Update 23 Second Look

[Severlin]

I really need to stress that not all robe wearers have evasion so need to have a way to increase that cap possibly with orbs increasing the caps (and counting as large shields for enhancements and MRR)

Robe users will have the potential for up to 50 MRR over what they have on live. Casters have their own defenses from spells. If it turns out those are insufficient then my thought is that we would add high level spells that add to mitigation for casters and don't appear as clickies. We'd do that as part of a caster pass.

Sev~

[Failedlegend]

Robe users will have the potential for up to 50 MRR over what they have on live. Casters have their own defenses from spells. If it turns out those are insufficient then my thought is that we would add high level spells that add to mitigation for casters and don't appear as clickies. We'd do that as part of a caster pass.

Sev~

Ah ok, still sad to see Orbs being kind of un-used especially because some of them look wicked awesome.

As for Spells/SLAs what about Eldritch shield in the EK line, it requires a shield so maybe have it be a multi-selector instead that grants extra cap breaking MRR (like CL & MCL) when wielding an Orb.

Also those "caster defenses" you mention can easily be wiped out by a single dispel like effect (beholders, etc.) so I'd like to see some sort of resistance to that kind of stuff somewhere (possibly EK)

Anyways if you do end up doing/announcing a caster pass I'll be sure to contribute as much as possible

Thanks for the feedback. I will look into whether the issue was only energy resistance and MRR, or it was also an issue with DR and PRR.

Sev~

Is really such a bad thing for it to be the other way around?

I mean DR is a joke right now, if it went Damage - PRR = X - DR = Final damage it would make DR useful again.

[Sebastrd]

One thing that's messing up our mitigation balance testing; (as players have reported) DR and energy resistance are being subtracted from damage after it is being reduced by PRR and MRR. That wasn't our intent as it makes those abilities far more powerful; the buffs to PRR are also effectively boosting the relative power of straight subtracted damage effects. We are discussing that internally.

Sev~

Why even keep DR around? It's an old mechanic that accomplishes the same thing as PRR but in an inelegant, poorly-scaling manner.

[Nightmanis]

A buff like this to DR would be nice if DR was more build dependent and didn't come in such huge quantities on items. Barbarian with full DR spec or Adamantine Body Warforged with all general feats spent on Improved Damage Reduction can't sadly compete with Shadow Guardian effect or EE Ring of the Djinn for example.

Maximum DR possible for Barbarian is afaik 14/-. With 50% PRR mitigation it would mean 28 base damage results in a zero. For 60/epic effect on Shadow Guardian hits of up to 120 base damage result in a zero. With higher mitigation each point of DR gets even better.

I hope that something gets done about build based DR in general whenever you decide to look at Barbarians as it is one of their defining abilities. Items that equal or exceed DRs granted by class/feat investments shouldn't have been released imo(though 14/- is like nothing when you can get hit for 200 points per attack). Now that there are such items I'm not sure what is the best way to deal with this problem.

They really should make all the WF and Barb DR stacking. Hell, a WF Barb with the Shadow Docent with Addy body should have the highest DR possible currently.

Or at least in my opinion it should.

[bbqzor]

Robe users will have the potential for up to 50 MRR over what they have on live. Casters have their own defenses from spells. If it turns out those are insufficient then my thought is that we would add high level spells that add to mitigation for casters and don't appear as clickies. We'd do that as part of a caster pass

The problem isnt "casters" wearing "robes". Its monks. And I am tired of people saying monks are OP. There is nothing you can do on a monk you cant do on some other build (in terms of defenses, for the purposes of this topic, etc etc... dont go all monkcher on me). Just because they are more convenient to build with in reaching some totals doesnt make them any more OP than a sorc relative to a wizard, simply because the sorc has an easier time getting spellpower or whatever.

Why should a tanking monk be at a marked disadvantage over a tanking evasion build of any sort, simply because of their requirement to use no armor over light armor? Remember, this isnt PRR... this is MRR. And it pertains to Evasion. If Evasion and Improved Evasion are balanced at 100MRR for all the other cases, it should follow that they are balanced here as well.

Two suggestions:

Make the non-armor MRR cap 50, +2 for every monk level. Then add +2 MRR to the cores of Grandmaster 1-5 (ie, not the 0 one). This means a 20 Monk hits the 100 cap when in GMoF, 90 while out of it, and down from there for people multiclassing (the typical 2 monk splash hardly matters at all). Note, I am NOT saying adds 2 MRR directly. I am saying adds to the MRR cap... you have to get the MRR itself from somewhere else.

