Shout Out To All The Rogues

[Arkantios]

Remove the 'can be taken multiple times' for all but Heartseeker.
You've got a doublestrike overload with Shadow Mirror, you'd force trap-specs to only take Detonator each feat slot since it's DC based (likewise for Improved Assassinate).
Rename Insightful Blade (since, y'know. Sireth aside, staves aren't typically bladed) into Insightful Strikes or somesuch.
Rune Arm Juryrig doesn't clearly specify if other rune arm item benefits are provided or not. Note that seperating out the other enchantments of an item would be a massive pain to code in.
Otherwise, it should be doable as a feat. Rather a potent one, though- not like anyone but caster artis really puts much thought into the runearm shots when considering the feat.
Maybe have it require Skill Focus: UMD or somesuch, for the flavor association, and to make that feat itself more desirable.

Improved Precision: Precision feat now bypasses 40% fort.
Insightful Devastation: Int to damage with daggers, kukris and staves. (Changed Name)
Heartseeker: Your equipped weapon gains Heartseeker 1. Can be taken multiple times.
Improved Assasinate: Adds 4 to assasinate DC. (Took off ability to take multiple times)
Ghost: You gain permanent 10% incorporeality. Stacks with all other sources.
Detonater: +6 DC to traps, 10% trap setting speed. +50% Damage with all traps (Added Damage, Took off ability to take multiple times)
Faker: +4 UMD (Possible pre-req of skill foc UMD).
Cunning: +2 sneak attack die. Can be taken multiple times.
Rune Arm Juryrig: Can use Rune arms, but only for imbues. (Clarifying that this means that they get every effect on the runearm but simply cannot use the runearm shot)
Shadow Mirror: 6% doublestrike or doubleshot. Can be taken multiple times. (Either leave this as it is and take off the ability to be taken multiple times, or, reduce to 3-4% and keep the multiple times thing)

Does this look better?

[Saekee]

Improved Precision: Precision feat now bypasses 40% fort.
Insightful Devastation: Int to damage with daggers, kukris and staves. (Changed Name)
Heartseeker: Your equipped weapon gains Heartseeker 1. Can be taken multiple times.
Improved Assasinate: Adds 4 to assasinate DC. (Took off ability to take multiple times)
Ghost: You gain permanent 10% incorporeality. Stacks with all other sources.
Detonater: +6 DC to traps, 10% trap setting speed. +50% Damage with all traps (Added Damage, Took off ability to take multiple times)
Faker: +4 UMD (Possible pre-req of skill foc UMD).
Cunning: +2 sneak attack die. Can be taken multiple times.
Rune Arm Juryrig: Can use Rune arms, but only for imbues. (Clarifying that this means that they get every effect on the runearm but simply cannot use the runearm shot)
Shadow Mirror: 6% doublestrike or doubleshot. Can be taken multiple times. (Either leave this as it is and take off the ability to be taken multiple times, or, reduce to 3-4% and keep the multiple times thing)

Does this look better?

Hi Dagolar and Ark, thx for thoughtful feedback on those abilities. I think that rogues, unlike Monks, offer more in this way to pures since their four special abilities start at level 10, instead of 3 martial feats by level 6. Also, strengthening these insted of the enhancements means that a pure rogue is favored.
Funny--I am not sure what four I would take from this list...
A staff build would want doublestrike; assasins, heartseeker; all would want the stacking incorporeality. New players might select the UMD boost.

[Arkantios]

Hi Dagolar and Ark, thx for thoughtful feedback on those abilities. I think that rogues, unlike Monks, offer more in this way to pures since their four special abilities start at level 10, instead of 3 martial feats by level 6. Also, strengthening these insted of the enhancements means that a pure rogue is favored.
Funny--I am not sure what four I would take from this list...
A staff build would want doublestrike; assasins, heartseeker; all would want the stacking incorporeality. New players might select the UMD boost.

I'd probably take the assassinate dc/heartseeker/incorp/and either Cunning or Insightful Devastation since im more of a power attack rogue than precision.

[Saekee]

I'd probably take the assassinate dc/heartseeker/incorp/and either Cunning or Insightful Devastation since im more of a power attack rogue than precision.

is that your xxMazexx build/toon? Can you post a screenie or something? Is it pure? Just curious.

[Arkantios]

is that your xxMazexx build/toon? Can you post a screenie or something? Is it pure? Just curious.

