Shout Out To All The Rogues

[FranOhmsford]

I remember well when EVERY capped Rogue was an Assassin and anyone NOT playing an Assassin was called a Gimp!

So I was very happy with the Devs looking at fixing Acrobat and Mechanic.

HOWEVER: I have NOT been pleased with the Results!


What the Devs did was make Acrobat and Mechanic into half of a Multiclass with Monk and Artificer respectively!

And of course nerfed Assassin while they were at it with DC changes!


I HATE that we're now given Bonuses to Great X-Bows that are essentially useless whether we want those bonuses or not!
I HATE that we have to take a completely useless Dagger or Stick Enhancement to get to the stuff we want in Acrobat or Assassin!
Each Rogue Pre is predicated on a different weapon type and they DON'T go together!
EVERY Rogue is going to want at least one of the Enhancements from Mechanic YET Who in the world is going to pick up a Great X-Bow instead of a Longbow or Shortbow or Shuriken with such a small benefit?

Light Repeaters SHOULD have been at Enhancement 1 for Mechs! - Look we're going to take at least 2 Arti Levels anyway {Probably 6 for Flame Turret!}.
Why make Lvl 1 such a Pain for this ONE build? - We take the Rogue Level FIRST! {And no Lvl 1 on a TRd Rogue is NOT fun!}.

Knife in the Darkness is utterly useless to and basically an Enhancement tax for Acrobats and Mechs who want to take any Tier 1 Enhancement {say Sneak Attack Training} from Assassin!

Staff Control = Ditto for Assassins and Mechs! {Easy fix for this one - Move the Dex to Attack to the Tier 1 Acrobat Staff Training Enhancement!} - It's the FIRST Enhancement we're going to take anyway!

Remake the three first Cores as:
Assassin: +3 Bluff, Hide & Move Silently AND +1 to each per extra Core Enhancement taken
Acrobat: +3 Balance, Jump & Tumble AND +1 to each per extra Core Enhancement taken
Mechanic: +3 Search, Open Lock and Disable Device AND +1 to each per extra Core Enhancement taken.

Remove the Tier 1 Skill Enhancements and drop Skill Boost to Tier 1 Mech, Haste Boost to Tier 1 Acrobat and Dmg Boost to Tier 1 Assassin!


Can we also get replacement Tier 2 Enhancements for:
Acrobat - May use Dex for Disable Device or May use Wis for Search.
Assassin - May use Int for Bluff or Spot
Mechanic - May use Int for Open Lock or Spot


Lastly: Why on Eberron are Assassins NOT Int to Hit and Dmg?
Int is required for Assassinate so MUST be Maxed!

[Arkantios]

So far quite a few good comments. Lets try to get some more posts in the area of "I don't like this because...." and "I think it should be changed to...." "because....". Constructive criticism goes a long way. Also being able to say whats wrong and what we think should be done to fix it in small words can be useful. I like some of the posts saying that they dont like the enhancement trees and then saying why, and saying where to move different things.

One thing a friend of mine and I were thinking is that in pnp dnd 3.5 the Rogue's bonus feats at 10/13/16/19 could either be used for the small list of bonus feats given or any other feat. Of course asking for every other feat for those four levels would be slightly ludicrous, so I've compiled a small list of feats I believe that should be added to the rogue bonus feat list.

Combat Expertise - Defensive combat stance. 13 int. Acrobats taking this would have a nice and needed increase to their AC and it is a pre-req for the currently broken Improved Feint, which is exceeding useful for Acrobats as well as Assassins.

Improved Feint - This needs to be fixed first but it is an exceptional feat for a Rogue to have. As a Rogue, I know that we need more ways of obtaining SA, or getting aggro off us for that couple seconds. If fixed, since it's a feat, adding 2-3W would be wonderful.

Hamstring - This feat is highly underutilized. Mostly so because we don't have the extra feat slot for it. I know personally I've needed to get away from a few things because I was low on health, so I use to hamstring them, go use a heal scroll, and jump back into combat. *Rogue Thinking 101*. Also, since feat, add 2-3W.

Insightful Reflexes - Come on, this is made for rogues, we all know it. Assassins and mechs need to pump int for max DC and damage and acrobats still use int quite a bit. This feat just seems obvious to have included in the bonus list.

Precise Shot/Rapid Shot/Point Blank Shot/Imp Precise Shot - First things first, Artificers get them as bonus feats. If a rogue is heavily spec'd into mechanic he should be able to take these feats as bonus feats. Rogues in general are extremely burdened with low feats and trying to be a ranged rogue is almost impossible to get all the ranged feats without sacrificing all sorts of other things. These are 4/7 of the basic feats we get at heroic. Add imp crit, possibly insightful reflexes, and completionist and you're already maxed unless you're a human.

