Master's Blitz Feedback, round two

[Monkey_Archer]

So far, I've been able to test all the melee destinies on kobolds, and ran EE temple of vol with what I believe to be the strongest one (Divine crusader).

Overall I'd say destiny balance is in the best spot yet. Not perfect, but getting closer.

Divine crusader is by far the strongest melee destiny now, but that should be obvious since everything got nerfed except for Zeal of righteousness. This may need attention.

I like the position Legendary Dreadnought is in now. Its still strong, but not the unstoppable killing machine that it is on live. Definitely feels like an actual tactical destiny now. If you have a tactics based build the LD benefits outside of blitz really shine with the new melee power levels, rather then being eclipsed by raw damage.

Fury I'd expect to be underrated for a while. For builds that do not have tactics, this seems to be at least competitive with LD.

Shadowdancer is interesting. My rogue build doesn't really take advantage of everything shadowdancer has to offer, but it does seem like for certain melee builds this might actually be viable.

[Grailhawk]

Divine crusader is by far the strongest melee destiny now, but that should be obvious since everything got nerfed except for Zeal of righteousness. This may need attention.

I haven't played with blitz yet on Lamannia but math still puts +50% damage a head of Zeal's ~34% damage (+15.7% Damage, +15.7% Doublestrike Average over 4 minutes. 1.157*1.157=1.3386). If you are correct then you are saying its impossible to realistically maintain a 7 stack of blitz?

From what I'm seeing it looks more like they have balanced the two ability around each other a lot better then before.

[Monkey_Archer]

I haven't played with blitz yet on Lamannia but math still puts +50% damage a head of Zeal's ~34% damage (+15.7% Damage, +15.7% Doublestrike Average over 4 minutes. 1.157*1.157=1.3386). If you are correct then you are saying its impossible to realistically maintain a 7 stack of blitz?

From what I'm seeing it looks more like they have balanced the two ability around each other a lot better then before.

I base that statement on the fact that DC has significant AOE damage and self healing advantages, as well as the fact that zeal multiplies other sources of melee power, while blitz does not.

A THF/SWF/S&B blitzer will be at 52 melee power pre blitz and 102 post blitz, so it technically only provides a ~33% increase. And thats ignoring the time it takes to stack.

TWF will still prefer blitz though.

[Thayion516]

So Blitz has been nerfed and now they nerf the total amount of melee power in ED's... is there any reason at all to be a melee based character now?

Stoner81.

Blitz was the only thing able to keep up with the caster's endlessly chaining missile for thousands a volley and the monk hers sitting 50 meters away and launching 10,000 point per arrow fury shot vollies. This nerf to Blitz is out of context to the actual place it is in game. What are melee DPS spose to take to come close to light AE FVS dropping 6-8000 point AE nukes at endgame?

Blitz is the only thing keeping melee alive for fun play. What is my role now? Soften them up so the Sorc can frost lances them for 50,000?

I DO agree that melee needed a buff, but giving them a relatively small melee buff in comparison to the other playstyles, THEN removing the only real option to compete is the wrong thing to do.

Blitz should stay at 100MP imo. Such a heavy handed nerf is just further crippling melee.

Guys, don't be rejoicing over +60MP. Make no mistake, melee still will be miles behind Magic and Range. Blitz IS the only thing that comes close to what they can do on live.

And we are loosing it... Good Job.

[Pescha]

Blitz was the only thing able to keep up with the caster's endlessly chaining missile for thousands a volley and the monk hers sitting 50 meters away and launching 10,000 point per arrow fury shot vollies. This nerf to Blitz is out of context to the actual place it is in game. What are melee DPS spose to take to come close to light AE FVS dropping 6-8000 point AE nukes at endgame?

Blitz is the only thing keeping melee alive for fun play. What is my role now? Soften them up so the Sorc can frost lances them for 50,000?

I DO agree that melee needed a buff, but giving them a relatively small melee buff in comparison to the other playstyles, THEN removing the only real option to compete is the wrong thing to do.

