Master's Blitz Feedback, round two

[Pescha]

They shouldn't be... It's a bad idea. Epic Moments should be powerful but limited duration. They could add more DPS in other LD abilities if they think limiting blitz hurts the LD destiny too much.

Blitz is probably the most powerful tier 6 however it isn't OP as it requires skill to utilize it properly. Although some builds do have it easier than others when it comes to getting few stacks and keeping them.

In a group without any one being carried and everyone monitoring the kill count during quest you need to either plan ahead for the right moment to push the button or have the survivability to break off group and get your first few hits.

Blitz isn't the problem, people whining about it are the problem.

[droid327]

dodge based melees (I didn't know that's a thing, but so be it),

Are any melees *not* Dodge based right now? That was the whole point of Armor Up...

And then I haven't even considered the interaction between advancing blows and purple dragon focus, which is an incredibly powerful defensive combination for a grand total of 3 AP.

Err...how does +1 damage on crit have anything to do with 15 temp HP when you use an AB?

[Pescha]

Are any melees *not* Dodge based right now? That was the whole point of Armor Up...



Err...how does +1 damage on crit have anything to do with 15 temp HP when you use an AB?

I think advancing blows is considered a action boost which works pretty well in conjunction with purple dragon focus... I have never tested it so far but i think he could be right.

[Zoda]

In a group without any one being carried and everyone monitoring the kill count during quest you need to either plan ahead for the right moment to push the button or have the survivability to break off group and get your first few hits.

Blitz isn't the problem, people whining about it are the problem.

Agreed. But I still rather see it getting nerfed than buffed (and I consider the current Lama version a HUGE buff). I'm 100% fine with the live version of it.

I think advancing blows is considered a action boost which works pretty well in conjunction with purple dragon focus... I have never tested it so far but i think he could be right.

Exactly. I haven't used it in in u22, but I doubt there was any change on that front.

[Seikojin]

Well keep in mind a couple things about the dev's intention:

-They don't want to create a situation where Blitzers have to change their gameplay style while Blitzing in a group - ie, Blitz needs to be fully usable while just "playing normally"

-They want LD to be a viable melee option but not eclipse other melee destinies

-They're cool with the idea of LD having a fully sustainable Epic Moment, as long as the destiny is balanced overall

So, to that end, I think on-hit Blitz building is here to stay (and I support that mechanic, for the reasons the devs adopted it). Maybe the 10% mark needs to be tweaked, but probably not - people aren't reporting problems *keeping* their Blitz, only keeping it maxed, which, sad violin...

Blitz is going to be the highest DPS melee destiny - that's its portfolio. It lacks any defense like Sentinel, it lacks any selfhealing or debuffing like Crusader. It's sustained DPS, whereas FotW is burst DPS (and is also "sustainable" through an entire quest since it recharges). So yes, if you have a full squad of blitzers, they're going to smack down huge-bag-of-HP bosses the most efficiently. But with naught but Cocoon for heals, the question is how they'll stay alive themselves.

Honestly, I think current Blitz OP-ness (heh, p-ness) is more a symptom of the overreach of Melee Power. If it wasn't for the huge across-the-board boost all melees are getting, then Blitz would just take you from good to great, not from great to God-mode.

Well, I don't mind the build up mechanic of Lam either. I think however they should remove the decrement timer on the stacks and have an overall moment timer. I think having it have 2 to 3 minutes of blitz time is enough. 2 for tactical reasons, 3 for casual reasons.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

definitely needs to have the prr version.


when activating blitz you gain 1 stack every time you you successfully use a tactical ability (imp/trip, imp/sunder, stunning blow, hamstring, imp feint, slicing blow, sap, stunning fist (i grudgingly list that one...)). improved sunder, slicing blow, and sap help give builds/players with lower dcs competitive blitzing ability due to the debuff of improved sunder and the no save nature of slicing blow and sap. also gives players a choice: spend more feats to potentially maintain more stacks of blitz, or spend those feats on other stuff?

that helps limit who will be able to use this ability (only one of those feats a monkcher can use with ranged is improved feint i think, but not sure never tried it) since some builds priorities and feat allotment will not allow them to take many of the tactical feats, and even if they can they may not be able to use them effectively.

additionally since you cant actually stun a redname it would improve the value of improved sunder, slicing blow, and feint (im assuming bosses can be feinted if you have sufficient dc?) to help maintain blitz at moderate stacks against rednames (unless a stun can be successful on a boss without actually stunning it, which im ok with too).

