Harper tree feedback

[Thrudh]

Store was only for convenience and cosmetics

What game are you playing?

EDs cost TP
Various entire classes and races cost TP
What's so horrible about a general enhancement costing TP?

[FestusHood]

What game are you playing?

EDs cost TP
Various entire classes and races cost TP
What's so horrible about a general enhancement costing TP?

Not to mention the vast majority of the actual content.

[Dagolar]

Sadly to me this is another point that shows how ignored WIS is:

WIS is the only stat that has no spells, enhancements, or classes that allow for WIS to attack or damage

Yet. Same for Int up till Swashbuckler and Harper.

WIS is the only stat that has NO racial stat base.
WIS is the only stat with no core racial enhancements

If you can convince the devs to add in an Aasimar Iconic, I'm all for extra races.
The lack of wisdom based races is an issue with core pnp- or rather, with pnp core races.
Subraces [Humans->Aasimar, Gnomes->Wood Gnomes, Orcs->Grey Orcs, etc] typically are the ones in pnp that have wisdom buffs. Thus far DDO has held more to core races, rather than subs. Nevermind the complete lack of gnomes altogether. :P

I think the universal spell power should be .25 per point spent in the tree.

.5 would be more in line with other classes, and far less annoying to contemplate when slotting AP in the tree.

Would be nice if being Completionist also unlock this tree too?

No. Though it'd be kinda nifty if Completionist did unlock one..
On the flip side, if people get totally fed up with arguably completely rational tree inclusions, imagine how they'd feel about one that requires such notable effort to unlock.
Well, if it's store-purchasable as well, I guess it's not too much of a stress.. at that point, it'd really just be a bonus for the players that've emphasized TRing over the years.

Silver Flame Adept - abilities against undead and demons for those classes that struggle against them. Perhaps some longbow enhancements since it is the favored weapon.

Deneith Mercenary - Tactical abilities for the up close and personal types

War Wizards - Casting tricks and abilities. Perhaps Familiars?

Yugoloth - ?? Crazy enhancements for out of this world characters? ( I am not sure what the Yugoloths do..Alchemy? Potions? Archon type stuff?)

Path specialists (for FvS) were already contemplated, both for specialized combat and specialized casting. Until the devs get around to a FvS pass, those seem to be shelved for the duration. Silver Flame Exorcist was contemplated for cleric at one time as well, I believe.

Deneith Mercenary is more a profession than a skill-set, and Kensei is considered the fighter tactical tree. Not saying we don't need more specialized pal/fighter trees, but that concept doesn't seem to fit.

War Wizards - That'd be a good one to unlock. Fit well into the ever-so-useless 'Honorary Member of the Twelve' favor unlock.
Though I always contemplated that favor unlock as opening up a universal (ala Harper) Twelve tree. The Twelve- outside of the War Wizards- are based off of Dragonmarks and Alchemy. It'd make for an interesting universal tree, maybe emphasize dragonmarks a bit better.


Yugoloths are just the NE demon/devil-esque faction. While demons are CE and devils are LE, Yugoloths (or daemons in non-eberron settings) are NE.
Ergo, you're basically asking to become a race through a prestige line. :P

Anyway, your specific examples aside, I do agree with your motivation to add in more conceptual prestige paths.

[Zafaron]

I really like the utility of this tree. It frees up some flavor feats on certain builds, especially the more feat starved classes. I also don't understand why artificers would complain about getting the int to damage and to hit from this tree since it would free up a couple spell slots if they took it from the Harper tree instead. I also hope that there are future plans for more of these universal trees, I think they're a very good idea.

[EllisDee37]

I rather like the idea of a completionist tree, and think it would be a worthy thing to brainstorm and implement. And I do not now and never will have a completionist.

Basically fill it up with generic stuff: stats, skills, sprint boost (for sure), etc...

[TankerWade]

Path specialists (for FvS) were already contemplated, both for specialized combat and specialized casting. Until the devs get around to a FvS pass, those seem to be shelved for the duration. Silver Flame Exorcist was contemplated for cleric at one time as well, I believe.

Deneith Mercenary is more a profession than a skill-set, and Kensei is considered the fighter tactical tree. Not saying we don't need more specialized pal/fighter trees, but that concept doesn't seem to fit.

