The Official Why Aren't you Adding Ranged Power to EDs That Are Bad at Ranged Thread?

[Throwdown]

The amount of design work, study and due diligence that would be required to make intelligent decisions on balance would kick this release back into the holidays. Haphazardly throwing ranged power into EDs without the background work would probably make things worse.

Sev~

It isn't haphazard and there is due diligence: all of your players and the smaller group of people who build and make spreadsheets about this stuff who can tell exactly how much to add. It's not like you guys have a perfect or flawless track record for this stuff anyway.

Ranged builds outside of prime destinies (LD and Fury for bows, Shiradi and DC and maybe LD for throwers) are variably 50-100% behind in DPS from the above mentioned good destinies.

So: add 8 Ranged Power per core Destiny ability to all destinies that are not LD or Fury. You might question why to do this with Divine Crusader which already quite strong: Manyshot and 10K both have Doubleshot debuffs. This makes all the aspects of Doubleshot in DC very marginally useful to Ranged characters using bows, and Throwers using 10K stars. If you need a compromise, only add 4 Ranged Power to DC.

Shiradi needs a way to boost DPS on red names anyway, so I don't think this is OP. If you do, do the same as DC and have Shiradi only give 4 Ranged Power per core.

What's wrong with that? Just do it and let us test it on Lama. You don't need to take until Christmas for that.

If you gimp a bunch of ranged builds by buffing melee way up for 3-6 months, you're going to lose players, period.

[blerkington]

No you're the guy who misread. LD already has Ranged Power added to it from Blitz. I explicitly stated to add Ranged Power for the sake up bringing up other destinies to Fury and LD. I'm not sure if you actually had reading comprehension issues with that or you're trying to get me on some weird technicality but I'm tabling it for discussion. It's not true, and it wasn't then. If it was worded confusingly for you sorry, but no one else seems to be having this problem you are. And I've already stated (twice now) that wasn't what I meant.

Also, with Severlin, there's at least 4-6 people commenting currently in this thread.

Regarding "slimy" advocacy for changes to the game, I understand that you run a ranger in Shiradi. Hence your desire to see Shiradi get Melee Power. Does that make you slimy? I don't think so. But suggesting others are because they have other builds they like and advocate for is definitely slimy. Shame on you.

Anyway, I think Shiradi should get melee as well, as it's mostly useless for melee. I dont understand why Shiradi procs don't work with melee attacks, it's really silly.

But aside from your preference to see Shiradi be better for your Ranger, I don't really see you making any sort of argument for why other destinies should not get Ranged Power. You argue something about inflation, but really, that's moot. Inflation means the total quantity of something is increased. But, as long as other destinies do not usurp LD/Fury/DC in DPS for ranged, that isn't inflation. It's simply allowing more flexibility in build choices. Inflation would be adding eough Ranged power that suddenly running in something like Fatesinger was actually better ranged DPS than the current highest DPS ED choice.

Lastly, the OP is no longer on the DDO forums for reasons I am not allowed to talk about due to Community Guidelines. So you're stuck with me.

Hi,

I don't normally have reading comprehension issues, but although I sometimes get things wrong I think 'add ranged power to every ED except Fury' is pretty unambiguous. If you didn't actually mean adding it on top of what it already gets only from Blitz stacks (rather than both getting ED core bonuses and then more again from stacks of Blitz, which is how I took it) I'm fine with us agreeing that is what you really meant. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

I also actually didn't mean you when I mentioned slimy self-interest. I was referring to some of the worse stuff going on in the various melee power threads. My own advocacy for shiradi is partly motivated by self interest, yes, but I tell myself it's less slimy because that destiny is on the underpowered rather than the overpowered side, for bow users and melees anyway. There is a big difference between asking to be raised up from down low versus wanting others to be kept down, and that is what I meant when I used that adjective. If you don't see the difference and think less of me for using it that way, so be it.

I don't actually think my character need any more power than it has; it's by no means all-powerful, and its DPS and many other things about it would make a true power gamer laugh, but it's enough for me to contribute in endgame content and solo quests on EE as it is. I advocated for some very modest improvements to shiradi to keep it falling any further behind than it already is.

The two things that really concern me here are the proxy nerf, in which my character becomes less able to contribute as others builds become significantly more powerful, and loss of challenge from the game.