Then, instead of adding high level spells for any caster concerns, I would suggest utilizing Orbs more. Have orbs provide passive MRR like shields, but only if you have magical training. This is a simple option that gives Orb use some measure of defense outside of "active blocking" to get the existing benefit. It also prevents monks from using it since Orbs wont allow centering. Furthermore, it is easy to tie into class levels like the monk solution (+2 per "magical training" class levels, any class with the feat can count towards the total) meaning it wont be a simple "oh I took a feat to unlock a ton of MRR cap". It also keeps the cap at 90 (50 base, plus 40 for 20 magical training levels) which, even in the best case, is still less than what armor would provide.

Additionally, it allows something like a light armor evasion build with casting to maybe get a bit over 100 (but again, far short of what medium/heavy can obtain, with a max of 140 in some kind of bard or eldritch knight version). Since they were originally 200 and this requires them to forgo using an actual shield, it seems fair. Like a way to make a "spell tanking" guy vs a "melee tanking" guy. And frankly, those kinds of characters should be really good against spells. Thats kind of their fluff, and if it makes orb a more appealing choice for bards thats probably a good thing as I have never yet seen one actually being played on live at epic levels. Itd be really neat to see an EK with an orb just kind of shrugging off magic while swashbuckling with a rapier in the other hand and throwing spells back... I mean that sounds like a harper right? Stuff writes itself.

In summary... its pretty easy math. MRR is making EVERYONE better. People worried about "too better relative to X" need to realize... X has changed. The new X is way more resilient than the old one. If 100 MRR (50% dmg) is balanced for evasion, that means they are taking 0% or 50%. With Improved Evasion it means 0% or 25%. If thats balanced, then its balanced. All cases of Evasion should be in that boat. Making monks die to spells easier (the one thing they were supposed to be top notch in relative to other evaders in pnp, hence the innate SR type stuff) just to avoid buffing casters is insufficient. Use a solution which accomplishes the goal without penalizing anyone else. Do things right, take the time and be sure its right. And if you add some cool new "vs magic" style tanks and open up a new build niche, well, that can hardly be a bad thing. Id welcome having differently oriented tank design. The game could use some more actual "build goal" variance, instead of just more ways to get top dps.

Thanks.

[Failedlegend]

Monks have evasion...they don't need MRR

I agree with the Orb stuff though.

[Fefnir_2011]

Robe users will have the potential for up to 50 MRR over what they have on live. Casters have their own defenses from spells. If it turns out those are insufficient then my thought is that we would add high level spells that add to mitigation for casters and don't appear as clickies. We'd do that as part of a caster pass.

Sev~

Caster pass? those words make me feel all tingly. Don't tease the casters like that.

[bbqzor]

Monks have evasion...they don't need MRR

By that logic rogues, rangers, swashbucklers, druids using evasion from primal, and anyone in light armor in shadowdancer also need no MRR.

Its not about "who needs MRR". The devs already made that decision... EVERYONE gets it.

Since everyone has it, people in comparable and equal circumstances should have comparable and equal access. Otherwise, it creates imbalance. There is no reason to say "everyone with evasion gets 100 MRR... except monks, you get 50". And thats what the situation currently is.

Its not about need, its about making sure the playing field is even. There is no reason for this, years down the road, to be yet another imbalanced thing that they wind up having to redo and recode to try and fix problems. This punishes anyone using monk for evasion vs anything else for evasion. Thats not good... evasion is the same mechanic in either case.

If its balanced for one, then its balanced. Let everyone have the same level of defense, its better for us, and its easier to balance around.

Maybe theyd rather tie it to Water stance. Water stance could add +10 to MRR cap (not to MRR, to the cap) for each tier (so GM stance is +40). Then put the last +10 as part of the "water stance" ability in GMoF, Walking with Waves. It could add +3/6/10 to MRR cap when in water stance.

Theres lots of ways to even this out, from Monk Levels (preferable in my mind since it nips multiclass mutants in the bud), to Water stance (to seperate it from combo-ing with earth tanking), to other ideas like certain monk abilities (diamond body, diamond soul, timeless body, empty body, and perfect self all add +10 to MRR cap). Theres dozens of balanced approaches.

