Shout Out To All The Rogues

[redoubt]

Post from another thread.

Move assassinate enhancement to lvl 12 core.

Move Measure the foe to tier 4.

Move Execute to tier 5 and change "assassinate melee attack" to "melee or ranged attack" and add: When living target is helpless kills instantly.

Add new Tier 5 enhancement - Student of anatomy: You get Intelligence to Damage with melee weapon attacks

That would be pretty balanced post update 22 game in my opinion.

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I like those.

My fear would be that with assasinate at level 12, why go past 12? Maybe also put in bonus to assasinate DC in the core at 18 and 20. Perhaps +1 at 18 and +2 at 20.

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On playing a rogue, I've had rogue splash on my main for about 7 years now. I also have a level 16 assassin (from when 16 was cap) that I let collect dust. Back then I did not feel the character was survivable enough and it just didn't compare with so many other options I had. More recently (i.e. the last year) I've done 3 pure assassin lives from the shadar-kai race. I love them. Great fun was had. I did full dex, then a dex/int (when I changed over my enhancement from dex to int) and then the third life wall full on-int spec.

CthrutheEgo's very good posts convinced me to trying commiting to full INT assassin. It does work, but it became too much work. I actually pushed out of shadowdancer and began running in Divine Crusader. Once I filled it up, I didn't go back to shadowdancer because I was not missing the assasinate ability and I was doing better damage.

This is part of why I really like the INT to damage idea. I'm fine with it being a tier 5. That would make you commit becaue it locks out tier 5 from other trees. So many other pre's are getting main-stat to damage, I think it is time for assassin's to get it too.

I think the SA available is good where it is (if we get INT to damage that is.)

I think a few extra points of assasinate DC somewhere would be good.

The stealth and assassinate mechanics need to go back to how they were before the fix to ranged agro.

Any assassinate attack needs to apply the "assassinate" first and foremost. ANY other weapon effects need to apply afterward so they do not break assassinate.

Mobs should not automatically see the assassin when there buddy dies. Neither should they stand there and do nothing. If there buddy is in their cone of vision, put them on alert and give them a listen and spot check. The MUST succeed the listen check to home on the assassin. The must actually suceed in the spot check to see the assassin. The auto target needs to end. The proximity of the buddy to the still living mob MIGHT give a bonus to listen or spot because they are "alerted" to the assassin's presence by the dead body which they saw.

Assassins need to learn to open doors while remaining in stealth and invisible.

Assassins need to learn to throw people, darts, rocks, arrows (whatever) to distract mobs. I.e. Get the mobs to use their "listen" check in the wrong area and go looking over there. This skill needs to work without breaking stealth or invis.

Multi-assasinates need to work.

Lastly, TWF seems to be getting the short straw lately. I worry that without the extra off-hand from tempest, twf rogues will fall farther behind. I don't think assassin's should get the last 20% offhand because that is the tempest benifit. Possible options would be, when using daggers or kukri's +xx% doublestrike or +xx% offhand (but only with the assassin weapons to keep it unique and not be just ripping off another pre.)

[redoubt]

Assassinate isn't a skill, nor is it a tactical ability.

This reminded me.

They need to make it either a tactical skill OR drop more items with bonus to assasinate and with higher values. The other tacticals get items with up +15? Assassinate gets +4? ah...?

I get that instakill DC cannot be as high because those are not insta-kill (other than the helpless damage makes them pretty much insta-kill, but technically they are not). So on a sorc life i'm doing right now, I'm wearing a necklace with min level 15 that gives +4 to evocation. The first item with bonus to assasinate is shadar-kai only item for +2 at level 15. Next item is the EPIC Midnight Greetings at level 20 for +2. Then the necklace at level 28 for +4. Even the casters can get +6 at level 26 on a tier2 thunderforged weapon.

I can see reason to allow rogues to get a higher DC than casters due to the cooldown and the requirement to actually sneak up on the target. Failure of the first try for a caster means throughing a different insta-kill and then maybe a mez of some sort if that also fails. For an assassin, failing the attempt means entering melee combat immediately and rogue are squishy and that junk hurts on EE.

[CThruTheEgo]

I didn't read most of this thread as I tend to just take the game as it is and let others figure out how to improve it, but here's my 2 cents on the current state of rogues (assassins actually, since that's the only kind of rogue I've ever played).

TL;DR version: Fix the broken automatic agro mechanic, make sure that melee power affects TWF and sneak attacks, and all is well.