Blitz should stay at 100MP imo. Such a heavy handed nerf is just further crippling melee.

Guys, don't be rejoicing over +60MP. Make no mistake, melee still will be miles behind Magic and Range. Blitz IS the only thing that comes close to what they can do on live.

And we are loosing it... Good Job.

Instead of buffs they ask for nerfs even though they want to keep up with shiradis and monkchers yet still they are asking for nerfs... maybe it is fate who knows at least they get the challenge they deserve.

[Cetus]

Wow - so melees, especially blitzing melees, just got defecated on.


Now...in LD - thats 6 cores + 8 leves, with 3 melee power per level = 42

Now the fighting style feats give a grand total of 10 = 52

and full blitz = 50

Total of 102 melee power - is that right? versus 250 right now on live.

That's a 60% reduction in maximum damage output.

Sev, you completely ignored the fact that the blitz charging mechanic is absolute rubbish, and instead decided to further cut the damage.

[Wizza]

Not sure anyone actually complained that the Melee Power was the problem. The mechanic on how to stack it and keep it up was the issue.

[Monkey_Archer]

Wow - so melees, especially blitzing melees, just got defecated on.

Depends on how you look at the game. My 3rd life paladin is still making a joke out of the new orchard quests. No I still cant compete with the broken builds, but I can effortlessly destroy the new endgame content regardless. No need for past lives, no need for new gear.

If anything, this new round of nerfs gives me hope that next update will follow a similar pattern for ranged/caster builds, and we might actually see some challenge return to this game.

[Severlin]

Some thoughts:

~ Play with Blitz, give us some feedback. It is easy to tweak the Melee Power.

~ Blitz now works on bosses and in groups so I don't think it's fair to compare the damage directly to the version on live which is only good for trash mobs. Some of our toughest encounters include enemies that last long enough that, on live, cause the blitz stacks to fall off.

~ Blitz with its PRR lines up well with the other EDs. Probably slightly behind Divine Crusader and slightly in front of the others.

~ If melee is truly behind ranged and casting then the good thing about the system as it stands on Lamannia is that the numbers are easy to tweak across the board. We will be looking closely at feedback for just that.

Sev~

[Cetus]

Some thoughts:

~ Blitz now works on bosses and in groups so I don't think it's fair to compare the damage directly to the version on live which is only good for trash mobs. Some of our toughest encounters include enemies that last long enough that, on live, cause the blitz stacks to fall off.

~ Blitz with its PRR lines up well with the other EDs. Probably slightly behind Divine Crusader and slightly in front of the others.


Sev~

I have a problem with these two justifications, here's why:

1. We never wanted blitz to be more effective against bosses. It was effective against bosses which had adequate trash to feed blitz, the other ones simply made blitz ineffective. This was good - the ability had a niche - trash. I remember being in fury when FOT was around because it was simply better sustanined damage against all the bosses there.

If you wanted better boss damage - then you should improve fury of the wild or something, blitz doesn't need help in being relevant against bosses too.


2. Forget PRR, blitz should be an offensive ability. If you want defense, go to sentinel. I'm not happy with being forced to lose damage in order to get back some sort of defensive perk.

[Severlin]

I have a problem with these two justifications, here's why:

1. We never wanted blitz to be more effective against bosses. It was effective against bosses which had adequate trash to feed blitz, the other ones simply made blitz ineffective. This was good - the ability had a niche - trash. I remember being in fury when FOT was around because it was simply better sustanined damage against all the bosses there.

We have player feedback that the previous incarnation was problematic and discouraged grouping. That's the top reason for the change in how it builds up.

If you wanted better boss damage - then you should improve fury of the wild or something, blitz doesn't need help in being relevant against bosses too.

We want the Epic Destinies balanced, but we also didn't want so much of melee's damage coming from one source.

2. Forget PRR, blitz should be an offensive ability. If you want defense, go to sentinel. I'm not happy with being forced to lose damage in order to get back some sort of defensive perk.

Blitz has always had a defensive component to it. The defensive component is a perk, just like Divine Crusader has perks. The only reason I bring it up isn't to somehow cheat players out of damage, but because the perks of Divine Crusader were used in the balance discussion.