Not currently on that life. Doing a swash just to try it out, but im 26 almost 27. Trying to rush so I can TR into my SneakATank build lol. Havent been a pure rogue since my 6th life and i'm exceedingly starting to miss it.

[Saekee]

I think another possibility for tier 5 assassinate should be that one can do it with thrown weapons or non-repeating xbows too, so long as he or she is stealthed. I would love to see an assassin whipping a dagger off and instakilling. An EMG in the offhand, of course.
This would open up pure IPS stealthy thrower builds--one could pick off a whole line of mobs

Right now this is occuring anyway with bards and coup de gras, so my suggestion is not OP

[Arkantios]

This is the most recent picture I can find, but still pretty old and from 15 lives ago lol.

[Altrelo]

I accidentally closed the tab and erased all I've written, so I will be brief.

Assassin's Trick: Too long of a cast time, you're a level 0 Rogue is you stand and point for almost 4 seconds. You don't deserve to be level 12.
Nimbleness: Both abilities that increase dodge are hard to maintain. Halfling Agility is good but Nimbleness is quite bad. Make max the stacks at 5 and have them decay every ~4 seconds.
Lethality: Vorpal sucks, we do 100+ damage on SA only. Increase weapon die or extra untyped damage like Knight of the Chalice. Assassin's exploits the body's weakness, show it.
Capstone: Mechanics and Acrobats get our capstones, we only get 2 more SA die. Grant a 50% or so Doublestrike when breaking Sneak. I can't think of an ability that would work with it except for Assassinate.

Perhaps decrease the cooldown of Assassinate, Core 5 of Mechanic does something similar.

What's the point of kukris if daggers get the same threat range as them with Knife Specialization? There are better daggers than kukris and most finesse weapons do piercing damage, taking IC: Slashing then is a waste.

Why is the save on Thunderstone fort? It screams of a will save.
Ooze Flask gives a -2 to AC, seriously? Quick Strike gives a +25% to Doublestrike with only 2 seconds of down time. Give it a blind or 2 seconds of fear, you run away in fear often enough of oozes.

What's with all this half Rogue level foolishness? Give capstones a full Rogue level bonus to DC. The Sorcerers PrE have a load of bonuses, it doesn't matter. Rogue's rely on DC's like casters, you don't see their SLA's needed half their level.
10% Doubleshot? If you're trying to push Great Crossbows, grant an increase to reloading speed.
A Bleed stack? Give it a stun chance on critical for a second or so. It fits with the reason to wield a great crossbow, increase threat range.

Improved Precision: Precision feat now bypasses 40% fort.
Insightful Devastation: Int to damage with daggers, kukris and staves. (Changed Name)
Heartseeker: Your equipped weapon gains Heartseeker 1. Can be taken multiple times.
Improved Assasinate: Adds 4 to assasinate DC. (Took off ability to take multiple times)
Ghost: You gain permanent 10% incorporeality. Stacks with all other sources.
Detonater: +6 DC to traps, 10% trap setting speed. +50% Damage with all traps (Added Damage, Took off ability to take multiple times)
Faker: +4 UMD (Possible pre-req of skill foc UMD).
Cunning: +2 sneak attack die. Can be taken multiple times.
Rune Arm Juryrig: Can use Rune arms, but only for imbues. (Clarifying that this means that they get every effect on the runearm but simply cannot use the runearm shot)
Shadow Mirror: 6% doublestrike or doubleshot. Can be taken multiple times. (Either leave this as it is and take off the ability to be taken multiple times, or, reduce to 3-4% and keep the multiple times thing)

Does this look better?

These feats are good, though a bit much it covers all possible Rouge builds.

I also agree with most of the other suggestion, such as adding rogue level to Shadowdancer. As it is I'm likely going to use Legendary Dreadnought when U23 comes in.

[Varinon]

I love making mock-up trees, and this thread interested me enough to make one. Here's what I'd do to the Assassin tree if I had complete (or any) control over what Turbine does.