Anyway, I'd be happy for most other primal and martial destinies to get ranged power. In most cases I don't think it would make them that much more attractive for ranged builds. I can't think of any game breaking reasons why GMOF, Shadowdancer and Primal Avatar shouldn't get it. Someone who knows ranged builds very well might see some clever opportunity there that I don't, but if so it's up to them to speak up.

I don't see the point of adding ranged power to the divine and arcane sphere ones, although I recognise your argument about the drudgery of levelling off destinies. If that was going to be done though, it needs to be done more evenly, so that the destinies currently missing out on either ranged or melee power, or both, got it too.

What makes me nervous about adding ranged power to Fury and LD (edit: not Blitz) is that they are already strong, and they already received melee power boosts too. My basic difficulty is there needs to be a baseline for balancing all of this, and I don't think the better ranged builds need to be any stronger than they are now. I wish more restraint was being exercised in the melee power pass, because I think what is going on there is a bad approach and also a bad model for what needs to be done with ranged.

Inflation is real in this context, and our damage output relative to what the content requires is what is increasing. I understand why some people are treating this like a gold rush, and are trying to grab as much as they can while they can, but I'd prefer to see it done differently. I might have been too pessimistic when I said I thought there will have to be a content rebalance after all this is done; maybe what will happen instead is a second pass at melee and ranged power instead. It may not be a perfect solution, but perhaps it can be fine tuned to the point where it isn't too bad overall.

Lastly, thanks for letting me know what happened to Jakeelala. I don't know him well, we've only grouped together a few times over the years. But he's been a good person to have in group on all of those occasions, easy to get along with and a good player. Hopefully he will come back or find a way to contribute to this discussion. And thanks for your contribution too.

Take care.

[maddong]

Youre also the person who suggested in the harper thread that Int based shuriken thrower builds would be OP, despite that being completely wrong. Shuriken builds of course revolve wntirely around Dex for extra shurikens. It sounds like you havent really played a shuriken build.

I hope you think a little harder about these changes youre suggesting than you did in the Harper thread.

Having an opinion isnt necessarily the same thing as being informed and unbiased.

You quoted the edit I made acknowledging the fact 30 sec after I posted it. I posted a shuriken build in the Harper thread. 24 rp, 4 dex, imp dec, half int to dam are not completely useless to a dex build.

[droid327]

The amount of design work, study and due diligence that would be required to make intelligent decisions on balance would kick this release back into the holidays. Haphazardly throwing ranged power into EDs without the background work would probably make things worse.

Sev~

Whats the roadblock to just adding in the same amount as Melee in base Epic Levels? I don't see the balance issue there...EVERYONE gets it, there's not any design decisions there. It just keeps ranged damage somewhat on pace with melee damage - which its *already* behind on Live, and would still be even more behind since there was no Ranged Power in EDs (yet).

Basically, even if we cant have everything right now, why not at least give us what you're 99% probably going to give us eventually anyway?

[Oxarhamar]

Hi,

I don't normally have reading comprehension issues, but although I sometimes get things wrong I think 'add ranged power to every ED except Fury' is pretty unambiguous. If you didn't actually mean adding it on top of what it already gets only from Blitz stacks (rather than both getting ED core bonuses and then more again from stacks of Blitz, which is how I took it) I'm fine with us agreeing that is what you really meant. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

I also actually didn't mean you when I mentioned slimy self-interest. I was referring to some of the worse stuff going on in the various melee power threads. My own advocacy for shiradi is partly motivated by self interest, yes, but I tell myself it's less slimy because that destiny is on the underpowered rather than the overpowered side, for bow users and melees anyway. There is a big difference between asking to be raised up from down low versus wanting others to be kept down, and that is what I meant when I used that adjective. If you don't see the difference and think less of me for using it that way, so be it.

I don't actually think my character need any more power than it has; it's by no means all-powerful, and its DPS and many other things about it would make a true power gamer laugh, but it's enough for me to contribute in endgame content and solo quests on EE as it is. I advocated for some very modest improvements to shiradi to keep it falling any further behind than it already is.

The two things that really concern me here are the proxy nerf, in which my character becomes less able to contribute as others builds become significantly more powerful, and loss of challenge from the game.