The only thing wrong with rogues currently is the broken automatic agro mechanic. When you assassinate some mob's buddy, the others should go into search mode and start looking for you, not automatically detect and agro on you. This is especially a problem with archers because once they agro on you and start firing arrows, you can't get back into sneak mode since every time you're hit with an arrow you are forced out of sneak. This is a definite problem as it defeats the entire playstyle of assassins which is unique to them.

Melee power also needs to be added to both TWF and sneak attack damage, but this is still in development so it might end up affecting them. If it is not added, then yes, TWF and rogues will have received a proxy nerf.

It is quite possible to get an effective assassinate DC and I don't see this as a problem at all. A boost could be used for some of the highest level content (EE Stormhorns and the new raids), but that's the only place it's really needed and even there assassinate is not completely useless, you just have to be more selective about your target. See Hassan's Assassin in my sig for such a build as well as links to other builds with an EE capable DC.

Yes there are a lot of undead in the current endgame content, and will be even more with epic Orchard, but undead are not as much of a problem as many people make it out to be. Rogues (assassins in particular) tend to invest a lot in fort bypass, while other classes/builds do not. So crits and sneak attacks against undead are more common on such a build and, at least in my experience, puts rogues on par with other melees I've played vs undead.

Assassins require a very different playstyle compared to other melees. Personally, this is what I like about them, but it is also the reason why many people cannot, or do not like, to play them. For those who cannot adapt to the playstyle, I can understand why they feel that assassins are gimp. But for those who can adapt, assassins are a killing machine.

[Arkantios]

Assassins require a very different playstyle compared to other melees. Personally, this is what I like about them, but it is also the reason why many people cannot, or do not like, to play them. For those who cannot adapt to the playstyle, I can understand why they feel that assassins are gimp. But for those who can adapt, assassins are a killing machine.

Mhm, assassins are extremely different type of playstyle. If you could, look back through the thread and find some of the stuff about bonus feats that we think should be added. I'm going to condense this thread as best I can into a new thread with the best ideas and thoughts about things. Not quite sure where to put it just yet. Maybe the general, maybe here, maybe both. If you guys start some threads too, it might get some attention from the turbine staff.

[Varinon]

Mhm, assassins are extremely different type of playstyle. If you could, look back through the thread and find some of the stuff about bonus feats that we think should be added. I'm going to condense this thread as best I can into a new thread with the best ideas and thoughts about things. Not quite sure where to put it just yet. Maybe the general, maybe here, maybe both. If you guys start some threads too, it might get some attention from the turbine staff.

What I personally got from this thread for a tl;dr version:

1) Update the Assassin and possibly Mechanic enhancement trees
2) Make more items with Assassinate DC boosts
3) Consider adding new rogue-specific bonus feats.

[CThruTheEgo]

Mhm, assassins are extremely different type of playstyle. If you could, look back through the thread and find some of the stuff about bonus feats that we think should be added. I'm going to condense this thread as best I can into a new thread with the best ideas and thoughts about things. Not quite sure where to put it just yet. Maybe the general, maybe here, maybe both. If you guys start some threads too, it might get some attention from the turbine staff.

I did see the bonus feat suggestions and I think they would all be quite useful for improving rogues.

[Arkantios]

Hey guys, i'm really busy with calculus, physics, programming, and economics in college right now. Can I ask you guys to search through this thread and grab your favorite ideas and put them into a few posts? Enhancements, feats, bonus feats, what is currently wrong, and what would be effective ways to fix these problems. Any other ideas would be nice. I'll put the best ideas i can find from you guys in a new thread and then see what we get from that. We might get some turbine employees to actually comment in there, especially if we make different threads in a few different places. If we are to make a difference, we need to show them how important this is to all of us.

[Saekee]

The new harper class tree, available to all classes, gives Int to hit and damage for cheap AP. HUGE for rogues.

[CThruTheEgo]

The new harper class tree, available to all classes, gives Int to hit and damage for cheap AP. HUGE for rogues.

I just got done looking at the harper tree. There will be some excellent synergy with int based assassins. I already know how I'll be redistributing my AP, ending up with 1 more DC and a huge dps boost.

[Arkantios]

Just took a glance at the harper tree and dude...it's gonna amp assassins soooo much depending on how you use it. Lol, int to hit/damage. half int mod to damage and tactical feats. (Not sure if it's confirmed but someone told me the half int mod was also suppose to go to assassinate dc). I'm exceedingly happy with the tree atm.