For your benefit, all abilities with a green color have not been modified from live. Abilities with a red color are completely new abilities. Abilities with a Yellow color have been moved (and possibly modified)


Assassin

Core Abilities:
• 1 AP, class level 1: Knife in the Darkness: You gain proficiency with Kukris. You can use your Dexterity modifier to hit with Daggers and Kukris. Additionally, you gain +5 Sneak Attack damage for each core ability in the assassin tree that you possess.
• 5 AP, class level 3: Dagger in the Back: You can now use your Dexterity for damage with Daggers and Kukris. If you possess the Weapon Finesse feat, this also applies to melee weapons with which you can use your Dexterity modifier to hit. This enhancement does not work with handwraps or unarmed attacks.
• 10 AP, class level 6: Assassin's Trick: Toggle: Toggle this mode on to bypass 25% fortification and 25% of a monster's immunity to sneak attack.
• 20 AP, class level 12: Assassinate: Stealth Melee Assassinate Attack: On Sneak Attack: Kills a living target instantly if the target fails a Fortitude save (DC 10 + Rogue Level + Int Modifier). Even on a successful save, the target takes 10d6 additional sneak attack damage from this attack.
• 30 AP, class level 18: Lethality: Any sneak attack that also counts as a vorpal strike (attack roll of 20 followed by critical confirmation) that you make will kill most living targets.
• 41 AP, class level 20: Deadly Shadow: Active: Activate this ability to gain a bonus to sneak attack damage equal to your Intelligence Modifier, bypass 100% fortification and 100% sneak attack immunity for 20 seconds. While Deadly Shadow is active, you may assassinate on any sneak attack--including sneak attacks made outside of stealth. (Cooldown: 2 minutes). Passive: You gain +2 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence and +4 sneak attack dice.

Tier One (0 AP Required)
• Poison Strikes (1 AP): Select one of three poisonous attacks
-Heartseeker Poison: Melee Poison Attack: On damage: -1 fortitude save (stacks 1/3/5 times), On Crit: 1d[4/6/8] Con damage, on Vorpal: Heartseeker (-5% hit points, Fort save to negate DC 10 + Rogue level + INT modifier). At tier 3: On vorpal sneak attack: Inflict blindness (Fort save to negate DC 10 + Rogue level + INT modifier)
-Ice Chill Poison: Melee Poison Attack: On damage: -1 reflex save (stacks 1/3/5 times), On Crit: 1d[4/6/8] Dex damage, on Vorpal: Paralysis (Reflex save to negate DC 10 + Rogue level + INT modifier). At tier 3: On vorpal sneak attack: Frozen (Target is frozen in place and considered helpless. Reflex save to negate DC 10 + Rogue level + INT modifier). Targets cannot be both frozen and paralyzed.
-Soulshatter Poison: Melee Poison Attack: On damage: -1 will save (stacks 1/3/5 times), On Crit: 1d[4/6/8] Wis damage, on Vorpal: Curse (-4 attack, skill & save rolls, Will save to negate DC 10 + Rogue level + INT modifier). At tier 3: On vorpal sneak attack: Enervation (Target takes 1d4 negative levels. Will save to negate DC 10 + Rogue level + INT modifier.)
• Toxin Affinity (1 AP): +[1/2/3] Fortitude saves vs. Poisons and to the save DC of your Poison attacks.
• Shiv (1 AP): Melee Attack: +[1/2/3][W] damage and reduces your threat with nearby enemies by -[100/200/300]. On Sneak Attack: Target also gains a -2 Fortitude Save against Poisons for 20 seconds (Stacks 5 times) (Cooldown: 12 seconds)
• Sneak Attack Training I (2 AP): Grants +1 Sneak Attack die and +1 to hit when performing sneak attacks.
• Stealthy (1 AP): +[1/2/3] Hide and Move Silent. At tier 3: +1 Sneak Attack Die

Tier Two (5 AP Required)
• Poison Strikes (1 AP): Select one of three poisonous attacks
• Venomed Bades: Poison Stance: On hit: 1d[4/6/8] (+200 Melee Power) poison damage with weapon attacks.
• Bleed Them Out: Melee Attack: Deal +[1/2/3][W] damage and on successful damage causes your opponent to bleed. On Sneak Attac: Apply two stacks of bleed instead of one. The bleed effect can stack up to [5/10/15] times. (Cooldown: 6 seconds) (Bleed deals 1d6 (+200% Melee Power) damage every 2 seconds for 14 seconds.)
• Sneak Attack Training II (2 AP) [Requires: Sneak Attack Training I]: Grants +1 Sneak Attack die and +1 to hit when performing sneak attacks.
• Damage Boost: Activate to gain a +[10/20/30]% Action Boost bonus to weapon damage for 20 seconds. (Cooldown: 30 seconds)

Tier Three (10 AP Required)
• Poison Strikes (1 AP): Select one of three poisonous attacks
• Critical Accuracy (1 AP): +[1/2/3] to confirm Critical hits
• Bloodletter (1 AP) [Requires: Bleed Them Out]: Bleeding damage is increased to 1d[8/12/20] (+200% Melee Power). Additionally, bleeding enemies have their healing reduced by [15/30/50]%.
• Sneak Attack Training III (2 AP) [Requires: Sneak Attack Training II]: Grants +1 Sneak Attack die and +1 to hit when performing sneak attacks.
• Dexterity or Intelligence (2 AP): Choose one.