this helps put some of the tactical emphasis back into dreadnaught and fighters, who can take all of these tactical feats (at a cost, no way you could fit two fighting styles and several tactical feats despite their feat pool), without completely screwing over rangers monks barbs pallies and rogues who should be able to take some of those feats if they deem it meaningful enough.

the fact that it would only be on a *successful* usage emphasizes actually having either a meaningful dc or a feat to spend on slicing blow (which needs to be improved) which means not every blitz build will have it all, keeping average number of stacks in check but still allowing it to be maintained to clear trash or dps a boss provided you invest in it. also, keep combat expertise prereq where applicable.

with this method i think a slight bump from +100mp at 10 stacks would be reasonable but not necessary.


what was on lamma was a bad idea compared to live. at least on live there is an opportunity cost, which in meaningful situations does require team work. in non meaningful situations blitz is not needed at all ever. having a 10% chance to build stacks is bad for several reasons.

1) the player doesnt really have control over the ability. you can argue that the player can switch to twf/swf for more hit and more chances to build a stack, or use carnifex for 60 seconds every quest, but i think this is clearly unfair and undesirable.

2) with the short durations of stacks, many times you might get unlucky and run out of blitz before building a second stack. i am not interested in having an ability which relies totally on luck every single time i use it.

3) if the only way to lose blitz is to not get a 2nd stack in the first 10 seconds after activating it (this is a pointlessly annoying development), then...why would any melee ever not use blitz? please provide me with a situation where you would actually consider using blitz in the first place but might decide to use something else, where you would have ANY real reason to not choose blitz with this implementation. currently that situation is raids which may not have sufficient trash to maintain a blitz. so you might switch to fury or crusader for obvious reasons because of the on kill mechanic. if blitz charges for free there will be no reason to not use it.

blitz as on lamma will be random. it will be generic. it will be boring. it will be frustrating. and it will be too easy.

[Qhualor]

is Blitz the only epic moment that is continuous and isn't subject to a duration timer despite the description? ive never tried all of them, but I know quite a few actually stop after 15-30 seconds and are restricted to a 1 minute to 10 minute cooldown before able to use them again.

[BDog77]

is Blitz the only epic moment that is continuous and isn't subject to a duration timer despite the description?

Yes.

But this, this is probably the funniest thing I have ever read about Blitz right here

Blitz is probably the most powerful tier 6 however it isn't OP as it requires skill to utilize it properly.

'Splain to me about all this skill again. Skill to hit the MOB at just the right moment? Skill to know when the MOB is within 1 swing of dead? Skill to race around and complain loudly when someone else kills a MOB? Skill building your character? (actually, this might actually use a skill, reading).

Thanks for the laugh, though, I appreciate it.

[maddmatt70]

Since the other one got closed. I'd like to hear some pros and cons about the mechanic itself compared to its version on live, the melee/ranged power number can be tweaked, I don't think that's the important question here.

Pros:
um???

Cons:
-Available to every build regardless of it having tactical feats or not (you could technically charge it with only sunder and trip, but if you do you deserve it!)
-Available during boss fights for the full party, making raids way too easy (and spellcasters by no means competitive dps aside from Joy)
-With the option to get 30 prr out of it and its new availability during boss fights even tanks will pick it over Sentinel for most raids (I'm sure I will, and I tank as many e/e raids as one can nowdays on Argo)
-It's technically a passive that takes like 30 seconds to turn on (if you have doubts about how fast it charges, I can upload a video of cleaving the test kobolds)

I think releasing it on live in this form would be a trainwreck.

The Lammania form is an improvement over the live form of Blitz. Hopefully they tweak it some more, but really I just want the devs to remove it from the game and make the LD epic moment on par with Fury of the Wild and Grandmaster of Flowers which are what epic moments should be.

[Pescha]

The Lammania form is an improvement over the live form of Blitz. Hopefully they tweak it some more, but really I just want the devs to remove it from the game and make the LD epic moment on par with Fury of the Wild and Grandmaster of Flowers which are what epic moments should be.

If they intend to make it on par with fury of the wild then i demand dreadnought to have the same adrenaline overload clicky as well (for example).

[Wizza]

If they intend to make it on par with fury of the wild then i demand dreadnought to have the same adrenaline overload clicky as well (for example).

Nosense. Even without Blitz, LD is a strong Destiny. Lay waste, Momentum swing are considered must haves even if you are not in LD. Pulverizer is great, Extra action boost is great. Anvil too. The passives are probably the best passives among all the other Epic Destinies.

