raving and disrupting threads like some people do. I have said my peace and I will leave it at that.

If you want my suggestion on a way to make it work, have it tied to HARPER favor. Then you could do similar with other useless favor rewards (PDK 500, The Twelve 250). But you likely care more about money than fixing your game, so good luck and fair travels.

We really appreciate those of you taking the time to give us great feedback like this. Part of the goal with Harper was to provide new build options in smaller chunks than full races or classes but in a similar manner, as well as add value for our VIPs. The balance of the tree itself is of course subject to change before release, and why we love specific feedback here, and a major reason we preview the gameplay on Lamannia. We've already heard a broad range of opinions as to how powerful Harper is, and there doesn't seem to yet be consensus that it's unbalanced in either a too-strong or too-weak way (though both opinions have been expressed, and more).

[B0ltdrag0n]

will this break Celestia?

Anyuthing that gives an enhancement bonus breaks celestia. They really should just code it to giving +x attack and + x damage so that it stops happening.

[InsanityIsYourFriend]

I agree with JohnRove, it should be tied to favor. I really hope that you will reconsider making it paid only. I personally don't care for how powerful it is or isn't, I care about the point that you can't get it otherwise. Races and classes have always been vip free and purchasable (except for artificers and FVS) but buying a specific enhancement tree... that is too far. Anyways I ramble please I've had several friends that dislike posting also say that they are leaving because of this.

My personal idea! Tie this and all future enhancement tree's that are loose to PDK 500 favor. Get PDK 500 favor and choose from a reward list of renown or blah enhancement tree.

[Monkey_Archer]

We really appreciate those of you taking the time to give us great feedback like this. Part of the goal with Harper was to provide new build options in smaller chunks than full races or classes but in a similar manner, as well as add value for our VIPs. The balance of the tree itself is of course subject to change before release, and why we love specific feedback here, and a major reason we preview the gameplay on Lamannia. We've already heard a broad range of opinions as to how powerful Harper is, and there doesn't seem to yet be consensus that it's unbalanced in either a too-strong or too-weak way (though both opinions have been expressed, and more).

My impressions of the harper tree right now are that it seems exploitable. By itself, its not that amazing, but with time I would not be surprised to see some very creative and broken builds come out of it. I think tying it to a favor reward would also be a good idea if/when it gets released.

[whereispowderedsilve]

I agree with JohnRove, it should be tied to favor. I really hope that you will reconsider making it paid only. I personally don't care for how powerful it is or isn't, I care about the point that you can't get it otherwise. Races and classes have always been vip free and purchasable (except for artificers and FVS) but buying a specific enhancement tree... that is too far. Anyways I ramble please I've had several friends that dislike posting also say that they are leaving because of this.

My personal idea! Tie this and all future enhancement tree's that are loose to PDK 500 favor. Get PDK 500 favor and choose from a reward list of renown or blah enhancement tree.

This. I agree/concur! Waves at Ze! !

[FranOhmsford]

It means if we need a Raid Boss or cut scene or something else to absolutely affect you, this probably won't work on that.

As long as ONLY Raid Boss/Cut Scene abilities are immune to this - Great!
BUT The Destiny Dispel effects {especially in melee destinies} seem to barely work on anything so I'll withhold judgement till I actually see this in-game!

That's why we're here on Lamannia. You tell us!

Please Please Please add Wisdom to the stat boosters in this tree!
And add Charisma to the none core stat boosters!

This is a good example of a place where we see the same thing and have a different reaction. We'd like the cores to generally feel good, especially because they are all in a requirement line. Heroic Companion is something some players might not want (for instance, solo players who don't use pets or hirelings), so we consciously choose to put this into the more optional abilities in the tree, rather than the Cores. It's easy for someone who doesn't want it to ignore it, rather than having a Core ability that some player might dislike while still wanting the abilities that come after it.

Biggest problem with Halfling Heroic Companion is the incredibly short duration!

As a 2AP Core ability for max benefit this would be a good ability.

But in Tier II with 3 ranks it's a waste of AP!

[Satyriasys]

Ahh A tree open to all classes? I must say I really detest the idea of this. If this is a sign of things to come then I am not optimistic for the future of DDO.

We have been given FAR too little actual content for far too long, (epifying old content is not new content) now instead of a new Iconic Harper Race, we get some watered down, generic tree which will be either; A- Too weak and ignored by players B- Too powerful and will include "must have" enhancements for all builds. (This is why you don't give the same abilities to everyone)

Can you please just make some new Classes/Races/Iconics/Destinies/Class Trees instead of introducing some sloppy new system in which some Enhancement trees are arbitrarily open to all classes (for some reason) Reminds me of WoW and their Deathknight.

I am extremely unhappy about this... If you really want to give special trees to EVERYONE then do it correctly via Prestiges. Make new trees for all classes but make us qualify for them first by either completing special quests or having certain stats. (buying them off the DDO store doesn't count)

[whereispowderedsilve]

Ahh A tree open to all classes? I must say I really detest the idea of this. If this is a sign of things to come then I am not optimistic for the future of DDO.