Tier Four (20 AP Required)
• Execute (1 AP): Melee Assassinate attack: +[1/2/3][W]. On sneak attack: Deal [100/250/500] additional damage. If the target is below [10/15/20]% health, trigger an Assassinate effect, instantly killing your target unless they make a fortitude save with a DC of (10 + Rogue Level + Int Modifier). (Cooldown: 30 seconds)
• Critical Damage (1 AP): +[1/2/3] critical hit damage (before weapon multipliers).
• Killer (1 AP): When you kill a target, gain +5% morale bonus to Doublestrike and Doubleshot for 15 seconds. Weak enemies will not always produce this effect. The killer buff can stack up to 2/3/4 times. When the duration of Killer expires, one stack is removed and the timer is reset.
• Sneak Attack Training IV (2 AP) [Requires: Sneak Attack Training III]: Grants +1 Sneak Attack die and +1 to hit when performing sneak attacks.
• Dexterity or Intelligence (2 AP): Choose one.

Tier Five (30 AP Required)
• Measure the Foe (1 AP): Gain +1 to the DCs of your Assassinate attacks every 3/2/1 second(s) you remain stealthed. This effect stacks up to 5 times.
• Into Oblivion (1 AP) [Requires: Measure the Foe]: Grants an additional +[1/2/3] bonus to the DCs of your Assassinate attacks. Additionally, monsters who are hit with an assassinate attack and save against or are immune to it, take an additional [3/6/10]d6 damage, and lose 25% fortification and 25% sneak attack immunity for 6 seconds.
• Nimbleness (1 AP): On Sneak Attack or Damaged: Up to once every 2 seconds, you gain 1% dodge for 6 seconds. This effect can stack up to [5/10] times.
• Sneak Attack Mastery (2 AP) [Requires: Sneak Attack Training IV]: Sneak Attacks deal [1/2] additional damage per die rolled. For example, if you deal 10d6 Sneak Attack Damage without Sneak Attack Mastery, you would deal 10d6+[10/20] sneak attack damage instead.
• Knife Specialization (2 AP): You gain a +1 Competence bonus to Critical Damage Multiplier with daggers and kukris. Daggers also gain a +1 Competence bonus to Critical Threat Range.

[Noctus]

My Assassin (pure Rogue, max INT) is currently shelfed. Reasons for this are:

• he is by Rogue-Class-nature a squishy type, on which yu have to work really hard to alleviate it (get PLs, get GS-Clickys). Yet his DPS gain for this drawback isnt enough as for what other classes/multiclasses can easily reach while having a much better defense.
• Assassinate, the Defining Ability of an assassin, is not easy to set up and then even when you totally build for it and pay the build- and opportunitycosts for it, still not realiaby enough in Elite content. Mob saves have just inflated while assassinate-DC got left behind. If i go all out on INT (build, enhancements, gear) on a pure Rogue i should have a reliably asassinate DC on Elite difficulty even before i spend several past lives long for farming the last itzy bit of last missing gear for the perfect setup, or even when im in an off-destiny in epics.
• Missing Gear. Ther is an utter lack in items that support Assassinate. There are literally only a handful of items that raise its DC, while casters and combat-tactics-specialists can easily find items that raise they Special Attack DCs, while monster saves are designed with these in mind. Also therer should be items/abilities that make Undead and Constructs backstab-able. The later 3.5 splatbooks and Pathfinder recognized this unfun drawbacks for Rogue in undead-heavy quests and adressed it with items that made these monsters sneakattackable like normal monsters respectively simply makeing all corporeal monsters who do not have explicit Fortification crit- and sneakattackable (not incorporeals or slimy blobs with literally no anatomy).

[Cap_Man]

[*]Missing Gear. Ther is an utter lack in items that support Assassinate. There are literally only a handful of items that raise its DC, while casters and combat-tactics-specialists can easily find items that raise they Special Attack DCs, while monster saves are designed with these in mind.[/LIST]

This is what I have noticed. There are what? ... two items in the game that increase your assassinate DC? I have an EMG which took me a year to build plus the generosity of party member who passed me the shard. All for a +2 DC ... that is crazy!