War Wizards - That'd be a good one to unlock. Fit well into the ever-so-useless 'Honorary Member of the Twelve' favor unlock.
Though I always contemplated that favor unlock as opening up a universal (ala Harper) Twelve tree. The Twelve- outside of the War Wizards- are based off of Dragonmarks and Alchemy. It'd make for an interesting universal tree, maybe emphasize dragonmarks a bit better.


Yugoloths are just the NE demon/devil-esque faction. While demons are CE and devils are LE, Yugoloths (or daemons in non-eberron settings) are NE.
Ergo, you're basically asking to become a race through a prestige line. :P

Anyway, your specific examples aside, I do agree with your motivation to add in more conceptual prestige paths.

Agreed, The point I was trying to make needed some examples to define it so I spit-balled a few. I would never pretend to be as well versed in how things might fit in the game as many posters here. I have managed enough projects in real life to know that it's usually better to let others sharpen the details.

I left a key point out of my original post and your Deneith comment made me realize it. Please don't get caught up in the mercenary part of the title - Severlin called the Harper tree "Harper Agent" so I felt compelled to give a title to my tree, but I would have been better calling it "House Denieth" to show that you are joining that group.

I envision these Conceptual Prestige Paths (I am stealing this Dagolar, Flavor is a bad word here on the forums) as extra trees for pure builds. I really see this as their goal and best use. Maybe I am just hoping.

In that context having a House Deneith (call it and shape it however you need to, not my strength) tree would add tactical abilities to class that doesn't have them, without having to take levels in Fighter to get Kensai. You could be a pure Cleric and spend points in the house D tree and get tactical abilities without having to splash for it. Of course, as I mentioned in my original post don't overlap the ED's. Make them unique abilities that many classes would like to add, ideally ones that mimic both the feats and the tree of the class they are emulating.

The obvious question comes up (and has come up several times here) why not just fix the current racial and class trees instead of introduce new ones. I think the answer to that is players are already using those trees. It is easier, acceptance-wise, to make new trees than to modify ones that players have characters built on. They still need to pass all the trees, but introducing new ones sidesteps bias and has a shiny object allure, as evidenced by this morning shock reveal. I hope they continue down this path.

[Nascoe]

The cores for Shadowdancer should be granting Melee Power.

Sev~

Some follow up:

~ We envision Eberron characters who spend points in this tree to be House Phiarlan operatives.

~ We like the idea of allowing players to unlock this through Harper favor and can look into adding that for Update 24.

Sev~

Thank you for the idea on this being a Phiarlan operative tree in reality (they are only playing on being harpers :-P ) and YES, please for the favor unlock if included in U24. Sure, VIP gets it now (well they should, gives some meaning to VIP), you can buy it if you feel you can't wait, and then you can unlock it, if you haven't already done so.

Now we just need to get you guys to give the PDK Iconic for top end PDK favor :-) as well as find a house to ty shadar kai and Sun elf into. Or just find nice other rewards for the top lvls of favor to make it an actual goal again to get house favor.

[TankerWade]

"~ We envision Eberron characters who spend points in this tree to be House Phiarlan operatives."

I'm not sure why you need to explain it at all. It's ok that we are Harper agents in Eberron. You (we?) blasted a giant hole in the planes and connected the two realms.

It would be silly to think that residents of the Forgotten Realms aren't coming over for Airship rides. SHIPS THAT FLY! Yea, the Harpers are over here..

[droid327]

~ We like the idea of allowing players to unlock this through Harper favor and can look into adding that for Update 24.

Sev~

Boom. I'm on board now. Bring on the Age of the Hartificer

I'm fine with VIP getting "early access" as long as it's not permanently p2w locked.

[JP457]

So let me see if I got this right.

We have several classes - Artificer, Druid, Fighter, Favored Soul - who only have two class enhancement trees. So Turbine, after telling us for over a year (if not longer) that they will finish them, puts out a Harper tree that I don't recall anyone asking for.

Did anyone ask for this? Did anyone say "yeah, go ahead and skip the trees for the classes that only have two".