Weapon Finesse - "Dagger in the Back: You can now use your Dexterity for damage with Daggers and Kukris. If you possess the Weapon Finesse feat, this also applies to melee weapons with which you can use your Dexterity modifier to hit. This enhancement does not work with handwraps or unarmed attacks."

Sap - "When this feat is activated, a melee special attack is made. If it hits, the victim is dazed for 18 seconds normally or 30 seconds from a successful sneak attack. (Whether or not your character can normally perform sneak attacks) or until they are damaged. Unlike Trip and Stunning Blow, no save is made against this effect, as of Module 4. Creatures who cannot be sneak attacked will not be affected." This being a 2-3W attack would be recommended if, and only if, the damage is done before the Sap effect, otherwise it would not be quite as useful.

Force of Personality - Rogue's are pictured as suave. Always have been. We use cha for bluff, diplo, umd, etc, so to us it can be rather important. Adding this would stop the most of us who just dump it because it's only used for skills.

On the end note from Force of Personality, for the love of god please take Bluff and Diplomacy off the same timer. I don't know anyone who actually uses Diplo instead of Bluff. Because they are on the same timer, most of the time I only put points into it because of the optionals in the crucible. Only reason.

Thank you for reading this longer post.

[InsanityIsYourFriend]

I'm going to make a report of all the feedback I get on this because I believe that rogues really need some loving and nobody is doing anything about it. Everything from random thoughts to heartfelt confessions are needed. If anyone can give actual damage data and whatnot that would be amazing. Twf/swf/heck even thf rogue data would be awesome. This report I'm making will hopefully be shot up a few ladders.

Show your love for rogues, lets steal back that throne that has always belonged to us.

Assassin: the poisons are good at level 1-10, level 11-15 they are decent on vorpal, past lvl 16 they really dont do as much anymore
Mechanic: you are nudging us to use great crossbow, there is one named great crossbow in the game, and... great crossbow (best damage rating out there) vs equally geared shuriken build (lowest damage rating out there) shuriken build wins
Acrobat: ... how the **** can i complain here? i know! i can't add my dex mod to SA dmg, add that into my capstone again pretty please? oh and TF Qstaff doesn't look very awesome

[nokowi]

Which past life increases assassinate DC?

Heroic completionist will add +1 to your DC.

The issue is really being tough enough while making an Int based toon. When out of stealth, less DPS means you take more damage before the mob is killed. Giving up con for int means you are squishier. Giving up epic toughness for +1 int makes you squishier.

Having PRR, better AC, 3-4 green steel displacement items, getting that +3 insightful intelligence helm, etc is quite a grind.

Getting that extra 30 hp from barb, and all of the small bonuses from heroic lives really add up.

I like to think each heroic past life increases your power by about 1%. That extra 40% power really makes a difference when you get to EE content as an assassin. Skilled play trumps all of this, however, so you can get by without these if you are cautious and skilled enough.

It takes work and skill to play an EE assassin to its full potential. This is why few people can or choose to do it.

[Arkantios]

It takes work and skill to play an EE assassin to its full potential. This is why few people can or choose to do it.

We like it that way, but it would still be understandable to give us a bit more balance. Or at the very least change some of the enhancements around and lower their AP cost.

[Raoull]

I remember well when EVERY capped Rogue was an Assassin and anyone NOT playing an Assassin was called a Gimp!

So I was very happy with the Devs looking at fixing Acrobat and Mechanic.

HOWEVER: I have NOT been pleased with the Results!


What the Devs did was make Acrobat and Mechanic into half of a Multiclass with Monk and Artificer respectively!

And of course nerfed Assassin while they were at it with DC changes!


I HATE that we're now given Bonuses to Great X-Bows that are essentially useless whether we want those bonuses or not!
I HATE that we have to take a completely useless Dagger or Stick Enhancement to get to the stuff we want in Acrobat or Assassin!
Each Rogue Pre is predicated on a different weapon type and they DON'T go together!
EVERY Rogue is going to want at least one of the Enhancements from Mechanic YET Who in the world is going to pick up a Great X-Bow instead of a Longbow or Shortbow or Shuriken with such a small benefit?

I'm guessing you don't play other classes much.