Just capping monks at 50 because you took aim at casters isnt one of them. Monks, specifically, have several defenses in pnp supposed to make them good vs casters. Rogues get none, evasion is it, the rest focus on vs traps. No reason monks should wind up below everyone else here. None except "ran out of time, had to make a sloppy general rule"... dont want to see that happen.

I agree with the Orb stuff though.

Nods. Obviously its a very rough writeup, but its seems easier to parallel the new existing system than invent spells to address some concern. I really think more build end-goal variety is healthy too. Hopefully it catches on. Glad it was understandable. Cheers.

[Thar]

Robe users will have the potential for up to 50 MRR over what they have on live. Casters have their own defenses from spells. If it turns out those are insufficient then my thought is that we would add high level spells that add to mitigation for casters and don't appear as clickies. We'd do that as part of a caster pass.

Sev~

and as a sorc how many spare spell slots do you have for extra high level spells? Add an enhancement in the tree that adds mrr with shield spell or armor spell and make them useful. 4 ac is nothing...

[Thar]

Why even keep DR around? It's an old mechanic that accomplishes the same thing as PRR but in an inelegant, poorly-scaling manner.

barbs should be given a % dr or prr boost in the class. it would help a lot.

[Pescha]

Why limiting MRR for wearing no armor so much ? 50 MRR is a joke.

Another slap in the face for monks...

ps. please consider keeping it at 100 MRR as you initially promised !

[Lifespawn]

Why limiting MRR for wearing no armor so much ? 50 MRR is a joke.

Another slap in the face for monks...

ps. please consider keeping it at 100 MRR as you initially promised !

you do realize that mrr on an evasion char makes them godmode right?

you do realize that mrr was made for armored chars that have no evasion a way to help with damage from aoe spamming enemy spells

personally i think robes should get zero mrr and light armor capped at 50 with an orb giving a 50mrr bonus that would circumvent giving monks mrr while still letting light armor rogues get some use and casters get a way to have mrr.

[Alternative]

Casters have their own defenses from spells.
Sev~

do you mean the resist energy spell that gives 30 resistance and is available to any class in wands/items/augments with even higher values than that? that also paladins have so it's not something unique to 'casters'

or do you mean protection from energy that gives up to 150 temp hit points against elements used BEFORE the resistance?

what other defenses?

[Rull]

do you mean the resist energy spell that gives 30 resistance and is available to any class in wands/items/augments with even higher values than that? that also paladins have so it's not something unique to 'casters'

or do you mean protection from energy that gives up to 150 temp hit points against elements used BEFORE the resistance?

what other defenses?

Fireshield.

Near-impossible to keep up with scrolls without losing major dps due to constantly having to swap out your weapon


Anyway, working with prr/mrr caps doesn't sound solid nor durable for the long term.
If you want heavy armored characterd to have more MRR than robes, make heavy armor give more MRR. Adjust the formula back to 150/150+x and you have also effectively scaled down MRR on robes without ugly caps.

[SirValentine]

We are planning to reduce the MRR caps; no armor will cap at 50 and light armor will cap at 100.

I haven't tested it on Lama, but I'm assuming that the Epic Destiny Feat, Guardian Angel, grants MRR as well as PRR, since it was previously said that existing sources of PRR would also give MRR?

Is Guardian Angel's 30-second mega-(P/M)RR bonus meant to be subject to these equipment-based MRR caps, or does it allow temporarily exceeding it?

[Rautis]

Why even keep DR around? It's an old mechanic that accomplishes the same thing as PRR but in an inelegant, poorly-scaling manner.

I think it has a very different flavor than percentage mitigation. While effects of PRR are most visible on high damage hits DR has a considerable impact on lower damage attacks. In heroic content DR is still somewhat balanced and offers great additional protection against frequently occuring low damage attacks such as archers. In Epics build based Damage Reduction stops increasing while attacks get much more dangerous. There it could scale better. Shadow Guardian makes DR very relevant again.

[slarden]

Robe users will have the potential for up to 50 MRR over what they have on live. Casters have their own defenses from spells. If it turns out those are insufficient then my thought is that we would add high level spells that add to mitigation for casters and don't appear as clickies. We'd do that as part of a caster pass.

Sev~

Perhaps epic mage armor would be a place to add a buff. I've never taken that spell as an epic feat, but I might consider it if it provided some MRR.