As I've said, we are watching the test server and the feedback closely to see what is needed for the next round of adjustments.

Sev~

[Thayion516]

I think the new Charge Mechanic is better then before. It is useful on Trash AND Single target mobs. That is better.

Now we need VIDEOS guys. Screen Shots. Combat Logs. Controlled Damage Outputs and Charge scenarios that both Work and Fail.

If Sev really is watching it. Lets give his something to watch. Give him Feedback.

I will advocate 10 Stacks = +100MP is balanced for the ability.

[Thayion516]

Instead of buffs they ask for nerfs even though they want to keep up with shiradis and monkchers yet still they are asking for nerfs... maybe it is fate who knows at least they get the challenge they deserve.

Do you think it was us Blitzers who were asking to be nerfed by -50% effectiveness? I sure did not. I was OK with some balance, moderate reduction, and ok with the Charge changes.

But this is too much...

[Bridge_Dweller]

I will advocate 10 Stacks = +100MP is balanced for the ability.

I'd rather levels//EDs = 75ish MP with Blitz giving another 75. Split the difference.

[Cetus]

We have player feedback that the previous incarnation was problematic and discouraged grouping. That's the top reason for the change in how it builds up.



We want the Epic Destinies balanced, but we also didn't want so much of melee's damage coming from one source.



Blitz has always had a defensive component to it. The defensive component is a perk, just like Divine Crusader has perks. The only reason I bring it up isn't to somehow cheat players out of damage, but because the perks of Divine Crusader were used in the balance discussion.

As I've said, we are watching the test server and the feedback closely to see what is needed for the next round of adjustments.

Sev~

Well, it sounds like you guys already made up your mind.

[Pescha]

This is just wrong...

[Severlin]

Well, it sounds like you guys already made up your mind.

We have already made many adjustments to lots of things based on player feedback. Dialing back the Melee Power is entirely based on player feedback. We are eager to hear about play experiences, see some numbers thrown around, and see if a group with many Blitzers still feels too powerful like it did the last build.

(I am sharing our design thoughts because the feedback from players is they like dev feedback when we can give it.)

Sev~

[Pescha]

We have already made many adjustments to lots of things based on player feedback. Dialing back the Melee Power is entirely based on player feedback. We are eager to hear about play experiences, see some numbers thrown around, and see if a group with many Blitzers still feels too powerful like it did the last build.

(I am sharing our design thoughts because the feedback from players is they like dev feedback when we can give it.)

Sev~

If you are still Intending to to make adjustments to masters blitz based on player feedback (3-5 people) as you imply can you just get rid of masters blitz instead ? It Would Pain me to Even look at it, that is for sure.

[Cetus]

We have already made many adjustments to lots of things based on player feedback. Dialing back the Melee Power is entirely based on player feedback. We are eager to hear about play experiences, see some numbers thrown around, and see if a group with many Blitzers still feels too powerful like it did the last build.

(I am sharing our design thoughts because the feedback from players is they like dev feedback when we can give it.)

Sev~

Why would I even bother charging up a moment that gives me 50 melee power now, when it used to give 250 and relied on some kind of skill to keep refreshed?

Now, I can auto attack a statue and go AFK with a fully charged blitz. This is just a further dumbing down of the game.

Personally, I'm disappointed because A) The fighter class now does objectively less damage than paladins. Hell, this harper tree gives everybody access to melee power, while real melee trees LIKE kensei gives a meaningless +1 to damage for 2 AP. This is ridiculously absurd. B) Ranged damage from blitz has also been nerfed to oblivion (for now I guess), and the best archers should have holy sword now C) A tree in the "divine" sphere is doing better damage than a "martial" tree. Why do we have these names again, they don't seem to mean much at all now. Divine crusader is supposed to be a great hybrid tree, not better than a purely melee tree such as LD.

[Thayion516]

Come on Cetus. The Man is asking you for what your good at. Give him some numbers. Because if you dont, I fear we are all sunk.