Anyway, I'd be happy for most other primal and martial destinies to get ranged power. In most cases I don't think it would make them that much more attractive for ranged builds. I can't think of any game breaking reasons why GMOF, Shadowdancer and Primal Avatar shouldn't get it. Someone who knows ranged builds very well might see some clever opportunity there that I don't, but if so it's up to them to speak up.

I don't see the point of adding ranged power to the divine and arcane sphere ones, although I recognise your argument about the drudgery of levelling off destinies. If that was going to be done though, it needs to be done more evenly, so that the destinies currently missing out on either ranged or melee power, or both, got it too.

What makes me nervous about adding ranged power to Fury and LD (edit: not Blitz) is that they are already strong, and they already received melee power boosts too. My basic difficulty is there needs to be a baseline for balancing all of this, and I don't think the better ranged builds need to be any stronger than they are now. I wish more restraint was being exercised in the melee power pass, because I think what is going on there is a bad approach and also a bad model for what needs to be done with ranged.

Inflation is real in this context, and our damage output relative to what the content requires is what is increasing. I understand why some people are treating this like a gold rush, and are trying to grab as much as they can while they can, but I'd prefer to see it done differently. I might have been too pessimistic when I said I thought there will have to be a content rebalance after all this is done; maybe what will happen instead is a second pass at melee and ranged power instead. It may not be a perfect solution, but perhaps it can be fine tuned to the point where it isn't too bad overall.

Lastly, thanks for letting me know what happened to Jakeelala. I don't know him well, we've only grouped together a few times over the years. But he's been a good person to have in group on all of those occasions, easy to get along with and a good player. Hopefully he will come back or find a way to contribute to this discussion. And thanks for your contribution too.

Take care.

Just on Fury for non strength builds

Personally I hate fury big 400% spikes in damage with DPS between being mediocre almost as if your not in an ED at all.

I wouldn't mind it being changed to have Ranged power in the cores with a lower spike on Adrenaline to give some more consistent DPS but, I know that would be perceived as a nerf and much nerd rage.

[poltt48]

I totally agree with you that many ranged builds fall behind in Epic levels and that is something we want to address in a future update.

Sev~

You got to be kidding even with all changes to melee monkchers are still most damage in game even on lamnia right now. So don't see how saying ranged falling behind in damage. Let me do a AOE for 30-40k damage every 5 min without any mod like monkchers can do now and you can keep your stupid melee power.

[GeoffWatson]

You got to be kidding even with all changes to melee monkchers are still most damage in game even on lamnia right now. So don't see how saying ranged falling behind in damage. Let me do a AOE for 30-40k damage every 5 min without any mod like monkchers can do now and you can keep your stupid melee power.

Not every ranged build is a fury-shot monkcher.

Geoff.

[blerkington]

Just on Fury for non strength builds

Personally I hate fury big 400% spikes in damage with DPS between being mediocre almost as if your not in an ED at all.

I wouldn't mind it being changed to have Ranged power in the cores with a lower spike on Adrenaline to give some more consistent DPS but, I know that would be perceived as a nerf and much nerd rage.

Hi,

That would make the destiny more attractive to me too, but I can see other people not agreeing.

Thanks.

[Legic]

That would make the top ranged builds way too good.

Sev~

Top ranged builds = FoTW Monchers and maybe Shiradi Throwers(I have next to zero experience with these).

This is my moncher: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rpVxZU0Yyp8


45k+ damage with one shot looks kinda OP'd and it's not even close to max(missing overwhelming crit and divine might as well as higher level ship buffs/store pots/etc)...


So show me a FoTW Moncher solo EE What Goes Up in under 25 minutes. The DPS isn't good enough.


So now everyone who plays a moncher is going to be rolling 12monk/4paladin/4ranger arcane archers, picking up 10% movement speed, 55 PRR (blitz+Defender), and blitzing through quests and soloing EE Fall of truth even faster than before.



If you're saving ranged power for a later update, than why are you adding it to one MELEE destiny and not ANY of the others?!?!1!!!

[Ausdoerrt]

Hey all,

This release doesn't include a pass to balance ranged builds. Although there are some good ranged options out there, a lot of ranged builds are left behind in the epic levels. We plan on doing a ranged pass at a future date.

