Harper tree feedback

[Slasheboy]

My quick initial reactions:

Harper enhancement I seems a little too strong. A +1 to hit/damage and +3 usp that gives additional 20SP that works will ALL weapons all for the low cost of 2 AP? at T1?

Strategic combat II made me jump for joy, because finally we have a way to give repeaters to int damage mods without needing 6 art or 6 rog. Though Strategic Combat I seems a little... to powerful when combined. After all, artificer special enhancements are exclusive (int to hit OR damage only, not both)

Versatile adept seems a little too powerful for heroic levels for my taste. I mean a total of 24 MP/RP AND USP over what I would assume is 24 AP is kinda powerful. Seems more of master of everything than jack of all trades.
How about making it a core that gives 1/3 the amount spent in tree to MP and RP, and 1/2 to USP? It'll free up one entire line of enhancement worth of space, and if it's Core 1, could cost either 2 or 4 AP to "open" the tree. After all, literally every build would take versatile adept, so its
not really a tax, while making the core an expensive but powerful ability.

While we're at it, no offense, but the cores seem rather uninspired.

Master of Austerity is a pretty nice quality of life enhancement. Could be knocked down to tier 3 but I can see it in t4.
Master of Patience is another really sweet QoL enhancement. Perhaps try putting it in the arcane/divine trees as well in their T5s?

The overall int focus seems dangerous to me, with casters getting a potential +4 to int and + 1 DC with 23 AP.

Harper's freedom needs a much longer duration or a much shorter cooldown.

Know the angles is a little over the top. While I like it alot because its what Divine Might should be (+damage & tactical instead of + strength), having both strategic combat and know the angles in the same tree means min-maxing int here produces crazy about of damage.

Throat dagger is something I wish rogues get in one of their trees (maybe assassin) and looks pretty solid.

Heroic Companion is nice, but I do wish that Halflings get a superior version since everyone has access to Harper(maybe try +0.5/0.75/1.25[W], +3/5/7 to hit and saving throws, 3%/5% dodge, 12 PRR and MRR. Also, please list the duration and cooldown.

Moment of Clarity seems... dangerous, but I'm not a caster player, so I can't really comment.




I would love it if we brought back the old base class trees, while making ALL class trees non-class restricted, via this tech.
I'll settle for more classless trees like these though, if you can find a way to prevent crazy munchkining.

[lostgunman]

ok, I have to say: "I Like it."

I really do, having this to specialize in 1 tree and take Harper for general bonuses is really sweet. I think more "general" trees would be a great idea.

[Desonde]

(NEW): Harper - A new enhancement tree is now available to all classes! The Harper tree is free to VIPs, and is also available for purchase in the DDO Store.The Harper tree is currently only available to VIP players on Lamannia. Additionally, the Action Point costs of abilities are not adjusted to what they will be when U23 is released.) The tree is as follows:

A VIP/Purchased Enhancement tree needs special consideration, it cannot drastically shift power in it's own favor.

Core Abilities

-snip-

41 AP, class level 20:
Harper's Freedom: Dispel most detrimental effects from you and add +10 to all saving throws for 12 seconds. Cooldown: 5 minutes.

The core abilities are fine (perhaps a touch on the light side), but the capstone is weak and vague. What does 'most' mean?

Tier One (0 AP Required)

Strategic Combat I: You can use your Intelligence modifier to hit with Melee and Missile weapons.

The first four are great, this one however takes one of the few unique abilities mechanics and artificers still have.

Tier Two (5 AP Required)

Versatile Adept I: +2/+4/+6 to Melee Power, Ranged Power, and Universal Spell Power.

This is bad, you've already scaled back the Melee Power from Epic content and you want to add it to heroic content? This is one of the major reasons why I've been very against the addition of melee/ranged power as it makes it very easy to include pay to win features like this [This feature increases the top 0.1% damaging builds to do an extra 18% damage].

Know the Angles: Antirequisite: Divine Might. You gain an Insight bonus to damage and the DC of tactical feats equal to ½ your Intelligence Modifier for 30/60/120 seconds. (Activation Cost: 21/18/15 spell points. Cooldown: 20 seconds)

This is an example of a perfect ability to add to a purchased enhancement tree, it takes a popular existing ability and tweaks it.

Strategic Combat II: You can use your Intelligence modifier for damage with Melee and Missile weapons.

And this furthers the negation of Mechanics/Artificers.

Tier Three (10 AP Required)
Know Your Foe: Multiselector: Gain a Favored Enemy. Passive: Add +1 to the DC of your spells.

Excellent addition.

Int or Dex: +1 Intelligence or Dexterity

Should also include Charisma since it's included in the Cores.