[Arkantios]

This is what I have noticed. There are what? ... two items in the game that increase your assassinate DC? I have an EMG which took me a year to build plus the generosity of party member who passed me the shard. All for a +2 DC ... that is crazy!

I think there are 3 items currently, and one on its way. Emg is +2, shadar-kai get an item out of their 15 pack that gives +2, and there is a necklace out of the deathwyrm raid that gives +4. ENecro 4 is suppose to bring a helm with +4 on it. All of these non-stacking.

[Altrelo]

I love making mock-up trees, and this thread interested me enough to make one. Here's what I'd do to the Assassin tree if I had complete (or any) control over what Turbine does.

For your benefit, all abilities with a green color have not been modified from live. Abilities with a red color are completely new abilities. Abilities with a Yellow color have been moved (and possibly modified)


Assassin

Core Abilities:
• 1 AP, class level 1: Knife in the Darkness: You gain proficiency with Kukris. You can use your Dexterity modifier to hit with Daggers and Kukris. Additionally, you gain +5 Sneak Attack damage for each core ability in the assassin tree that you possess.
• 5 AP, class level 3: Dagger in the Back: You can now use your Dexterity for damage with Daggers and Kukris. If you possess the Weapon Finesse feat, this also applies to melee weapons with which you can use your Dexterity modifier to hit. This enhancement does not work with handwraps or unarmed attacks.
• 10 AP, class level 6: Assassin's Trick: Toggle: Toggle this mode on to bypass 25% fortification and 25% of a monster's immunity to sneak attack.
• 20 AP, class level 12: Assassinate: Stealth Melee Assassinate Attack: On Sneak Attack: Kills a living target instantly if the target fails a Fortitude save (DC 10 + Rogue Level + Int Modifier). Even on a successful save, the target takes 10d6 additional sneak attack damage from this attack.
• 30 AP, class level 18: Lethality: Any sneak attack that also counts as a vorpal strike (attack roll of 20 followed by critical confirmation) that you make will kill most living targets.
• 41 AP, class level 20: Deadly Shadow: Active: Activate this ability to gain a bonus to sneak attack damage equal to your Intelligence Modifier, bypass 100% fortification and 100% sneak attack immunity for 20 seconds. While Deadly Shadow is active, you may assassinate on any sneak attack--including sneak attacks made outside of stealth. (Cooldown: 2 minutes). Passive: You gain +2 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence and +4 sneak attack dice.

Tier One (0 AP Required)
• Poison Strikes (1 AP): Select one of three poisonous attacks
-Heartseeker Poison: Melee Poison Attack: On damage: -1 fortitude save (stacks 1/3/5 times), On Crit: 1d[4/6/8] Con damage, on Vorpal: Heartseeker (-5% hit points, Fort save to negate DC 10 + Rogue level + INT modifier). At tier 3: On vorpal sneak attack: Inflict blindness (Fort save to negate DC 10 + Rogue level + INT modifier)
-Ice Chill Poison: Melee Poison Attack: On damage: -1 reflex save (stacks 1/3/5 times), On Crit: 1d[4/6/8] Dex damage, on Vorpal: Paralysis (Reflex save to negate DC 10 + Rogue level + INT modifier). At tier 3: On vorpal sneak attack: Frozen (Target is frozen in place and considered helpless. Reflex save to negate DC 10 + Rogue level + INT modifier). Targets cannot be both frozen and paralyzed.
-Soulshatter Poison: Melee Poison Attack: On damage: -1 will save (stacks 1/3/5 times), On Crit: 1d[4/6/8] Wis damage, on Vorpal: Curse (-4 attack, skill & save rolls, Will save to negate DC 10 + Rogue level + INT modifier). At tier 3: On vorpal sneak attack: Enervation (Target takes 1d4 negative levels. Will save to negate DC 10 + Rogue level + INT modifier.)
• Toxin Affinity (1 AP): +[1/2/3] Fortitude saves vs. Poisons and to the save DC of your Poison attacks.
• Shiv (1 AP): Melee Attack: +[1/2/3][W] damage and reduces your threat with nearby enemies by -[100/200/300]. On Sneak Attack: Target also gains a -2 Fortitude Save against Poisons for 20 seconds (Stacks 5 times) (Cooldown: 12 seconds)
• Sneak Attack Training I (2 AP): Grants +1 Sneak Attack die and +1 to hit when performing sneak attacks.
• Stealthy (1 AP): +[1/2/3] Hide and Move Silent. At tier 3: +1 Sneak Attack Die