Sev~

So basically, you're saying "if you're not playing a FotM ranged build, feel free to park your toon and leave the game until we make it playable again soon (R) (a.k.a. never)"?

[sunseeker]

Top ranged builds = FoTW Monchers and maybe Shiradi Throwers(I have next to zero experience with these).


...missing overwhelming crit ...

So now everyone who plays a moncher is going to be rolling 12monk/4paladin/4ranger arcane archers, picking up 10% movement speed, 55 PRR (blitz+Defender), and blitzing through quests and soloing EE Fall of truth even faster than before.



If you're saving ranged power for a later update, than why are you adding it to one MELEE destiny and not ANY of the others?!?!1!!!

Legic makes a very good point here. I'm pretty sure we are gonna see more ranged builds getting this feat because it works with ALL attacks not just the ranged ones. I would expect to see higher damage spikes across most non-caster builds without taking into account melee/ranged power additions or lack there of. I know right now its pretty tough for non-fighters to get Overwhelming Critical but that's gonna change and nearly everyone who takes IC ranged will be able to make the jump Overwhelming Critical.

On another note I would like to add

Why don't we see more ranged versions of tactical/smite type attacks. There is Pin and Otto's Whistler...

I would love to see more build options added to Divines. They have a whole faith line devoted to it, the Silver Flame but in the case of Paladins and Favored Souls they are punished for this. The "Silver Flame Exorcism" feat uses Cleric levels yet Favored Souls are forced to take it and its offered to Paladins but doesn't really work..unless your a cleric. Paladins have NO support for ranged combat in the enhancement tree. Clerics and Favored Souls have the exception with "Righteous Weapons" while Favored Souls are granted small bonuses to attack and damage while using a longbow.

The Warpriest tree doesn't offer much in the way of ranged combat, its "best ability" Smite Foe doesn't offer a ranged option. Epic Levels mirror this disparity. Unyielding Sentinel has very that even works with ranged combat. Divine Crusader has only its Zeal of the Righteous as a benefit but offers "Smite the Wicked", "Confront Any Foe" and "Strike Down" all melee smites which offer no reward to faithful Silver Flame followers.

This is a real missed opportunity.

/rant: This next update focuses on the Orchard and ends with a raid against the abbot and vol. The Silver Flame have a large hand in this, but I'll tell you, I feel very disappointed for all my years of devout faith, many of its "perks" have been dead ends.

[Oxarhamar]

Legic makes a very good point here. I'm pretty sure we are gonna see more ranged builds getting this feat because it works with ALL attacks not just the ranged ones. I would expect to see higher damage spikes across most non-caster builds without taking into account melee/ranged power additions or lack there of. I know right now its pretty tough for non-fighters to get Overwhelming Critical but that's gonna change and nearly everyone who takes IC ranged will be able to make the jump Overwhelming Critical.

On another note I would like to add

Why don't we see more ranged versions of tactical/smite type attacks. There is Pin and Otto's Whistler...

I would love to see more build options added to Divines. They have a whole faith line devoted to it, the Silver Flame but in the case of Paladins and Favored Souls they are punished for this. The "Silver Flame Exorcism" feat uses Cleric levels yet Favored Souls are forced to take it and its offered to Paladins but doesn't really work..unless your a cleric. Paladins have NO support for ranged combat in the enhancement tree. Clerics and Favored Souls have the exception with "Righteous Weapons" while Favored Souls are granted small bonuses to attack and damage while using a longbow.

The Warpriest tree doesn't offer much in the way of ranged combat, its "best ability" Smite Foe doesn't offer a ranged option. Epic Levels mirror this disparity. Unyielding Sentinel has very that even works with ranged combat. Divine Crusader has only its Zeal of the Righteous as a benefit but offers "Smite the Wicked", "Confront Any Foe" and "Strike Down" all melee smites which offer no reward to faithful Silver Flame followers.

This is a real missed opportunity.

/rant: This next update focuses on the Orchard and ends with a raid against the abbot and vol. The Silver Flame have a large hand in this, but I'll tell you, I feel very disappointed for all my years of devout faith, many of its "perks" have been dead ends.

There are a range of ranged attacks.

Pun intended.

Slayer Arrow AA tree & Sniper Shot Deepwood being the more popular.