[slarden]

I haven't tested it on Lama, but I'm assuming that the Epic Destiny Feat, Guardian Angel, grants MRR as well as PRR, since it was previously said that existing sources of PRR would also give MRR?

Is Guardian Angel's 30-second mega-(P/M)RR bonus meant to be subject to these equipment-based MRR caps, or does it allow temporarily exceeding it?

Not all sources of PRR are providing an MRR benefit on Lamannia

For example, epic divine past lifes provide no MRR benefit.

I don't know if they just haven't changed this or it's working as intended. Still guardian's ring alone is giving me close to 20% damage mitigation and considering I had 0% previously I can't complain.

[BigErkyKid]

This is from another thread, but I think that it is relevant to the update:

Harper does nothing for sorcerer EK nor will it do much more for wizards as you can get strength high enough as it is. It only makes it easier for a wizard EK to pursue a DC based EK which is already possible and shouldn't be in my opinion to begin with. Not that most EK build will have room for harper anyway if they want to use their racial tree or the meta magic reduction / extra dcs or wizard spell like abilities. So maybe 15 hp and 6 extra melee power out of all of it.

Too many mechanics started and abandoned.

It is the same with crafting.

The problem is that some enhancement trees, builds and classes are working with ancient premises for balance.

Doing 1 at a time means that balancing will take years and by then who knows what power creep will have done to the game.

What the game needs is a big wipe of old systems, to settle for a few meaningful and lore-coherent options that scale well.

Giving a +1 to something is an excellent way to ensure that power creep will turn it into a joke. Scale things by character and class level, make them so that it is easy to adjust.

Multiplying by melee power is a fail, since a lot of abilities give very few dices of damage and as others have said with power creep they have been rendered useless. You would need to multiply them by something which is not tied to overall damge, otherwise it is not possible to bring them to a useful level without giving an obscene amount of damage to melees from melee power.

Ultimately, the problem is how to prevent power creep from eating the game. So far, it has destroyed heroics and now it is starting to eat epics. Low level epics are already being rolf stomped on EE by low level characters.

Devs, I think you guys need to start thinking how to offer different viable opportunities without handing out constant buffs. I think it is impossible without nerfing, because it is obvious that there exist builds nowadays that trivialize content.

[-Avalon-]

We don't want a PRR system where characters have to be all-in or might as well give up on PRR completely.

So, what you are saying, is that you do not want an "All-or-Nothing" system to combat the "All-or-Nothing" system?

Believe me, that is what you have right now... your currently existing "All-or-Nothing" system has a name: Evasion.

By definition, an "All-or-Nothing" system is a 1 or 0, on or off, right? Well, why do you see so many "PJ Builds"? Because players KNOW to fight in EE content, you absolutely NEED evasion 99% of the time. This means that players must incorporate one of the following into their builds:

1) 2 lvls of Rogue
2) 2 lvls of Monk
3) 9 lvls of Ranger
4) 20 lvls of Bard (due to Swashbuckler)
5) Stay in an ED that includes Evasion (highly limiting as well)

So, for any "non-'mostly ranger' build" or "non-pure bard" build, this typically means mandatory inclusion of 2 rogue, or 2 monk.

How about we make PRR so that to have more than 0, you MUST have 2 Fighter, or 2 Paladin (mandatory)... think anyone would complain? I mean, that is pure balance to equal out Evasion... (and yes, exaggeration, I know, but it is to prove a point)

PRR to balance out and fight against Evasion must be scaled so that people who CAN and DO use it, have little or no PRR, and I don't mean "little" as in "Might as well be none", but rather enough to get 10% damage reduction, or something like that... not where 100 is a HUGE amount, and then people who really DO want and use Heavy Armor + Tower Shields only get a small increase to that, but have to skip Evasion completely. THAT is not fair OR balanced. That is giving people with the "All-or-Nothing" ability of Evasion 2 cakes: one to eat and one to keep as well; while leaving Heavy Armor people with a choice of having or eating the cake... I cannot see how the developers would not understand this about the game and why we see so many builds using NO armor...

"why buy the cow when the milk is free" comes to mind, why wear heavy armor when you can get 50% damage reduction through PRR, Evasion, pretty much the same AC (or high enough to get 60-70% defense), incorporeal (through monk), displacement clickies, etc... what would Heavy Armor add? Oh yeah, 25% more damage reduction at the cost of Evasion... /smh, not a fair trade-off at all.

EDIT: and that is not to even mention Improved Evasion...