Tier Four (20 AP Required)
Throat Dagger: Damages an enemy from afar for 1d4+4 Piercing damage per character level. Damaged non-boss enemies can't cast spells for 6 seconds. (This Spell Like Ability can be Quickened or Enlarged for no extra cost, if you have those feats.) Higher ranks reduce the small spell point cost and reduce the cooldown.

Great addition.

Magic of Austerity: Like Eschew Materials, your spells no longer need common material components. This does not increase their Spell Point cost.

This is a great example of adding something unique to a premium feature, it doesn't affect game play but greatly enhances some players' experience.

Tier Five (30 AP Required)
Moment of Clarity: For the next 12 seconds the DC of your spells and your tactical feats is increased by +10. Cooldown: 5 minutes.

For a T5 ability, the Cooldown is too long, and if the effect becomes too strong for a decent cooldown, nerf the effect. Why not a +1/2/3 to tactical feats for 20seconds w/ 30second cooldown 5 uses a rest action boost Costing 2 AP a rank?

Magic of Patience: Your spells benefit from the Extend Spell metamagic feat. This does not increase their Spell Point cost. Does not stack with Extend metamagic itself.

It's a great ability (would fully sell the T5 investment if it works on scrolls/wands/clickies as well).

Multiselector:

• Harper Enchantment of Deception: Your weapon gains an additional +1 to its Enhancement bonus and Improved Deception.
• Harper Enchantment of Righteousness: Your weapon gains an additional +3 to its Enhancement bonus and Righteousness.
• Harper Enchantment of Magic: Your weapon gains a +10 Harper bonus to Universal Spell Power.

The Harper Enchantment multiselector needs to be balanced a bit, is Improved Deception worth 2 Enhancement Bonus over Righteousness? Is +1 Universal Spell Power better than adding Righteousness to you weapons (since anyone who has a spell caster will have a Spell Casting Implement Bonus and gain +9 from that)?

[HatsuharuZ]

Some thoughts:

1) In some ways, the +int to damage is weaker than DV, since it doesn't give extra to-hit. That's fine with me, though.

2) Are you guys putting this out to test whether or not players will buy enhancement trees?

3) What seems most significant about this tree is that you get 2 extra stat points that are situated in the capstone in other trees.

4) I think "Heroic Companion" should be included as part of the core abilities, or made into one of the options in a multi-enhancement selector. Things that a player can't use on himself are not likely to be popular.

5) I feel that a capstone ability that can be used only ever 5 minutes is too weak. I'd suggest either reducing the cooldown or adding in a potent passive ability.

[Varinon]

A new tree is available in this preview of Lamannia called the Harper! This tree is available to all classes Not the way I was expecting a buff to single-class characters, but a very interesting one.. The Harper enhancement tree is free for VIP players, and available for purchase in the DDO Store for non-VIP players. Please take a look at the tree on Lamannia, play with it, and give us your feedback!

From the Release Notes:

(NEW): Harper - A new enhancement tree is now available to all classes! The Harper tree is free to VIPs, and is also available for purchase in the DDO Store.The Harper tree is currently only available to VIP players on Lamannia. Additionally, the Action Point costs of abilities are not adjusted to what they will be when U23 is released.) The tree is as follows:

• Core Abilities
  
  • 1 AP, character level 1:
    
    • Agent of Good I: +1 to hit versus evil, +1 Universal Spell Power. Bad, but that's fine. There's lots of good stuff to come.
    
    
    
  • 5 AP, class level 3:
    
    • Harper Training I: Int or Cha or Dex. Even if you only invest 6 points, as any int, dex or cha build, it's worth it for this.
    
    
    
  • 10 AP, character level 6:
    
    • Agent of Good II: +2 to hit and damage versus evil, +5 Universal Spell Power. Better than tier 1, damage boost is nice.
    
    
    
  • 20 AP, class level 12:
    
    • Harper Training II: Int or Cha or Dex. ...The stat bonuses as cores are really, really good. I can see DC sorcs dropping their secondary savant for this tree, or wizard PMs dropping some Archmage stuff. Assassin builds are almost required to be in this tree.
    
    
    
  • 30 AP, class level 18:
    
    • Agent of Good III: +3 to hit and damage versus evil, +10 Universal Spell Power. Getting to the point that these flat stat cores are getting worthwhile.
    
    
    
  • 41 AP, class level 20:
    
    • Harper's Freedom: Dispel most detrimental effects from you and add +10 to all saving throws for 12 seconds. Cooldown: 5 minutes. Harper's Pin nullifies most of this. Which.. Makes logical sense. This capstone is bad, but it's not a class capstone so there's no reason you need to be pure for it, and therefore, being 'bad' is fine--you're likely taking the capstone of your actual class.
  