Really, all things considered, there are reasons for every type of rogue to "splash" the other tress:

-asassin: sneak damage, venomed strikes, dodge, Killer (this is extremely powerful. actually more powerful to Mechanics and Acrobats than it is to a TWF assassin)
-Acrobat: haste boost (awesome on assassins, less so on mechanics), faster sneaking, pass through on tumble, and at 20 APs you unlock 3 powerful abilities (can't be knocked down, bonus damage to helpless enemies, and a massive boost to defensive roll)
-Mechanic: trapping skills, Wand & Scroll master, +UMD


If you look at other classes, there are very few that would want to spend 17+ (and that's mechanic holding it back, Acro/Assassin offer more like 26+) in 2 other trees.

-Artie/Druid/FvS/Fighter/Paladin.... only have 2 trees
-Monk's Henshin mystic is a waste. Sorcs have all sorts of confusion going on due to elements,

Bards (thanks to the 2 buffed trees, and the insane new one)... lets ignore those.
Ranged Rangers are in a pretty similar situation. 2 full trees, and a solid 14 points in the 3rd. Melee specialists... less so (and the top tiers of their tree is a joke)
Barbarians have 3 decent trees, but nothing nearly as good as assassin or acrobat. Really the one great ability is the 3second timer cleave.
Clerics do pretty well, but a non-melee cleric wouldn't go over 8 points for defense in Warpriest.
Wizards are similar but worse off than clerics, although the armor pass might change that.


It also sounds like you're complaining about the "Enhancement Tax", where you need to spend enhancements on junk to unlock good stuff. Again, other classes have just as much, if not more. I think the worst for this is the KotC tree. To unlock the signature Paladin Ability (that clerics/FvS's unlock at tier 1 for 1Ap each), you need to spend 4 points on.... Ugh. Tell me that taking "faster sneaking" in the Acrobat Tree on your assassin is worse than that... and I'd think you don't sneak enough to be a rogue.....


Mechanic is the only one that I can really see using some love compared to other classes trees. Part of that is because they pushed hard for other crossbows to be useful... but failed. The other bows can't compete with the double rate of fire of repeaters. This also makes the +damage enhancements ridiculous to most mechanics (4AP for +1 dam? really?). If the simply changed that ability to +1/+1 for repeaters, and +1/+2 for non-repeaters, it would go a long way. As it is my Mechanic burns AP on junk just to get to 30AP for doublestrike, and trying to get to 40 just seems a waste.

Lastly: Why on Eberron are Assassins NOT Int to Hit and Dmg?
Int is required for Assassinate so MUST be Maxed!

Easy solution, just splash bard. That bard tree is so ridiculous....
(note this is a joke. I think that bards did need serious love, but that SB was massive overkill.)



TL;DR: I feel your pain, but everything you complain about is just as bad if not worse for other classes. The enhancement pass could seriously use an enhancement pass.....

[FranOhmsford]

I'm guessing you don't play other classes much.

Rofl!

29 Characters on Cannith alone - The Lowest level being 12 {ONE character!}

The only class I don't have any character on at this moment is Bard!

Really, all things considered, there are reasons for every type of rogue to "splash" the other tress:

I never said there wasn't!

What I said was that the 1st core of each tree is an Enhancement Tax for the other two Prestiges!

The 3 Rogue Prestiges are based on mutually exclusive Weapons {Daggers/Kukris, Staves and X-Bows!} and a tiny bonus to a weapon you're rarely going to use is of no benefit to anyone!

If you look at other classes, there are very few that would want to spend 17+ (and that's mechanic holding it back, Acro/Assassin offer more like 26+) in 2 other trees.

Is this an attack on Rogue Mech?

I actually agree: It's a Weak Tree BUT Neither Acrobat or Assassin Trees provide much of a bonus to Mechanics anyway!

The biggest problem though is that any Rogue Mech that doesn't take at least 2 levels of Arti is straight up gimping their character!
Arti and Rogue Mech synergize so strongly that there's MULTIPLE different class splits that work incl. straight up 13/7 either way!
The Devs tried to kill the Arti/Mech split when they brought out the Enhancement Trees BUT they forgot that what they were doing was hurting the Pures more than the Multis!

-Artie/Druid/FvS/Fighter/Paladin.... only have 2 trees

Both Arti Trees are straight up trash!
Arti needs ripping apart and starting again!

Barbarians have 3 decent trees, but nothing nearly as good as assassin or acrobat. Really the one great ability is the 3second timer cleave.

Biggest issue with Barbs is the spreading out of Rage Enhancements forcing you to invest in all 3 trees!

It also sounds like you're complaining about the "Enhancement Tax", where you need to spend enhancements on junk to unlock good stuff. Again, other classes have just as much, if not more. I think the worst for this is the KotC tree. To unlock the signature Paladin Ability (that clerics/FvS's unlock at tier 1 for 1Ap each), you need to spend 4 points on.... Ugh. Tell me that taking "faster sneaking" in the Acrobat Tree on your assassin is worse than that... and I'd think you don't sneak enough to be a rogue.....