Tier Two (5 AP Required)
• Poison Strikes (1 AP): Select one of three poisonous attacks
• Venomed Bades: Poison Stance: On hit: 1d[4/6/8] (+200 Melee Power) poison damage with weapon attacks.
• Bleed Them Out: Melee Attack: Deal +[1/2/3][W] damage and on successful damage causes your opponent to bleed. On Sneak Attac: Apply two stacks of bleed instead of one. The bleed effect can stack up to [5/10/15] times. (Cooldown: 6 seconds) (Bleed deals 1d6 (+200% Melee Power) damage every 2 seconds for 14 seconds.)
• Sneak Attack Training II (2 AP) [Requires: Sneak Attack Training I]: Grants +1 Sneak Attack die and +1 to hit when performing sneak attacks.
• Damage Boost: Activate to gain a +[10/20/30]% Action Boost bonus to weapon damage for 20 seconds. (Cooldown: 30 seconds)

Tier Three (10 AP Required)
• Poison Strikes (1 AP): Select one of three poisonous attacks
• Critical Accuracy (1 AP): +[1/2/3] to confirm Critical hits
• Bloodletter (1 AP) [Requires: Bleed Them Out]: Bleeding damage is increased to 1d[8/12/20] (+200% Melee Power). Additionally, bleeding enemies have their healing reduced by [15/30/50]%.
• Sneak Attack Training III (2 AP) [Requires: Sneak Attack Training II]: Grants +1 Sneak Attack die and +1 to hit when performing sneak attacks.
• Dexterity or Intelligence (2 AP): Choose one.

Tier Four (20 AP Required)
• Execute (1 AP): Melee Assassinate attack: +[1/2/3][W]. On sneak attack: Deal [100/250/500] additional damage. If the target is below [10/15/20]% health, trigger an Assassinate effect, instantly killing your target unless they make a fortitude save with a DC of (10 + Rogue Level + Int Modifier). (Cooldown: 30 seconds)
• Critical Damage (1 AP): +[1/2/3] critical hit damage (before weapon multipliers).
• Killer (1 AP): When you kill a target, gain +5% morale bonus to Doublestrike and Doubleshot for 15 seconds. Weak enemies will not always produce this effect. The killer buff can stack up to 2/3/4 times. When the duration of Killer expires, one stack is removed and the timer is reset.
• Sneak Attack Training IV (2 AP) [Requires: Sneak Attack Training III]: Grants +1 Sneak Attack die and +1 to hit when performing sneak attacks.
• Dexterity or Intelligence (2 AP): Choose one.

Tier Five (30 AP Required)
• Measure the Foe (1 AP): Gain +1 to the DCs of your Assassinate attacks every 3/2/1 second(s) you remain stealthed. This effect stacks up to 5 times.
• Into Oblivion (1 AP) [Requires: Measure the Foe]: Grants an additional +[1/2/3] bonus to the DCs of your Assassinate attacks. Additionally, monsters who are hit with an assassinate attack and save against or are immune to it, take an additional [3/6/10]d6 damage, and lose 25% fortification and 25% sneak attack immunity for 6 seconds.
• Nimbleness (1 AP): On Sneak Attack or Damaged: Up to once every 2 seconds, you gain 1% dodge for 6 seconds. This effect can stack up to [5/10] times.
• Sneak Attack Mastery (2 AP) [Requires: Sneak Attack Training IV]: Sneak Attacks deal [1/2] additional damage per die rolled. For example, if you deal 10d6 Sneak Attack Damage without Sneak Attack Mastery, you would deal 10d6+[10/20] sneak attack damage instead.
• Knife Specialization (2 AP): You gain a +1 Competence bonus to Critical Damage Multiplier with daggers and kukris. Daggers also gain a +1 Competence bonus to Critical Threat Range.

The Capstone is way too powerful. Exectute is way too weak to be a tier 4, the current version without a save is good enough, for the few times you can get it within the right amount of HP the 500 damage already kills it. Your Measure the Foe negates Assassin's Trick. Waiting almost 4 seconds without doing damage or sneak for a split second and Assassinate?

[Varinon]

The Capstone is way too powerful. Exectute is way too weak to be a tier 4, the current version without a save is good enough, for the few times you can get it within the right amount of HP the 500 damage already kills it. Your Measure the Foe negates Assassin's Trick. Waiting almost 4 seconds without doing damage or sneak for a split second and Assassinate?