  
  
• Tier One (0 AP Required)
  
  • Weathered Traveler: +1/2/3 Energy Resistance Assumed AP: 1. Okay. C-
  • Harper Enchantment I: Your weapon gains an additional +1 to its Enhancement bonus. You gain +20 to your maximum Spell Points. I am assuming this is 2 AP. Even then it's pretty good--remember casters: Enhancement bonus increases implement bonus for spell power. A-
  • Traveler's Toughness: +5/+10/+15 maximum hit points. Assumed AP: 1. Hp is nice, nothing special. C+
  • Awareness: +1/+2/+3 to Listen, Search, and Spot. Rank 3: +1 save versus traps. Assumed AP: 1. Very useful to rogues (who will likely want to be in the tree anyway) B+
  • Strategic Combat I: You can use your Intelligence modifier to hit with Melee and Missile weapons. Assumed AP: 2. Incredibly useful on a variety of builds. Assassins particular will love this. A+
  
  
  
• Tier Two (5 AP Required)
  
  • Heroic Companion:
    
    • Anti-requisite with the Halfing race version:
      
      • Action Boost: Grants an ally +0.25[W] and +2 to hit and saving throws. Usable five times per rest.
      • Action Boost: Grants an ally +0.5[W], +4 to hit and saving throws, and +2% Dodge. Usable five times per rest.
      • Action Boost: Grants an ally +1[W], +6 to hit and saving throws, +4% Dodge, and +10 Physical Resistance Rating. Usable five times per rest.
      
      Assumed AP: 2. Just like the halfling one. Promotes group play, interesting concept. Powerful, but unlikely that many will take it. B-
      
    • Magical Endurance: +30/+60/+100 maximum Spell Points. Assumed AP: 1. Looks like a spellsinger enhancement, but not bad. C+
    • Versatile Adept I: +2/+4/+6 to Melee Power, Ranged Power, and Universal Spell Power. Assumed AP: 1? If this is 1 AP, this is a pretty good ability. Unique in that it gives the new power stats. Scales very well with level, as 6% extra damage at level 4 is hardly anything. If it's 1 AP: A-, if it's 2 AP: B-
    • Know the Angles: Antirequisite: Divine Might. You gain an Insight bonus to damage and the DC of tactical feats equal to ½ your Intelligence Modifier for 30/60/120 seconds. (Activation Cost: 21/18/15 spell points. Cooldown: 20 seconds) Assumed AP: 2. About time there was an alternative to Divine Might. This seems to give less benefit than Divine Might, but it's a flat damage and tactics DC boost, meaning it'll work for any build style (Dex-based, int-based, cha-based, con-based or Wis-based, instead of just str-based. Overall: A+
    • Strategic Combat II: You can use your Intelligence modifier for damage with Melee and Missile weapons. Assumed AP: 2. Will make mechanics feel less unique, but otherwise, a very good enhancement. Wizards suddenly are amazing in melee too (maybe EK will see some use). A+
  
  
  
• Tier Three (10 AP Required)
  
  • Highly Skilled: +1/2/3 on all skills. Assumed AP: 1. Very nice, feels more like a human enhancement but it'll do. C+
  • Know Your Foe: Multiselector: Gain a Favored Enemy. Passive: Add +1 to the DC of your spells. Assumed AP: 2. Forget the favored enemy, +1 DC for 11 or 12 AP? Borderline OP as most other DC boosts are tier 5 or at least 4. Almost any DC caster will be taking this. A++
  • Versatile Adept II: +2/+4/+6 to Melee Power, Ranged Power, and Universal Spell Power. Same as Versatile Adept I
  • Harper's Leadership: Your hirelings, summoned, and charmed creatures gain +2/3/4 to all ability scores. Assumed AP: 1. I will never, ever, ever use this. That being said, some people might. It's very flavorful--do you run around with 5 gold seal hirelings as a druid? This is for you. Me, I won't use it. D+
  • Int or Dex: +1 Intelligence or Dexterity Assumed AP: 2. Sorc hate, I swear. That or you didn't want to give Spellsingers even more Cha. Good stats though, B+
  
  
  
• Tier Four (20 AP Required)
  
  • Throat Dagger: Damages an enemy from afar for 1d4+4 Piercing damage per character level. Damaged non-boss enemies can't cast spells for 6 seconds. (This Spell Like Ability can be Quickened or Enlarged for no extra cost, if you have those feats.)
    
    • Higher ranks reduce the small spell point cost and reduce the cooldown.
    