Master's Blitz is just the icing on the cake.

[Zoda]

The Lammania form is an improvement over the live form of Blitz.

If by improvement you mean it's way more powerful than on live, yes, you are correct.

Nosense. Even without Blitz, LD is a strong Destiny. Lay waste, Momentum swing are considered must haves even if you are not in LD. Pulverizer is great, Extra action boost is great. Anvil too. The passives are probably the best passives among all the other Epic Destinies.

Master's Blitz is just the icing on the cake.

Indeed it is a strong destiny even without blitz. If it wasn't, melees would switch to whatever else destiny for raids where they can't blitz. But they don't.

[Eth]

Nosense. Even without Blitz, LD is a strong Destiny. Lay waste, Momentum swing are considered must haves even if you are not in LD. Pulverizer is great, Extra action boost is great. Anvil too. The passives are probably the best passives among all the other Epic Destinies.

Master's Blitz is just the icing on the cake.

+1W while action boost are active. +50% helpless damage.
20 second cooldown on action boosts instead of 30.
20 fort save clicky (awesome in EE deathwyrm and WGU).
25% damage reduction clicky.
Unstoppable (basically an 'Extra Harpers Pin' with shorter cooldown).
+6 Seeker damage.
almost permanent +5 damage with a good crit. range (so basically everyone nowadays).
.5W extra for power attack
+1 crit. multi on 19-20

I prefer LD over Fury 99% of the time even if I'm not intending to blitz.

[Nightmanis]

+1W while action boost are active. +50% helpless damage.
20 second cooldown on action boosts instead of 30.
20 fort save clicky (awesome in EE deathwyrm and WGU).
25% damage reduction clicky.
Unstoppable (basically an 'Extra Harpers Pin' with shorter cooldown).
+6 Seeker damage.
almost permanent +5 damage with a good crit. range (so basically everyone nowadays).
.5W extra for power attack
+1 crit. multi on 19-20

I prefer LD over Fury 99% of the time even if I'm not intending to blitz.

Combat brute and the reduced cool down on boosts alone are worth running in LD on most builds. For a while I was even taking the damage most from LD just to have more boosts chaining together.

[Nightmanis]

Just to suggest it:

Why not remove both the prr and dodge versions, and only allow a version with no defensive benefit. That way it's not over stepping any boundaries on the other destinies. Yes dread still will grant some nice defensive buffs, but now blitz won't.

[Zoda]

Just to suggest it:

Why not remove both the prr and dodge versions, and only allow a version with no defensive benefit. That way it's not over stepping any boundaries on the other destinies. Yes dread still will grant some nice defensive buffs, but now blitz won't.

The problem is the new mechanic not the 30 prr...

Here is the thing: a certain group of players claim that blitz is gamebreaking/unfun/whatever, so they ask for nerf. The response is that devs double every melee's damage output, while taking away a tiny bit from blitzers AND making it available to everyone, EVERY TIME, this time without any skill restriction (if it was so easy to blitz, certain players wouldn't cry for kills in groups). Okay, let less capable players blitz too, fine, I hate it, but I can swallow that, but turning every single raidboss fight into a 2 minutes cakewalk is wrong on way too many levels. What's next? Multiplying raidboss hp by ten just to compensate for blitz? But oh hey, then other destinies are suddenly not competitive again, lets nerf blitz by buffing it again? Imagine a raid like FOT or Fire on Thunder Peak where every melee gets 10 stacks of blitz nonstop.

In case if it's not crystal clear to anyone, I'm not speaking up against a nerf on blitz, but against a major buff. Trust me, we won't notice the difference in melee power or the extra prr, what we will notic is the damage output of 8-12 blitzers melting e/e raidbosses.

This game doesn't have a whole lot of content that the best players can't sleepwalk through, this change would remove the remaining ones, and I don't see how is that beneficial to casuals either.

[bloodnose13]

Master's Blitz: Tier 6 Epic Moment. 3 minute cooldown.

10% chance on any melee hit to get 1 stack of Incoming Blitz!

When you have 50 Blitz charges you may activate Master's Blitz: You gain 50 charges of Master's Blitz. Each charge grants +3% melee and range power. You loose one charge every 2 seconds.

While Master's Blitz is active you gain +15% Insight bonus to dodge and +25 Insight bonus to PPR.

I would be ok with this. 100 seconds of blitzing which gradually counts down (aka fatigue) with 80 seconds to try and build it back up (aka determination).