None of my Rogues have EVER taken more than one rank of faster sneaking!
And Nice to know you only see ONE way to play a Rogue!

The big issue with KotC and Sacred Defender is that SD is pretty much USELESS to a KotC/HotD and SDs are drooling at the stuff in KotC they could use!

SD costs way too much!
KotC on it's own isn't that great on it's own BUT if an SD could afford it they'd jump at spending 20+ points in KotC!

Mechanic is the only one that I can really see using some love compared to other classes trees. Part of that is because they pushed hard for other crossbows to be useful... but failed. The other bows can't compete with the double rate of fire of repeaters. This also makes the +damage enhancements ridiculous to most mechanics (4AP for +1 dam? really?). If the simply changed that ability to +1/+1 for repeaters, and +1/+2 for non-repeaters, it would go a long way. As it is my Mechanic burns AP on junk just to get to 30AP for doublestrike, and trying to get to 40 just seems a waste.

Again - Mech and Arti synergise so strongly that spending 40 points in Mech just means you've got less to spend in Battle Engineer and your Racial Tree.

And yes - The Great X-Bow push was silly!
We're all taking Arti levels ANYWAY - We're NOT using Great X-Bows!
And even at Lvl 1 {before we take that 1st Arti level} we're not using a Great X-Bow either - Most likely we're swinging a trashy Ember Rapier!

TL;DR: I feel your pain, but everything you complain about is just as bad if not worse for other classes. The enhancement pass could seriously use an enhancement pass.....

This thread is about ROGUES!

I've complained about problems with literally every class over the years and will continue to do so!

BUT

This thread is about ROGUES!


Also: I don't like Feat or Enhancement Taxes!
Wherever they are I will complain about them till I'm blue in the face!

And the 1st Cores of the Rogue Trees ARE Enhancement Taxes as they literally do absolutely NOTHING for the other two Prestiges!!!

Move the Current Core bonuses into a Tier 1 Enhancement - For Acrobat and Mech that's easy - Just stick them in the Tier I Staff and X-Bow Enhancement!
For Assassin it's slightly harder as there isn't any Dagger Enhancements BUT I suppose the Dex to Attack and Kukri Prof. could be moved into the Poison Attacks Enhancement.

Then take the Tier I Skill Enhancements and move them into the 1st Core as +3 to the 3 main skills of each Pre and +1 per extra Core taken:
Acrobat = +3 to Balance, Jump & Tumble with +1 at Core 2,3,4 and Capstone
Assassin = +3 to Bluff, Hide and Move Silently with +1 at Core 2,3,4 and Capstone
Mechanic = +3 to Disable, Open Lock and Search with +1 at Core 2,3,4 and Capstone.
Maybe up the Capstone Bonus to +4 for a total of +10 to each skill!

Then the Haste, Dmg and Skill Boosts can be moved down from Tier 2 to replace the Tier I Skill Enhancements!

[Raoull]

Rofl!

Before going further... I'll note that I think we seem to actually agree with basically everything.

No need to let that get in the way of a good argument though!

Is this an attack on Rogue Mech?

I actually agree: It's a Weak Tree BUT Neither Acrobat or Assassin Trees provide much of a bonus to Mechanics anyway!

err.... actually "killer" is HUUUUGE on a Mech. 20% doubleshot is better than anything in the tree for DPS, except maybe "Int to damage" core ability.

Actually, the 20+ point stuff in Acrobat is similarly awesome. But, in Assassin you can take tiers of sneak damage and venomed blades to get you near that 20 points. On Acrobat there is very little. Haste boost is insane on an Assassin, but from my testing only gives about a 10% attack speed boost over 30 seconds to a Mech (vs. 20% for most classes).

The biggest problem though is that any Rogue Mech that doesn't take at least 2 levels of Arti is straight up gimping their character!
Arti and Rogue Mech synergize so strongly that there's MULTIPLE different class splits that work incl. straight up 13/7 either way!
The Devs tried to kill the Arti/Mech split when they brought out the Enhancement Trees BUT they forgot that what they were doing was hurting the Pures more than the Multis!

I wouldn't quite agree. The 2 artie splash gives 2 feats (if you want MT anyway) plus runearms. That isn't all that huge.
I think the real problem is that going to 20 is so useless on a Mechanic. The capstone is noise, and you need to waste a bunch of AP to get there. Due to that, nearly any splash is going to be more beneficial. Add to that the fact that 3 of the special Rogue Feats are way better than the others, 16 rogue seems like the sweet spot for a non-assassinate "pure" rogue. (And really, if you can't blow the points in Acrobat, maybe only 13 rogue.)