    Assumed AP: 2. No idea what the cooldown on this is. Hard to rate it without that knowledge. Does it scale with spell power? Ranged power? Melee power? Does it have a save? Too hard to rate this without that knowledge. If cooldown > 6s and no scaling & reflex save, D-. Otherwise, depends.
    
  • Versatile Adept III: +2/+4/+6 to Melee Power, Ranged Power, and Universal Spell Power.See: Versatile Adept I
  • Vigor of Life: +10 Positive Healing Amplification. -10% less damage from Negative Energy. Assumed AP: 2. Cool, another source of healing amp. Not very many of these, so it's nice when they're added. B-
  • Magic of Austerity: Like Eschew Materials, your spells no longer need common material components. This does not increase their Spell Point cost. Assumed AP: 2. Do people actually use Eschew? If this is required for the extend-clone in tier 5, it may see some use. Otherwise, it'll never be used except by the packiest of pack rats. C-
  • Int or Dex: +1 Intelligence or Dexterity Same as above.
  
  
  
• Tier Five (30 AP Required)
  
  • Versatile Adept IV: +2/+4/+6 to Melee Power, Ranged Power, and Universal Spell Power. See: Versatile Adept I
  • Vigor of Life: +10 Positive Healing Amplification. -10% less damage from Negative Energy. See: Vigor of Life (above)
  • Moment of Clarity: For the next 12 seconds the DC of your spells and your tactical feats is increased by +10. Cooldown: 5 minutes. Assumed AP: 2. 12 seconds is really short for this, which is good because it's incredibly powerful for a non-ED ability. Cooldown hurts, but I fear reducing it will just blow this into absurdity. Tentative C+
  • Magic of Patience: Your spells benefit from the Extend Spell metamagic feat. This does not increase their Spell Point cost. Does not stack with Extend metamagic itself. Assumed AP: 2. Cool, now I can feel justified dumping extend on evvverrything instead of feeling bad about it (but still dumping it). A-
  • Multiselector:
    
    • Harper Enchantment of Deception: Your weapon gains an additional +1 to its Enhancement bonus and Improved Deception.
    • Harper Enchantment of Righteousness: Your weapon gains an additional +3 to its Enhancement bonus and Righteousness.
    • Harper Enchantment of Magic: Your weapon gains a +10 Harper bonus to Universal Spell Power.

Assumed AP: 2. The two melee/ranged versions of these justify taking the harper tier 5 in some builds. Caster version is weak, but they get free extend. A+

Full review. Comments in green. Un-bolded the whole thing.
Also I have no idea of the AP costs of things. That'd be nice to know.

[HatsuharuZ]

Oh, I almost forgot...

Could we get wisdom bonuses as part of this tree? Some of it's abilities make it useful for a druid. No need for +wisdom to damage or anything like that, just please add in wisdom as an option along with the current CHA, DEX and INT stat bonuses. After all, aren't some Harpers druids?

[Nascoe]

Hm, interesting a Harper tree.

Off course some see this as further "pay to win" but honestly the one class that is used in just about any top melee and ranged build currently out there already is based on having Monk. I would hope that buying a single tree wouldn't be more expensive than buying the monk class (off course for VIPs its included, good choice to boost the value of having VIP), so in effect it rather opens up the option of staying pure with more variation (as a pure will likely have more AP to spend on this tree) or just give additional choices.

As for the tree itself, apart form heavily focused on alternatives to STR (but that is still the stat that can be boosted most), I am not sure its all that great. But I will leave it to the more serious number crunchers and build builders to give detailed feedback

[bbqzor]

give us your feedback!

Okay. Its split into tiers with specifics singled out. Previously Ive done "by item" and it just takes too long with few changes happening anyhow.

Core Abilities

While the core is okay I guess, theres noting really appealing about it per se. As in, most classes already have cores they are built around, theres little reason to suddenly go sink 41 pts into this one. The capstone is the only real draw, and with a 5min reuse its just not much of one. Yea, its another "harper pin" or "unstoppable" cooldown, okay. Cant see anyone spending half their AP and their capstone for another one of those. They dont even work on everything they seemingly should, despite constant feedback on it. Except for cases like a wiz or rog spending 6ap to snag another +1 int, dont think this core is gonna see much use.

Tier One (0 AP Required)

This is a good first tier. Lot of general utility which is actually useful, instead of the garbage utility normally seen in T1 like +1/2/3 to some skill no one cares about. While the energy resistance is a bit low (even in the harbor, 3 resist isnt going to get you very far), the rest of them are all quite appealing even at 20+. Id consider maybe the energy resist going to 2/4/6, so in the harbor your guy can get "immunity" to those d6 elemental attacks from mob weapons, thats a bit more practical. Or, leaving it 1/2/3 but also adding 1/2/3 MRR along with it. Anyhow, one lacking option aside, the rest are quite good. This T1 set is why people will buy the C1 enhancement, and the rest of the core will just sit (except ppl wanting +1 stat, as mentioned).