Capstone is pretty powerful, I agree. I personally believe that taking 20 levels of a class should be adequately rewarded, but I'll think about it a bit more.

Not sure what you mean about Assassin's Trick and Measure the Foe. The change to Measure the Foe just made it stack up twice as fast. Change to Assassin's Trick changed it from a saveable active to a toggle.

My version of Execute is actually stronger, so I'm not sure where this comes from. Maybe I didn't explain it very well.

Execute (Live):
-Cost: 2 AP
-Damage Boost: +3[W]
-Sneak Attack Boost: If target is below 20% HP, 500 damage. Otherwise, nothing.
-Special: None
-Cooldown: 30s

Melee Assassinate attack: +3[W] damage. On sneak attack: If the target is below 20% health, deal 500 damage. (Cooldown: 30 seconds)

Execute (Mine, Rank 3): We'll assume we're at rank 3 for the maximum benefit
-Cost: 3 AP +1 AP Cost
-Damage Boost: +3[W] No change
-Sneak Attack Boost: +500 damage Always applies the 500 damage instead of only when the monster is low
-Special: If the target is below 20% HP, fortitude save or die. Has a chance to instantly kill, unlike the old one
-Cooldown: 30s No change

Melee Assassinate attack: +[1/2/3][W]. On sneak attack: Deal [100/250/500] additional damage. If the target is below [10/15/20]% health, trigger an Assassinate effect, instantly killing your target unless they make a fortitude save with a DC of (10 + Rogue Level + Int Modifier). (Cooldown: 30 seconds)

Edit: For Measure the Foe, did you mean Into Oblivion? Because I had intended for the two effects to stack (Into Oblivion + Assassins Trick = 50% reduction in fortitude and SA Immunity)

[Altrelo]

Capstone is pretty powerful, I agree. I personally believe that taking 20 levels of a class should be adequately rewarded, but I'll think about it a bit more.

Not sure what you mean about Assassin's Trick and Measure the Foe. The change to Measure the Foe just made it stack up twice as fast. Change to Assassin's Trick changed it from a saveable active to a toggle.

My version of Execute is actually stronger, so I'm not sure where this comes from. Maybe I didn't explain it very well.

Execute (Live):
-Cost: 2 AP
-Damage Boost: +3[W]
-Sneak Attack Boost: If target is below 20% HP, 500 damage. Otherwise, nothing.
-Special: None
-Cooldown: 30s

Melee Assassinate attack: +3[W] damage. On sneak attack: If the target is below 20% health, deal 500 damage. (Cooldown: 30 seconds)

Execute (Mine, Rank 3): We'll assume we're at rank 3 for the maximum benefit
-Cost: 3 AP +1 AP Cost
-Damage Boost: +3[W] No change
-Sneak Attack Boost: +500 damage Always applies the 500 damage instead of only when the monster is low
-Special: If the target is below 20% HP, fortitude save or die. Has a chance to instantly kill, unlike the old one
-Cooldown: 30s No change

Melee Assassinate attack: +[1/2/3][W]. On sneak attack: Deal [100/250/500] additional damage. If the target is below [10/15/20]% health, trigger an Assassinate effect, instantly killing your target unless they make a fortitude save with a DC of (10 + Rogue Level + Int Modifier). (Cooldown: 30 seconds)

Edit: For Measure the Foe, did you mean Into Oblivion? Because I had intended for the two effects to stack (Into Oblivion + Assassins Trick = 50% reduction in fortitude and SA Immunity)

I see, I apologize as I did not see the toggle. And yes, I meant Into Oblivion. If Assassins Trick did become a toggle, it would be wonderful. Though for a tier 3 Core, it's a bit powerful, just look at Ninja Spy. Though having it early saves against the headache that Elementals are. Your enhancements are actually quite solid, my fingers won't allow me to type anything better! Though I do wonder if it's perhaps too much reduction? With fort bypass items, it seems it could become a bit too much. Rogue's should be weak to undead and elementals.

[Varinon]

I see, I apologize as I did not see the toggle. And yes, I meant Into Oblivion. If Assassins Trick did become a toggle, it would be wonderful. Though for a tier 3 Core, it's a bit powerful, just look at Ninja Spy. Though having it early saves against the headache that Elementals are. Your enhancements are actually quite solid, my fingers won't allow me to type anything better! Though I do wonder if it's perhaps too much reduction? With fort bypass items, it seems it could become a bit too much. Rogue's should be weak to undead and elementals.