Honestly, this looks like what it should have been to begin with... or something close.

well kinda like parts of this idea, but i would change it a bit:

Master's Blitz: Tier 6 Epic Moment. 3 minute cooldown. ----Ok

5% chance on any melee hit to get 1 stack of Incoming Blitz! ----Ok i think but it may still give charges too often 5% may be needed

When you have 50 Blitz charges you may activate Master's Blitz: You gain Master's Blitz for 30 seconds, in those 30 seconds each hit gives you charge, each charge grants +1 melee and range power, after first 30 second effect ends, you stop gaining charges, and they start decaying one every 4 seconds, caps at 50. ---- the big change i think, it would make it less overpowered and not that powerfull for everyone accross the board.

no defense bonuses. its a dps ability not a survival boost.

in this way effect would not be best for everyone, as building a charge to use it would take time, and then building enough charges to matter, in this design a haste action boost would be very helpfull in building up charges, so again it would not work perfectly for everyone.

[Nightmanis]

The problem is the new mechanic not the 30 prr...

Here is the thing: a certain group of players claim that blitz is gamebreaking/unfun/whatever, so they ask for nerf. The response is that devs double every melee's damage output, while taking away a tiny bit from blitzers AND making it available to everyone, EVERY TIME, this time without any skill restriction (if it was so easy to blitz, certain players wouldn't cry for kills in groups). Okay, let less capable players blitz too, fine, I hate it, but I can swallow that, but turning every single raidboss fight into a 2 minutes cakewalk is wrong on way too many levels. What's next? Multiplying raidboss hp by ten just to compensate for blitz? But oh hey, then other destinies are suddenly not competitive again, lets nerf blitz by buffing it again? Imagine a raid like FOT or Fire on Thunder Peak where every melee gets 10 stacks of blitz nonstop.

In case if it's not crystal clear to anyone, I'm not speaking up against a nerf on blitz, but against a major buff. Trust me, we won't notice the difference in melee power or the extra prr, what we will notic is the damage output of 8-12 blitzers melting e/e raidbosses.

This game doesn't have a whole lot of content that the best players can't sleepwalk through, this change would remove the remaining ones, and I don't see how is that beneficial to casuals either.

A logical argument, not going to disagree. I'm happy they got rid of the charging element, and in my opinion if you simply did that, and removed any defensive benefit of blitz while retaining the on kill mechanic.

We could keep the on hit mechanic, but let's reduce it to 1%. I'm not fond of it but it's a small median suggestion.

[Qhualor]

The problem is the new mechanic not the 30 prr...

Here is the thing: a certain group of players claim that blitz is gamebreaking/unfun/whatever, so they ask for nerf. The response is that devs double every melee's damage output, while taking away a tiny bit from blitzers AND making it available to everyone, EVERY TIME, this time without any skill restriction (if it was so easy to blitz, certain players wouldn't cry for kills in groups). Okay, let less capable players blitz too, fine, I hate it, but I can swallow that, but turning every single raidboss fight into a 2 minutes cakewalk is wrong on way too many levels. What's next? Multiplying raidboss hp by ten just to compensate for blitz? But oh hey, then other destinies are suddenly not competitive again, lets nerf blitz by buffing it again? Imagine a raid like FOT or Fire on Thunder Peak where every melee gets 10 stacks of blitz nonstop.

In case if it's not crystal clear to anyone, I'm not speaking up against a nerf on blitz, but against a major buff. Trust me, we won't notice the difference in melee power or the extra prr, what we will notic is the damage output of 8-12 blitzers melting e/e raidbosses.

This game doesn't have a whole lot of content that the best players can't sleepwalk through, this change would remove the remaining ones, and I don't see how is that beneficial to casuals either.

If you think Blitz is a 2 minute cakewalk on bosses, you should check out a barbarian using UF. Sick DPS.

[Zoda]

If you think Blitz is a 2 minute cakewalk on bosses, you should check out a barbarian using UF. Sick DPS.

I bet it is with the free 95 melee power everyone just got, it might be stronger for those 30 seconds, but still waaaaay worse in the rest of the 5 minute it has to wait to get it again. (and if you think a barb is sick dps you haven't checked out the pally changes, another topic that may worth some discussion lol)

I wonder if 30 seconds boss fights is what the aim is here though (regardless it might just be the reality). I greatly disagree with the free 95 melee power hand out just because why not as well, but that probably belongs to another thread.