Tier Two (5 AP Required)

Another good tier. Again, a lot of generally useful stuff people may want. I would change the name of "know the angels" to "know the divine"... theres nothing angelic about this, but thats just fussing about the fluff implication. Im also not sure of what exact use it will be, given the difficulty in trying to line up str and int and tactics into one character. However, with my prediction of a melee artificer tree as their third option, whenever it drops, I see a future niche this would be well received in. Plus, Im sure someone will post a crazy build with it in the meantime.

Its nice to see some diversity from cha-based, but I would also point out that it might be time to take Divine Might off of turn attempts, and make them all cost mana. People can drink mana potions to keep going, classes which run out of turns are just out. It seems overly punitive to the one class that SHOULD have it in the first place. I dont think the mana mechanic is broken or anything, only that its more favorable to being practically playable, and since the turn-based classes are the ones this actually exists for in pnp, they should also get that favorable treatment.

Tier Three (10 AP Required)

This tier starts to get a bit more narrow. Skills bonuses are generally somewhat small, and by the time you are 10+ points into a tree youre hoping to be after meat and potatoes. Favored Enemy is great for rangers and few others due to how it stacks, and another 6 USP is pretty low priority relative to 6 Melee/Ranged power. Which conflicts with the +1 DC option thats appealing to casters. And Leadership, while a very cool ability, again somewhat focuses on art/dru classes. What you have here is as the tree goes up, it starts having broad appeal to everyone, by having just one single thing to pick. Meaning its very difficult for any one class to find enough things to buy to progress further. I see this as a turning point in the tree, much like the Core has one after the first rank or two. People may get to T3, pick up one cool thing, and then likely stop, making Harper a 10-15 pt investment.

Tier Four (20 AP Required)

Some nice things here, ranged casting blocker, healing amp, free eschew, etc. Its not so much the content of the tree which needs addressing. But the costs... none of those things are really worth 21+ AP. If you need amp, youve probably gone human, or itemized, or something which wont take a quarter of your AP. And I dont think anyone would say they "need" a ranged 6s spell block. Or Eschew Materials... believe me thatd be great to have for quality of life. Im glad its there to be frank, just to play with for fun. But in any "EE" or "final" build versions, I dont think youre going to see posts saying "well you gotta spend 22 AP in Harper to get Eschew". And, by extension, there are few reasons to say "you gotta spend 30 AP through T4 to unlock T5". Further lending weight to the idea that this is a 10-15 point tree. Theres just not enough here to buy to fill up to move on, without just taking "fun" things which arent really meat and potatoes. We are so AP starved, we cant afford to NOT be taking meat and potatoes. Thats just how the current system is. Too much to buy, not enough points, sure it forces "decisions" but really it just means we cant ever do anything off the beaten path without making a huge compromise in viability.

Tier Five (30 AP Required)

Okay, the big T5, the tier you gave up all your other choices for. The tier worth spending 10+ AP in to unlock the capstone. The tier... hm... uh... kind of.

Oh look, another 5min cd ability. Basically worthless. I know you dev guys player slower than players. Thats not a slam, it just is. Things like "halls will take you 5 hours the first time through"... more like 90 mins. Because we spent 20 trying to get the dragon in the instance with no dragon =p. You just dont zerg like we do, even those of us who are casual and not zerging. We still play more, thats what we do, we are players and we spend our time playing. 5mins is just too freaking long for any cooldown at this point in the game. Time and again, anything thats that long, you see complaints "its too long a cooldown, the ability is good enough for the cooldown, make the cooldown shorter, make the ability better" etc etc etc. Thats the genius of something like Zeal in DC.... STILL not a 5 min cooldown, but the time the ability is actually "off" is far less than even the 4 min cd.

And thats not even getting into the fact that this is +10 DC, while magister sits at half that. Is this a subtle hint that Magister is going to get reworked in the future, to also be +10?

Anyhow, its a nice ability, but 12s on and 288s off is a terrible use ratio. Id go more like 20s on and 100s off (2min cd, duration equal to action boost), and if it means the bonus drops to +5 fine. If youre trying to build for something, +5 is usually enough to make it go from shakey to solid, and having it there to use for longer periods much more often is more "playable" than the current version. Which, Id point out, is basically "once per quest" since the spots you need +5 or +10 are so rare, that with 5 min cd, youre almost never going to hit the button more than once.

Free extend is good, its the kind of thing I like to see as supplemental T5 choices. Great and useful if you need it, not really worth the feat anymore in todays game, excellent choice for a few AP for someone at T5 looking to get up to the 41 pt mark.