We have been given FAR too little actual content for far too long, (epifying old content is not new content) now instead of a new Iconic Harper Race, we get some watered down, generic tree which will be either; A- Too weak and ignored by players B- Too powerful and will include "must have" enhancements for all builds. (This is why you don't give the same abilities to everyone)

Can you please just make some new Classes/Races/Iconics/Destinies/Class Trees instead of introducing some sloppy new system in which some Enhancement trees are arbitrarily open to all classes (for some reason) Reminds me of WoW and their Deathknight.

I am extremely unhappy about this... If you really want to give special trees to EVERYONE then do it correctly via Prestiges. Make new trees for all classes but make us qualify for them first by either completing special quests or having certain stats. (buying them off the DDO store doesn't count)

Yup, this too, I agree! Whatever happened to racial prestiges?

[Qhualor]

tying it to favor would keep the pack viable for a longer period of time. suggest to replace the greater Harper pin favor reward with this Harper tree. replacing the lesser Harper pin would just be too easy to get the 125 favor. replace the lesser Harper pin with the greater Harper pin. its just a difference in cooldown between the 2. I don't see anything wrong with making this a VIP perk either.

[nivarch]

Well.

Until now I thought you have a goal in mind: keep on the power creep but trying to bring all classes more or less in line before you designed level 30 content adapted to the godlike power we would have.
Now I doubt it. This tree seems to be going completely in the wrong direction.

It boosts build that don't really need a boost, and doesn't help does that need one.
I will let builders talk, but I clearly see OPness in that builds. I would taske it instantly on my swash (who doesn't need help), and it would probably boosts shurithrowers a lot, and they don't need it.

When you think about this tree, it probably makes wizards better at melee than barbarians...


Anyway, my opinion is that we have no idea what the next power balance will be. There are many changes ongoing and everything we know will change on release.

That is why I think you should push the tree back to 23.2. It will give you time to see the new power balance, and to collect accurate feedback.
In the current state all feedback is inherently wrong.

[LuKaSu]

Yup, this too, I agree! Whatever happened to racial prestiges?

I was thinking this too!

If we're already to the mindset that we can add more trees to whichever class, maybe we could revisit the idea of racial trees?

[Qhualor]

core:

it looks something that would be good for a Paladin or Cleric, but than theres

•20 AP, class level 12:
•Harper Training II: Int or Cha or Dex.

the Int just throws the core right off for my initial feel for Paladin or Cleric

Tier 1:

it looks something that would be good for a Paladin or Cleric, but than theres

•Awareness: +1/+2/+3 to Listen, Search, and Spot. Rank 3: +1 save versus traps.
•Strategic Combat I: You can use your Intelligence modifier to hit with Melee and Missile weapons.

so now im getting the feeling that a Divine Wizard or Holy Rogue would be a better choice for this tree.

Tier 2:

Huh? its just all over the place. you've got Heroic Companion anti-requisite, spell points, spell power, DM and Int modifier for damage. too much trying to accommodate a variety of builds.

Tier 3:

it looks something that would be good for a Cleric, but than theres

•Int or Dex: +1 Intelligence or Dexterity

Tier 4:

another tier that seems to be good for something like a Cleric, but than theres

•Int or Dex: +1 Intelligence or Dexterity

Tier 5:

oh boy! more Versatile Adept! now that we have melee/ranged/spell power, is this the kind of thing we can assume in all trees now as selectable enhancements?

so im a tripping Cleric?

•Moment of Clarity: For the next 12 seconds the DC of your spells and your tactical feats is increased by +10. Cooldown: 5 minutes.

overall, I have no clue what build/class would benefit from this the most. it just feels too all over the place and specific at the same time (if you know what I mean) to benefit some? most? all? classes. im sure another 12/6/2 build will find this tree quite good.

[Wizza]

I really like this tree. It helps the tree classes that needs it the most: Assassins, Wizards, Arties.

A couple of things:

Divine Might is too front loaded. Should be core tier 3 or just a Tier 3 ability.
Int to hit/damage is a great addition imho and as T2 seems about right, will be very welcome.

The +10 DC clicky will be very welcome to Wizards. I don't think Sorcerers will be able to afford it and Wizards DC really need some help. Great idea, a step in the right direction.

It's a T5 thou, does the same "only 1 Tier 5 per character" still applies with this tree? I'm not sure anyone would give up their T5 in their main tree for any of this Tier5.

Improved Deception and this clicky are great but not giving up Assassin, in the Assassin tree for example, on my rogue for that. And I'm not giving up Wings or Lightning Bolt on My Sorcerer (even if I had the SP) for a clicky of 12s with a 5m CD.

Know your foe will be great too. Specialized casters against some mobs sounds nice. And it's a T3, so you need to waste to AP in here.

I like the Extend and Eschew material feats. Suggested the same for the Magister ED, so I like it.

[Wizza]

Huh? its just all over the place. you've got Heroic Companion anti-requisite, spell points, spell power, DM and Int modifier for damage. too much trying to accommodate a variety of builds.

I think that's exactly their point. And I think the ideas are nice. Just some minor adjustments should be done. For instance, Divine Might is too front loaded.