Both Arti Trees are straight up trash!
Arti needs ripping apart and starting again!

lordy yes....

Anyway, skip to the end....

This thread is about ROGUES!

Er... that was fine and dandy when it was the original "Shout out to rogues, write what you play" thread of the OP (which my original post largely was). Once you start getting into all of the complaints about weak trees and AP taxes.... I don't see how you can do that without comparing to what other classes have. Those trees don't exist in a vacuum, contrary to what the designer of Swashbuckler thought....

[Saekee]

Post from another thread.

I remember well when EVERY capped Rogue was an Assassin and anyone NOT playing an Assassin was called a Gimp!

So I was very happy with the Devs looking at fixing Acrobat and Mechanic.

HOWEVER: I have NOT been pleased with the Results!


What the Devs did was make Acrobat and Mechanic into half of a Multiclass with Monk and Artificer respectively!

And of course nerfed Assassin while they were at it with DC changes!


I HATE that we're now given Bonuses to Great X-Bows that are essentially useless whether we want those bonuses or not!
I HATE that we have to take a completely useless Dagger or Stick Enhancement to get to the stuff we want in Acrobat or Assassin!
Each Rogue Pre is predicated on a different weapon type and they DON'T go together!
EVERY Rogue is going to want at least one of the Enhancements from Mechanic YET Who in the world is going to pick up a Great X-Bow instead of a Longbow or Shortbow or Shuriken with such a small benefit?

Light Repeaters SHOULD have been at Enhancement 1 for Mechs! - Look we're going to take at least 2 Arti Levels anyway {Probably 6 for Flame Turret!}.
Why make Lvl 1 such a Pain for this ONE build? - We take the Rogue Level FIRST! {And no Lvl 1 on a TRd Rogue is NOT fun!}.

Knife in the Darkness is utterly useless to and basically an Enhancement tax for Acrobats and Mechs who want to take any Tier 1 Enhancement {say Sneak Attack Training} from Assassin!

Staff Control = Ditto for Assassins and Mechs! {Easy fix for this one - Move the Dex to Attack to the Tier 1 Acrobat Staff Training Enhancement!} - It's the FIRST Enhancement we're going to take anyway!

Remake the three first Cores as:
Assassin: +3 Bluff, Hide & Move Silently AND +1 to each per extra Core Enhancement taken
Acrobat: +3 Balance, Jump & Tumble AND +1 to each per extra Core Enhancement taken
Mechanic: +3 Search, Open Lock and Disable Device AND +1 to each per extra Core Enhancement taken.

Remove the Tier 1 Skill Enhancements and drop Skill Boost to Tier 1 Mech, Haste Boost to Tier 1 Acrobat and Dmg Boost to Tier 1 Assassin!


Can we also get replacement Tier 2 Enhancements for:
Acrobat - May use Dex for Disable Device or May use Wis for Search.
Assassin - May use Int for Bluff or Spot
Mechanic - May use Int for Open Lock or Spot


Lastly: Why on Eberron are Assassins NOT Int to Hit and Dmg?
Int is required for Assassinate so MUST be Maxed!

So far quite a few good comments. Lets try to get some more posts in the area of "I don't like this because...." and "I think it should be changed to...." "because....". Constructive criticism goes a long way. Also being able to say whats wrong and what we think should be done to fix it in small words can be useful. I like some of the posts saying that they dont like the enhancement trees and then saying why, and saying where to move different things.

One thing a friend of mine and I were thinking is that in pnp dnd 3.5 the Rogue's bonus feats at 10/13/16/19 could either be used for the small list of bonus feats given or any other feat. Of course asking for every other feat for those four levels would be slightly ludicrous, so I've compiled a small list of feats I believe that should be added to the rogue bonus feat list.

Combat Expertise - Defensive combat stance. 13 int. Acrobats taking this would have a nice and needed increase to their AC and it is a pre-req for the currently broken Improved Feint, which is exceeding useful for Acrobats as well as Assassins.

Improved Feint - This needs to be fixed first but it is an exceptional feat for a Rogue to have. As a Rogue, I know that we need more ways of obtaining SA, or getting aggro off us for that couple seconds. If fixed, since it's a feat, adding 2-3W would be wonderful.

Hamstring - This feat is highly underutilized. Mostly so because we don't have the extra feat slot for it. I know personally I've needed to get away from a few things because I was low on health, so I use to hamstring them, go use a heal scroll, and jump back into combat. *Rogue Thinking 101*. Also, since feat, add 2-3W.