The multiselector has good options too, but, Id point out: Why hurt rogues so much? +1 and deception instead of effectively +5? In a tree which focuses on int (and dex)? Maybe we can get like +3 on that as well... its not like rogues wont already have deception gear choices available. If theyre going to take this over ASSASSINATE or KNIFE SPEC or STAFF SPEC well... it needs to hold up. Otherwise, whos going to take this? A bard? They just got their own great set of T5s.

And the spellpower one... meh. 10 SP for a T5, I dunno... most cast-y trees by the time you get to T5 you have 30 pts into the tree at say 0.5sp/pt, so youre +15 right there. Then the T5 is usually +10 or +15. With harper, theres no passive, so youre kinda forced to buy the cores, and the +6 every tier, and this to sorta "keep up" on the spellpower front. But then you got no SLAs or other caster-y things. I mean would it kill you guys to do something kinda as cool as "free deception" or "free +5 vs evil" here? Maybe +3 to weapon enhancement like the other two have (assuming my other feedback), which is +9 to spell power via implement bonus, so almost the same. Then make it like +2 Spell Pen as well? The tree otherwise doesnt have any spell pen, and seriously, Harpers should be good at that. I mean they get bonuses to all other dc type things from tactics to casting etc. For T5, I think some spell pen is fine, and theres no reason to take away the "enhancement" bonus portion either. The tree lets you use int to atk/dmg, surely there will be some "casting melee" hybrids here. Why basically "nerf" their weapons by proxy on the multiselector? Give them the help they need, theyre skipping EKs Tensors for this. Go with +3 (so +9sp) and +2 pen (or whatever other option, just pointing out what direction to go).

--------

Overall, its nothing I would have asked for or felt the game needed. But, it will see use, and it does have useful things. Ultimately its a 10-15 pt splash for 90% of users, with the oddball builds that may want to go a bit higher. I doubt you will see any T5/Capstone users without some adjustment, and possibly without future content being released. Its simply too much of an opportunity cost to go here vs somewhere else. But there is potential. Especially as other things are fleshed out.

And finally... with the 5th Ed of PnP out and its 5 main organizations, of which this is one... can we expect to see 4 more trees as DDO plays along? Because, you know, thatd kinda make sense and all... otherwise why spend the time on this one =p.

[Vargouille]

The core abilities are fine (perhaps a touch on the light side), but the capstone is weak and vague. What does 'most' mean?

It means if we need a Raid Boss or cut scene or something else to absolutely affect you, this probably won't work on that.

The Harper Enchantment multiselector needs to be balanced a bit, is Improved Deception worth 2 Enhancement Bonus over Righteousness? Is +1 Universal Spell Power better than adding Righteousness to you weapons (since anyone who has a spell caster will have a Spell Casting Implement Bonus and gain +9 from that)?

That's why we're here on Lamannia. You tell us!

4) I think "Heroic Companion" should be included as part of the core abilities, or made into one of the options in a multi-enhancement selector. Things that a player can't use on himself are not likely to be popular.

This is a good example of a place where we see the same thing and have a different reaction. We'd like the cores to generally feel good, especially because they are all in a requirement line. Heroic Companion is something some players might not want (for instance, solo players who don't use pets or hirelings), so we consciously choose to put this into the more optional abilities in the tree, rather than the Cores. It's easy for someone who doesn't want it to ignore it, rather than having a Core ability that some player might dislike while still wanting the abilities that come after it.

[slarden]

Most Harpers I know in-game are pikers, with the exception of the nice Huntsilver fellow in Overgrowth. He seems OK, and he helps me take down the evil dryad creature in the end fight when I solo the quest.

At least someone is paying attention.

The tree will be useful for some builds, eld knight, arti, assassin. There are just so few action points I don't see fitting in for most builds.

The thing I like most about it is that it opens up some new build possibilities.

[Saekee]

the INt to hit and damage will be very welcome to assassin builds. The Tier 5 of improved deception is also very nice, probably especially for mechanics who might choose it; hard to give it up on acrobats and assassins.

[Propane]

Enchantment of Righteousness: Your weapon gains an additional +3 to its Enhancement bonus and Righteousness.

This needs to be added for Paladin!

Make it part of Holly Sword or something... core ablity... just somewhere...

[John_Rove]

I already said this in the other thread, but figure I should repost here. This tree is going to be the thing that finally makes me leave this game. I have already canceled my subscription and if it goes live in its current form with U23 I will uninstall the game and lose one of my favorite activities for the last 5 years. I have defended Turbine among my social group for most of that time. But this is crossing a line. You have designed a drastically unblanaced tree and on top of that made it a paid item. The fact that you don't see why this is a problem is the worst part of this all.