[Bolo_Grubb]

Why add this tree? Why call it harper? None of the other favor groups have their own tree. Is this something we can expect to come down the road? A tree for every favor group?

I do not understand the need for it. There is a limited number of action points. I will have to spend more time later to see if anything in this tree has any benefit to any of my current characters.

I can say that I do not like the idea of more options for Int based melee. It make no sense what so ever to be an Int based great sword user. Int based dagger and crossbow I can see, but most anything else just does not work for me. More DC for Arcane seems bad, but then I don't play arcane much so maybe I wrong about that.

More options is generally a good thing, but it has to make sense with in the world you have created.

You are spending developer time on a new tree when there are plenty of bugs that we have been asking to be fixed for years. If you want to create new, more quest series like Vault of Night that work best with a variety of classes and abilities within the group. And make it so that it does actually require a group to completed on Epic elite, not something a person can solo like most the game is currently.

[moo_cow]

I agree. Even if my Sorcerer would love more Charisma, they really shouldn't get it. Besides, Charisma is everywhere. Int is not.

This is a serious question, it may be nubish cause I don't know how, but how is int not everywhere? Do int and charisma not have the exact same places to get points from? Does this tree not push int higher then charisma. In most cases int would be higher then charisma, if looking at wiz compared to sorc and such.

[Severlin]

Some design notes:

When we were looking at this tree, one of the goals was to create a tree that bolstered a number of different (and less effective) builds. The fact that this tree can be used to good effect by Artificers, Assassins, Wizards, and maybe even Int based Rangers speaks to the advantage of a tree that is not locked to one class. We can focus on many play styles at once. That is not something we can do with purely class trees, especially since some of the classes that could use a boost already have three trees.

Sev~

[nivarch]

Some design notes:

When we were looking at this tree, one of the goals was to create a tree that bolstered a number of different (and less effective) builds. The fact that this tree can be used to good effect by Artificers, Assassins, Wizards, and maybe even Int based Rangers speaks to the advantage of a tree that is not locked to one class. We can focus on many play styles at once. That is not something we can do with purely class trees, especially since some of the classes that could use a boost already have three trees.

Sev~

I am glad with a tree that boosts the mentioned classes.
A tree that boosts every melee or ranged builds not so much.

I don't think shuriken builds or swash builds are in need of a boost.

[maddong]

From feedback it is obvious that the tree is a grand success.

I would make know the angles be antireq with strategic combat ii and different tack two steps ahead as it lets you get 2*int mod for thf and swf and 2.5*int mod per swing with twf (counting both hands). Otherwise int based will be better than everything else. You could also make the player immune to insightful damage while it is active.

Especially since you can use things like energy burst with such builds.

[Powskier]

wow this is over the top ,considering fighters/barbs dont get any str bonus to their dcs(just straight 2 ap each from enhance tree..oh & dwarf get em at 1 ap each) great, casters will be stunning enemies on EE when not spell shootin.

[Severlin]

I don't think shuriken builds or swash builds are in need of a boost.

When we looked at those builds we didn't see this tree boosting them that much. They are AP heavy builds that already dip into multiple trees, and they function very well on other attributes. The only thing about Harper that might be too much with those builds is it might provide too much Melee Power/Ranged Power from Versatile Adept.

Now, if you've tested a build that overperforms then we'd love to see it so we can nip that in the bud.

Sev~

[maddong]

Someone test int based pal 14/monk 3/x 3 shuriken tosser and int based monkcher with fury shot?

Edit: dex based is going to be better for shuriken but you can still add to damage on your dex build, which is nice cause normally the base dam on shuriken a sucks..

[Gremmlynn]

Yup, this. Would be nice to have ED's implemented the same way(tie it to favor or some such) so some f2p players could experience it as well.

I used points earned from playing the game for those myself.

[Scrabbler]

Vague future suggestion:

Create a Gatekeepers enhancement tree, available to any character (VIP or "earned" it) but locking out the Harper tree. It includes Wisdom and some wisdom-based abilities, Druid-like stuff, anti-Outsider anti-Aberration anti-Elemental features, dismissal SLA, much Abjuration DC, and immunities including a Deathward spell and "Anchoring" (banishment-ward).