Insightful Reflexes - Come on, this is made for rogues, we all know it. Assassins and mechs need to pump int for max DC and damage and acrobats still use int quite a bit. This feat just seems obvious to have included in the bonus list.

Precise Shot/Rapid Shot/Point Blank Shot/Imp Precise Shot - First things first, Artificers get them as bonus feats. If a rogue is heavily spec'd into mechanic he should be able to take these feats as bonus feats. Rogues in general are extremely burdened with low feats and trying to be a ranged rogue is almost impossible to get all the ranged feats without sacrificing all sorts of other things. These are 4/7 of the basic feats we get at heroic. Add imp crit, possibly insightful reflexes, and completionist and you're already maxed unless you're a human.

Weapon Finesse - "Dagger in the Back: You can now use your Dexterity for damage with Daggers and Kukris. If you possess the Weapon Finesse feat, this also applies to melee weapons with which you can use your Dexterity modifier to hit. This enhancement does not work with handwraps or unarmed attacks."

Sap - "When this feat is activated, a melee special attack is made. If it hits, the victim is dazed for 18 seconds normally or 30 seconds from a successful sneak attack. (Whether or not your character can normally perform sneak attacks) or until they are damaged. Unlike Trip and Stunning Blow, no save is made against this effect, as of Module 4. Creatures who cannot be sneak attacked will not be affected." This being a 2-3W attack would be recommended if, and only if, the damage is done before the Sap effect, otherwise it would not be quite as useful.

Force of Personality - Rogue's are pictured as suave. Always have been. We use cha for bluff, diplo, umd, etc, so to us it can be rather important. Adding this would stop the most of us who just dump it because it's only used for skills.

On the end note from Force of Personality, for the love of god please take Bluff and Diplomacy off the same timer. I don't know anyone who actually uses Diplo instead of Bluff. Because they are on the same timer, most of the time I only put points into it because of the optionals in the crucible. Only reason.

Thank you for reading this longer post.

very good suggestions above
Sap's cooldown allows it to be used continuously. Just keep trying to assassinate; if you fail, Sap; then stealth, bluff, repeat. Works in solo anyway
I love rogues but am playing a pure ninja now
I want to eventually only play rogues as I feel they are the 'elite' class for advanced players
I think the best weapon for them in epics is the drow dagger
Perhaps what is needed is a full guide--gear, stealth-friendly quests (like Epic Garl), things of note

[Arkantios]

Perhaps what is needed is a full guide--gear

Nahh lol. Let the people who want to play rogues work for it.

[Saekee]

Rofl!

29 Characters on Cannith alone - The Lowest level being 12 {ONE character!}

The only class I don't have any character on at this moment is Bard!



I never said there wasn't!

What I said was that the 1st core of each tree is an Enhancement Tax for the other two Prestiges!

The 3 Rogue Prestiges are based on mutually exclusive Weapons {Daggers/Kukris, Staves and X-Bows!} and a tiny bonus to a weapon you're rarely going to use is of no benefit to anyone!



Is this an attack on Rogue Mech?

I actually agree: It's a Weak Tree BUT Neither Acrobat or Assassin Trees provide much of a bonus to Mechanics anyway!

The biggest problem though is that any Rogue Mech that doesn't take at least 2 levels of Arti is straight up gimping their character!
Arti and Rogue Mech synergize so strongly that there's MULTIPLE different class splits that work incl. straight up 13/7 either way!
The Devs tried to kill the Arti/Mech split when they brought out the Enhancement Trees BUT they forgot that what they were doing was hurting the Pures more than the Multis!



Both Arti Trees are straight up trash!
Arti needs ripping apart and starting again!




Biggest issue with Barbs is the spreading out of Rage Enhancements forcing you to invest in all 3 trees!



None of my Rogues have EVER taken more than one rank of faster sneaking!
And Nice to know you only see ONE way to play a Rogue!

The big issue with KotC and Sacred Defender is that SD is pretty much USELESS to a KotC/HotD and SDs are drooling at the stuff in KotC they could use!

SD costs way too much!
KotC on it's own isn't that great on it's own BUT if an SD could afford it they'd jump at spending 20+ points in KotC!



Again - Mech and Arti synergise so strongly that spending 40 points in Mech just means you've got less to spend in Battle Engineer and your Racial Tree.

And yes - The Great X-Bow push was silly!
We're all taking Arti levels ANYWAY - We're NOT using Great X-Bows!
And even at Lvl 1 {before we take that 1st Arti level} we're not using a Great X-Bow either - Most likely we're swinging a trashy Ember Rapier!




This thread is about ROGUES!

I've complained about problems with literally every class over the years and will continue to do so!

BUT

This thread is about ROGUES!