I am not going to spend the next month ranting and raving and disrupting threads like some people do. I have said my peace and I will leave it at that.

If you want my suggestion on a way to make it work, have it tied to HARPER favor. Then you could do similar with other useless favor rewards (PDK 500, The Twelve 250). But you likely care more about money than fixing your game, so good luck and fair travels.

[whereispowderedsilve]

I already said this in the other thread, but figure I should repost here. This tree is going to be the thing that finally makes me leave this game. I have already canceled my subscription and if it goes live in its current form with U23 I will uninstall the game and lose one of my favorite activities for the last 5 years. I have defended Turbine among my social group for most of that time. But this is crossing a line. You have designed a drastically unblanaced tree and on top of that made it a paid item. The fact that you don't see why this is a problem is the worst part of this all.

I am not going to spend the next month ranting and raving and disrupting threads like some people do. I have said my peace and I will leave it at that.

If you want my suggestion on a way to make it work, have it tied to HARPER favor. Then you could do similar with other useless favor rewards (PDK 500, The Twelve 250). But you likely care more about money than fixing your game, so good luck and fair travels.

Yup, this. Would be nice to have ED's implemented the same way(tie it to favor or some such) so some f2p players could experience it as well.

Turbine also still hasn't managed to address the how to get xp in off ED's as well either.

[Delacroix21]

Does the Int to-hit and damage work on handwraps?


My guess is No...


Does anything in this game work for handwraps anymore?

[ddorimble]

I already said this in the other thread, but figure I should repost here. This tree is going to be the thing that finally makes me leave this game. I have already canceled my subscription and if it goes live in its current form with U23 I will uninstall the game and lose one of my favorite activities for the last 5 years. I have defended Turbine among my social group for most of that time. But this is crossing a line. You have designed a drastically unblanaced tree and on top of that made it a paid item. The fact that you don't see why this is a problem is the worst part of this all.

I am not going to spend the next month ranting and raving and disrupting threads like some people do. I have said my peace and I will leave it at that.

If you want my suggestion on a way to make it work, have it tied to HARPER favor. Then you could do similar with other useless favor rewards (PDK 500, The Twelve 250). But you likely care more about money than fixing your game, so good luck and fair travels.

The Shadar-Kai, PDK, and Bladeforged PrEs are basically the same way. Druid and Monk too. Personally I think Shadar-Kai sucks, but I don't see this as any more unbalanced than PDK or Bladeforged, or centered Kensai Monks.

Just curious if you raged at those?

[whereispowderedsilve]

The Shadar-Kai, PDK, and Bladeforged PrEs are basically the same way. Druid and Monk too. Personally I think Shadar-Kai sucks, but I don't see this as any more unbalanced than PDK or Bladeforged.

Just curious if you raged at those?

Correct me if I am wrong, but those were sold in/or with an expansion pack initially no?

Then available for turbine points later on? But still, this is the first time they are doing it with just an enhancement tree no?

It is a slippery slope regardless...sigh.

[ArcaneArcher52689]

Over all, I really like the idea.
Core enhancements seem pretty decent. Simple issue here is spell power. I would rather see .5USP/point than the spell power remaining in the cores as is. Right now its 31pts=16USP, but 21pts=6USP(not counting versatile adept). Makes it very difficult to get good spell power from the tree without going all in.

as for the rest, here's my view:
Tier 1: overall, pretty good t1 for a generalist's tree

• Strategic combat I is amazing for a small number of builds, but still amazing. Since the cores give Int/Dex/Cha, why can't the option be a multiselector for Int/Dex/Cha?
• 15HP is pretty good for 3pts(assumption)
• Harper enhancement I: I like it, but I'm kind of disappointed there aren't more of these
• Weathered Traveler/awareness- standard low level stuff, not used for heavy splashes, but useful for a few spare points.

Tier two seems pretty solid- Once again, plenty of places to spend points for plenty of people. However, this is where int based builds will shine and rule.

• Heroic companion is an okay deal, but not sure I'll ever use it, as I'm mainly solo.
• Magical Endurance: solid 100spell points. Would like to see it grant magical training to those without it.
• Versatile Adept I: 6 RP/MP/USP? I'm hoping 1point per, but it seems like a good deal even for 2
• Know the Angles: A divine might that uses intelligence? Honestly this ability is amazing and will be one of the things that makes this tree sell.
• Stratecic Combatant II- Int to damage with melee and missile weapons- seems great. Might wish for dex/cha here too, but doubt we'll get it.