I wouldn't be against reducing Assassin's Trick down to a 20% penetration, and then Into Oblivion into 5%/10%/15% (For a total of 35%). This would make the total possible equal to:

35% (Assassin Tree)
35% (Armor Piercing 35%)
25% Precision
10% Opportunist
15% Grim Precision III
10% Improved Sunder
15% Destruction item
=145%.

Sounds high, but current live you can get to 135%.
This does not include other ways of reducing fortification outside of the Rogue class (and shadowdancer), nor specific fortification bypasses like Wrack Construct.
Other Sources:
GMoF: 10% Piercing Clarity
FotW: 10% Insult
AoV: 50% Shield of Condemnation
Monk: 25% Touch of Despair
Total = 230% (On live)

+Note: Most sources of fortification bypass do not also provide Sneak Attack Immunity reduction.

[MalarKan]

Well, after 6 pure rogue lives i finally decided to start getting some useful past lives just so i can make my pure rogue rogue have a stronger future. And i started with an 8pal/6/monk/6rogue halfling build. I have to confess that i am so sad to find out how stronger it currently is, and it anoys me so much how even being strenght based it can buff up to get near 80s reflex versus traps and its only lvl 25 still. Also i feel anoyed by how... ok, i understand how logic fits on an artificer getting high trap skills since it tinkers with devices and constructs for a living, but a rogue DISABLES and tinkers with TRAPS for a living! I would suggest rogues gets core bonuses to all trap skills which scalesfor certain class levels taken, for instance, granted class feats for traps like Uncanny Dodge; bonuses which would be like a +10 to traps upong hitting level 20 and would be doubled for having a Mechanic capstone (i know im just exagerating the bonuses, but you guy get that im just throwing you the idea), perhaps it doesnt need to be a feat but... what about a +1 to search, spot, disable and open lock for each core ability taken in a rogue tree, +2 in the mech tree with a +5 in mech capstone. This same idea might work with some new needed bonuses for reflex saves vs traps, but ill get to his later.

Also, i really wanted to see in this game a link between dodge and tumble. I dreamed about having your tumble skill being useful for something else other than cool mechanics and fall down damage taken, i dreamed about having (for monks, rangers and obvously acrobat rogues) something like having 5/10/15% of your tumble skill be added as a dodge bonus while centered or haste/skill/damage boosted (heck, maybe even just added permanently)... why not, maybe added even as stackable bonus to reflex save vs traps, since it breaks my heart seeing Cha (or even Str) based heavily armored paladins have more reflex than a Dex based rogue.

I specialized in playing a brute staff rogue, and before i tried the divine stick im trying atm it was a human pure rogue strenght based. It anoyed me how Sweeping strikes, 10+half rogue level + Dex mod to cleaved-trip effect, would use only HALF of rogue levels... this needs to be changed to full rogue levels so it could become really usable... but dont change it to strenght mod, it belongs with Dex

Also...

Yeah, if Improved Feint is fixed, Combat expertise would be nice to have to get it lol. Even if you dont have it turned on because you have PA or Precision on.

... as for combat expertice, my previous human build managed to take Power Attack & combat Expertice, it trully was nice to have for several "oh sh*t!" situations since activating it would give me a really nice PRR bonus with L'dread destiny on.

aaaannnd thats all i can think of for now... §alutes!

[Varinon]

<snip>
Also, i really wanted to see in this game a link between dodge and tumble. I dreamed about having your tumble skill being useful for something else other than cool mechanics and fall down damage taken
<snip>

Every 10 ranks of tumble giving you 1% dodge would be not only really neat, but also pretty well balanced and not game-breaking. Tumble spell might even see a itsy-bitsy tiny amount of use.

[Saekee]

the more skills become relevent, the more INT rogues shine

[Arkantios]

Every 10 ranks of tumble giving you 1% dodge would be not only really neat, but also pretty well balanced and not game-breaking. Tumble spell might even see a itsy-bitsy tiny amount of use.

Dude, yes please.

Capstone is pretty powerful, I agree. I personally believe that taking 20 levels of a class should be adequately rewarded, but I'll think about it a bit more.

Personally, I know it's a bit much, but there really does need to be more of a reason to stay pure.

the more skills become relevent, the more INT rogues shine

Yeah, but let's make sure we arent pushing ourselves into the "Oh, you're not a pure int rogue, you must be a gimp" corner.