Also: I don't like Feat or Enhancement Taxes!
Wherever they are I will complain about them till I'm blue in the face!

And the 1st Cores of the Rogue Trees ARE Enhancement Taxes as they literally do absolutely NOTHING for the other two Prestiges!!!

Move the Current Core bonuses into a Tier 1 Enhancement - For Acrobat and Mech that's easy - Just stick them in the Tier I Staff and X-Bow Enhancement!
For Assassin it's slightly harder as there isn't any Dagger Enhancements BUT I suppose the Dex to Attack and Kukri Prof. could be moved into the Poison Attacks Enhancement.

Then take the Tier I Skill Enhancements and move them into the 1st Core as +3 to the 3 main skills of each Pre and +1 per extra Core taken:
Acrobat = +3 to Balance, Jump & Tumble with +1 at Core 2,3,4 and Capstone
Assassin = +3 to Bluff, Hide and Move Silently with +1 at Core 2,3,4 and Capstone
Mechanic = +3 to Disable, Open Lock and Search with +1 at Core 2,3,4 and Capstone.
Maybe up the Capstone Bonus to +4 for a total of +10 to each skill!

Then the Haste, Dmg and Skill Boosts can be moved down from Tier 2 to replace the Tier I Skill Enhancements!

btw seems like you have been playing your barb toons lately with all the exclamation points in your post ????

[FranOhmsford]

btw seems like you have been playing your barb toons lately with all the exclamation points in your post ????

I ALWAYS play my Barb toons on the Forums!!!

[Gizeh]

btw seems like you have been playing your barb toons lately with all the exclamation points in your post ????

You're not the first one to notice:

"Cut out all these exclamation points. An exclamation point is like laughing at your own joke." - F. Scott Fitzgerald

[goodspeed]

When I made my first rog I went with one of wowo's builds and modified it a lil on the guts. Was great, still is forcing SA. But now with all the changes and enhancements, and ED's, I honestly can't stand twf wraps or swords.

Ive become so addicted to just endlessly cleaving and cutting through dozens of monsters with overpowered 2 handers and seeing these huge numbers. It's even worse now that ive made that thunder falchon. Hell my pally mix gathers up like 20 undead and just wails on everything like an indestructible maniac that just got consumed of the effects of pcp lol.

[Nightmanis]

When I made my first rog I went with one of wowo's builds and modified it a lil on the guts. Was great, still is forcing SA. But now with all the changes and enhancements, and ED's, I honestly can't stand twf wraps or swords.

Ive become so addicted to just endlessly cleaving and cutting through dozens of monsters with overpowered 2 handers and seeing these huge numbers. It's even worse now that ive made that thunder falchon. Hell my pally mix gathers up like 20 undead and just wails on everything like an indestructible maniac that just got consumed of the effects of pcp lol.

I supplemented my love of big numbers with a constant, high speed stream of numbers. Non blitz on a stunned mob doing 220+ first number, 80+ second number 5 times a second is just so addicting it's insane. But I spent months trying to achieve that. I love my rogue...

[Ungood]

Well, I don't have a Rogue, at best I had a "Rogue Life" for my main, and then I was a Mechanic.

So what I am going to say is going to focus on Mechanic.

Personally I found them to be very weak, the things I would have liked to have seen done with them, where not done.

Like for example.

I would have liked them to be able to "Take a 20" when disarming a trap. This would have added some time to disarm/pick time, but would have guaranteed a 20 roll.

I would have also liked it if Mechanics could have "Adjusted" their ammo, IE: make Bolt's that were in essence Traps, that the Mechanic could shoot.

I would have liked for Mechanics to be able to go a step up on the Trap Evasion tier, and get additional damage reductions from failing to dodge traps, like -10, -20, -30% reduction as they went up the tree, and this would be above and beyond any other saves or reductions they got, as well as increased saves vs traps.

Those were just a few of the things I would have liked to have seen, making Mechanics the trap masters of the game, would have been a nice touch overall, seeing some Rogue-Slash be able to out trap a pure rogue was always kind of sad.

[arcattaii]

Splash builds become too powerful after enhancement pass. Although the Devs did some changes to improve capstones of some classes, but it won't change the current circumstances.

In my opinion, splashes should be more restrictive. For example, the T5 enhancements should require CLASS level 12, and remove the restriction of picking 2 T5 from different trees. This will somewhat help the pure class builds.

In current design, pure assassin will never be competive with the most popular splash builds, even if given a big Assassinate DC improvement. Because they lack the effective self healing abilities and saved. A fair geared Dex based rogue will only have around 60 reflex save (non-buffed), not to mention their will and fortitude saves. I'm also a fan of pure classes, but it become more and more unplayable now.