Tier 3 is where things start to get meh. It becomes a bit harder to justify points here

• Highly skilled: would depend on AP cost, but as it's one of the only enhancements to boost UMD, might be worth it.
• Versatile Adept II is just as good as the first one.
• Know your Foe: Multislector between Favored enemy and +1 spell DC. Spell DC is good, Favored enemy is meh. I'd rather have 2 more Melee/Ranged/USP as an option here.
• Harper's Leadership: As much as I enjoy the concept of a summoner build, I don't think this is the right way to go about it. Maybe something more like the Primal avatar route of : minions gain +2 stats, minion's gain an effect on vorpal(knockdown?), minions gain a % chance of effect on attack/offensive spellcast
• Int/Dex? Why no Charisma if we can get charisma in the cores?

Tier four has some better stuff than tier 3,but not sure if it's good enough.

• Throat dagger: average 6damage/level. With no(0), low(50), medium(100), and high spellpowers(200), we get a lvl 20 dealing 120, 180, 240, and 360 respectively. Not bad, for a character without any of them, but not really great with. Maybe add maximize/empower?
• Versatile adept- still good- by now, you'll have 18USP/MP/RP
• Vigor of life: Hm... always a fan of healing amp.
• Magic of Austerity: Free eschew materials is not a tier 4 ability. It is tier 2 at most. 9 inventory spots is nice, but not worth t4. I'd move this to one of the core abilities.
• Int/Dex- once again, why no Charisma?

the tier 5 is somewhat disappointing. I feel like the abilities are all relatively strong, but it needs a bit more for me to reach out and try it.

• Versatile adept- Still good, but for t5, might up it to 3/6/10- after all, it's a t5
• Vigor of life- still love me some healing amp, but need a reason to take t5 here instead of elsewhere
• Moment of Clarity: This is the only thing here worth taking t5 over other trees imho. +10 DC to spells/tactics is huge. However, I think there's a big difference between +10 spell DC's and +10 tactics that's not represented. +10 spell DC's deserves a 5 minute cooldown, because in that 12 seconds, you'll get your work done, whether it's a disco ball, wail, mass hold, w/e, you'll get your money's worth. +10 tactics doesn't give you that. You MAY get 2 stuns and a trip on a melee. Monks might make better use of it, but that's about it. Maybe make this a multi-selector where spells have a 5 min coold down and tactics has a 2 min cooldwon(maybe 1 min 30 sec...)
• Magic of Patience- Free extend spell is a fairly worthy T5 ability. Especially for wierd splashes. However, once again, it's not enough to draw someone to t5 all by itself.
  
• Harper enchantments:
  
  • Deception- +1ehn and imp. deception-good
  • Righteousness: +3 enhancement and good? -okay.
  • magic: 10USP- not bad, but I think it should be +1 enh, +9 usp.

All in all, I really like the idea of the tree, and it gives toons a lot more options. But I see very few cases where I'd ever want to go to t5.

[ddorimble]

Correct me if I am wrong, but those were sold in/or with an expansion pack initially no?

Then available for turbine points later on? But still, this is the first time they are doing it with just an enhancement tree no?

It is a slippery slope regardless...sigh.

I was gonna say, the complaint to me would seem they're selling us less. The others I mentioned were entire races or classes. That being said, if it is appropriately priced less, I don't see how it falls out of line with anything else we've paid for.

[redoubt]

Int to damage that is available to assassins is good. I still think int to damage melee needs to be in the assassin tree. Int to damage ranged needs to be in the arti tree.

This tree seems like a huge boost to assassins as a whole because it fills in gaps that should be available to them already. The main assassin ED is shadowdancer and that tree is completely missing melee power in the latest release notes... then surprise, here it is in the harper tree. Assassin's are missing int to damage... surprise! Here it is. I have a vip account so I'll have access for not more cash than I already spend, but I really think these things should not be exclusive to this tree. i.e. INT to damage in assassin and melee power in shadowdancer.

As much as I have been drooling over the idea of getting int to damage on an assassin, I fear that this tree may be overpowered.
--There seems to be more melee power here than in many EDs.
--Until now other than str to damage has required you to have levels in a certain class. How will a DC casting wizard with this new int to damage be balanced? At first look (please note, I said first look), I see this as opening up builds that excel at everything. High DC casting, int to hit and damage with all melee and ranged weapons; make it a PM with 2 rogue and you have every archtype build and ability in one build. I.e. DC casting, melee, ranged, traps, high damage spell dots and then throw evasion with insightful reflexes on top. Defense from EK. Again, I've not run numbers, but my mind is racing with just how insanely powerful this would be.

Does this tree lock out any others? Can you get this tree and a racial tree?

Can you get tier 5 in this tree and a tier 5 in another, or does it have the normal tier 5 lockout?