I agree more trees should have more options /multi selector? Melee or ranged attack

[RobbinB]

Hey all,

This release doesn't include a pass to balance ranged builds. Although there are some good ranged options out there, a lot of ranged builds are left behind in the epic levels. We plan on doing a ranged pass at a future date.

Sev~

Please consider that it's not just about balancing ranged against melee in a general sense. Keep in mind that many of us are on the epic reincarnation hamster wheel. Currently, to complete martial and divine past lives and regain my 6 million karma it is pretty much necessary to temporarily convert my ranged toon to a melee toon (because there is absolutely nothing in any of the destinies in divine or martial that doesn't make ranged toons completely gimped).

All epic destinies need to be balanced so that they provide some benefit to all types of toons. Not saying they have to be completely balanced, just need to have something. Wrt ranged toons, this could be done in many ways:
1. add ranged power to weaker epic destinies, as suggested by the op
2. provide certain abilities that don't normally help ranged with specific benefits for ranged toons

Example: Why on earth would anything but a caster run in draconic? You could helped ranged (and melee) toons get some minimal benefit by making the far left sla-type abilities provide passive bonuses that don't really help casters, eg. elemental touch, elemental, and elemental burst modifiers passively added to equipped weapons as you move from tier 2 to tier 3 to tier 4 in those abilities would be one way. Just add something, anything of benefit specifically to ranged in the weaker ed's. Even better try to add things that give benefits that are not just "damage" but have interesting or situational utility, eg. cc-related abilities might make sense in magister, abilities that weaken opponents might make sense in GMF or SD, an arrow with a healing burst AOE centered on the target might make sense in AA or DC.

[Oxarhamar]

You got to be kidding even with all changes to melee monkchers are still most damage in game even on lamnia right now. So don't see how saying ranged falling behind in damage. Let me do a AOE for 30-40k damage every 5 min without any mod like monkchers can do now and you can keep your stupid melee power.

Sev was referring to ranged builds other that the top dogs. You know there are builds that are not monkchers & those are the ones that need the buff.

[Chai]

ranged power should be in the 18 and 20 cores of DWS. this would bring archers who do not use 10k stars closer to those who do.

[Kawai]

ranged power should be in the 18 and 20 cores of DWS. this would bring archers who do not use 10k stars closer to those who do.

negative. needs 2b Pure Ranger lvls for RP;
ditto w/ return of Ranged Alacrity @ around 16/18/20,
along w/ tiers 1-3 on Imbues (all) & 2ndary Imbues & Slayers.

Also, Mana should b affecting Manyshot, bigtime.

o, & Imbue Damage should also be affected by Spell Power for damage type.

ur welcome

[Chai]

negative. needs 2b Pure Ranger lvls for RP;
ditto w/ return of Ranged Alacrity @ around 16/18/20,
along w/ tiers 1-3 on Imbues (all) & 2ndary Imbues & Slayers.

Also, Mana should b affecting Manyshot, bigtime.

o, & Imbue Damage should also be affected by Spell Power for damage type.

ur welcome

Im fine with 18 levels, as that still allows 2 levels for splashing something else.

Why would mana affect manyshot?

[Oxarhamar]

negative. needs 2b Pure Ranger lvls for RP;
ditto w/ return of Ranged Alacrity @ around 16/18/20,
along w/ tiers 1-3 on Imbues (all) & 2ndary Imbues & Slayers.

Also, Mana should b affecting Manyshot, bigtime.

o, & Imbue Damage should also be affected by Spell Power for damage type.

ur welcome

Imbues for Ranger & Artificer should

1) scale with level
2) be affected by Ranged power not Spell power.

[blerkington]

Hi,

Some proposed changes to ranged power for epic level characters have been posted on the Lamannia forums for Update 25 here.

It's nice to see that something is being done about this. Most EDs get something of a boost, along with ranged power being added for epic levels too.

For bow users, it looks to me like LD and FOTW will still be far ahead of shiradi in terms of damage output.

Thanks.

[Ellihor]

Funny you create mlee power to fix mlees because all of them were speding **** loads of investment on archery because it was worth it. People would even sacrifice mlee style feats (THF line) to take archery feats. So, now your going to add ranged power to the same amount, guess whats gonna happen? Everyone will just take manyshot again. Welcome to 2013 reloaded! (but with tons of extra power creep - and a much inferior game compared to u17)