Besides that fact, I would still like to gather the best ideas from this thread and get another one started when I'm not too busy. Hopefully in the next couple days ill have the time to actually sit down and crawl through to pull out ome of the great opinions and thoughts of you guys.

Btw, thanks for all the help with this thread so far.

Tons of rogueish love,

~XxMazexX The Rogue SneakATank

[Altrelo]

Just took a glance at the harper tree and dude...it's gonna amp assassins soooo much depending on how you use it. Lol, int to hit/damage. half int mod to damage and tactical feats. (Not sure if it's confirmed but someone told me the half int mod was also suppose to go to assassinate dc). I'm exceedingly happy with the tree atm.

Besides that fact, I would still like to gather the best ideas from this thread and get another one started when I'm not too busy. Hopefully in the next couple days ill have the time to actually sit down and crawl through to pull out ome of the great opinions and thoughts of you guys.

Btw, thanks for all the help with this thread so far.

Tons of rogueish love,

~XxMazexX The Rogue SneakATank

It doesn't work with Assassinate, at least I see no increase in the text box. If I had a friend who would let me Assassinate him, I would test it. My only issue is that Assassins, who focus on SA, cannot take the Improved SA feat. While my rogue is doing almost double SA damage in Shadowdancer, I'll miss that feat.

[Arkantios]

My only issue is that Assassins, who focus on SA, cannot take the Improved SA feat. While my rogue is doing almost double SA damage in Shadowdancer, I'll miss that feat.

Wha..? I'm pretty sure they can take it. Why wouldn't they be able to?

[Full_Bleed]

Can I ask you guys to search through this thread and grab your favorite ideas and put them into a few posts?

Fix Assassinate aggro. (How about a tiered Enhancement to auto-stealth after a successful assassination?)
Fix TWF range to be equal to SWF and S&B range.
Make more abilities stances/passives.

[Arkantios]

Fix Assassinate aggro. (How about a tiered Enhancement to auto-stealth after a successful assassination?)
Fix TWF range to be equal to SWF and S&B range.
Make more abilities stances/passives.

Can I have you elaborate on those?

[Saekee]

I think the new harper tree mediates the main issues with the current assassin weak spots. The mechanics and acrobats are always going to be part of splashes IMHO.
The Hassan Assassin, for example, will save a feat with the Harper tree.
The main incentive to stay pure, then, rests with capstones and the special abilities. I like our ideas here.

[nokowi]

I think the new harper tree mediates the main issues with the current assassin weak spots. The mechanics and acrobats are always going to be part of splashes IMHO.
The Hassan Assassin, for example, will save a feat with the Harper tree.
The main incentive to stay pure, then, rests with capstones and the special abilities. I like our ideas here.

I only play max-Int assassin (DC 74 as of U22) so my comments pertain mostly to that style of assassin. I have solo'd many EE quests (EE Trackers Trap most recently) with this build (in Shadowdancer ED), so I know for a fact that Int build was a viable option prior to U23.

Changes needed for Int build:
1. Fix U22 agro (I've been using epic roderics wand to assassinate without getting auto-agro)
2. Make hitting the assassinate button always give you a chance at assassinate (It doesn't on EE about 10% of the time)
3. Higher DC item ONLY AT MAX LEVEL (level 28 or level 30 gear) to handle high DC of new content. I did ~50 epic lives and DC's are fine on EE quests while leveling, even out of destiny.

For U23, I plan on spending 40+ points in the assassin tree and taking through tier 4 of the new Harper Tree while dumping my mechanic and acrobat trees. I have mixed feelings about this Tree. (I would rather have stealth back)

[Feralthyrtiaq]

Yeah, <3 the Tier 2 Mechanic Enhancement

Trap DCs no arcane could ever hope to touch.

With no serious investment in DD getting a seemingly no fail 79 DC using web, glitterdust, grease, and slow mines on my WF SWF 2Ftr/2Rogue/16Arti/5Epic. My web usually fails when I shoot the glass cannon at it /DOH!

And my level 14 WF pure Int based Assassin Rogue is hitting 49 DC on these CC type traps.

Elemental damage mines could be better if Metas, Spell Power and Spell Crit affected them but LOL

Havn't played with the new Assassinate ability beyond a couple HE quests (PoP was fun as hell) but really love what they've done for the traps in the Enhancement line.