For the TWF Assassins themselves. I think the Devs should add an ability, either in Core or Tree, to allow assassins use INT modifier to hit and damage when wielding finesseable weapon, or at least for dagger and kukri. And for epic destinies, I suggest to introduce “melee levels”. It works similar to “caster level”, but only help to increase the DCs for specific class abilities. For example, each Shadowdancer level count as 1 rogue level for a total 6, each GMoF level count as 1 monk level, and the same for fighters barbs and others.

[FranOhmsford]

err.... actually "killer" is HUUUUGE on a Mech. 20% doubleshot is better than anything in the tree for DPS, except maybe "Int to damage" core ability.

Now just to get there you're losing an awful lot from either Mechanic or more likely your racial tree.

And let's see if we can get to 20 in Assassin without buying basically useless Enhancements for a Mech {Ignoring the 1st Core Obviously}:

Core 1 - 1 pt
Tier 1 Sneak Attack Training - 2 pts
Tier 1 Stealthy - 2 ranks, 2 pts
Tier 2 Sneak Attack Training - 2 pts
Tier 2 Dmg Boost - 3 ranks, 6 pts
Tier 3 Crit Acc - 3 ranks, 3 pts
Tier 3 Sneak Attack Training - 2 pts
Tier 3 Intelligence - 2 pts

20 pts - Just made it!

2 extra points in Hide and MS are neither here nor there
and of course the Tier 1 Core is a complete Waste for a Mech!

Add:
Tier 4 Killer - 3 ranks, 3 pts
Tier 4 Int - 2 pts
Tier 4 Sneak Attack Training - 2 pts
Tier 4 Crit Dmg - 3 ranks, 3 pts

and you've spent 30 pts in Assassin on a Rogue Mech!

[Saekee]

Splash builds become too powerful after enhancement pass. Although the Devs did some changes to improve capstones of some classes, but it won't change the current circumstances.

In my opinion, splashes should be more restrictive. For example, the T5 enhancements should require CLASS level 12, and remove the restriction of picking 2 T5 from different trees. This will somewhat help the pure class builds.

In current design, pure assassin will never be competive with the most popular splash builds, even if given a big Assassinate DC improvement. Because they lack the effective self healing abilities and saved. A fair geared Dex based rogue will only have around 60 reflex save (non-buffed), not to mention their will and fortitude saves. I'm also a fan of pure classes, but it become more and more unplayable now.

For the TWF Assassins themselves. I think the Devs should add an ability, either in Core or Tree, to allow assassins use INT modifier to hit and damage when wielding finesseable weapon, or at least for dagger and kukri. And for epic destinies, I suggest to introduce “melee levels”. It works similar to “caster level”, but only help to increase the DCs for specific class abilities. For example, each Shadowdancer level count as 1 rogue level for a total 6, each GMoF level count as 1 monk level, and the same for fighters barbs and others.

I wonder--would INT in the first cores be enough? What if assaasinate used either Int OR Dex? Consider shadowdancer's executioner's strike

[FranOhmsford]

Now: What do we want from Mechanic:

Core 1 - 1 pt
Tier 1 X-Bow Training - 2 pts
Tier 1 Mechanics - 3 ranks, 3 pts
Tier 1 Awareness - 3 ranks, 3 pts
Core 2 - 1 pt
Core 3 - 1 pt
Tier 2 X-Bow Training - 2 pts
Tier 3 X-Bow Training - 2 pts
Tier 3 Int - 2 pts
Tier 3 UMD - 3 ranks, 3 pts
Core 4 - 1 pt
Tier 4 Int - 2 pts
Tier 4 X-Bow Training - 2 pts
Tier 2 Skill Boost - 3 ranks, 6 pts {Probably unnecessary but gets you to 31 pts spent in Tree}
Core 5 {a complete waste} - 1 pt
Tier 5 Rapid Fire - 3 ranks, 3 pts
Tier 2 Wand and Scroll Mastery - 3 ranks, 6 pts {Gotta get 40 pts spent for Capstone}
Capstone Hip Flask

42 pts spent total!

Which leaves just 8 pts for Racial Enhancements!

Elf
Cores 1-4 - 6 pts
Nothing is Hidden - 1 rank, 2 pts

Halfling
Cores 1-4 - 6 pts
Cunning - 1 rank, 1 pt
Guile - 1 pt

Drow
All Cores - 7 pts
Keen Senses - 1 rank, 1 pt
Eurgh - No Nothing is Hidden!!!



One Question - Does the Killer Morale Bonus stack with Rapid Fire Doubleshot from Rogue Mech {doesn't say what type of bonus that is on Wiki}?