U23 Items Feedback thread

[Nascoe]

snip -

This is the other item that many seemed to think was overpowered; it's likely to be toned down a bit, or swap an effect or two with other items.

More to come, just wanted to split this into multiple posts.

As for the overpowered items - is it an option to tone down the "epic" item and make the current, stronger, version a mythic item?

[Psiandron]

Now about the armor

You are aware that Mithral reduces the PRR and thus MRR of armor right? Also these are epic level 27 armors forget greater nimbleness they should be using Epic Nimbleness.
Also most everyone that cannot cast haste takes the feat for permanent haste thus Haste guard isn't particularly useful.
Also consider increasing the Elemental Resistance to 35-40 because a single augment at level 25 can give 30 resistance to all elements.
Just so you know the light armor should have no less than a max dex bonus of 18.
There's a goodly number of dex based, light armor builds and the greatest max dex bonus currently shown on these armors is 14.
Are you trying to force dex based builds into robes/outfits?

The Mithral property is planned to be removed from these armors. This may be present in Round 2 of Lamannia, not sure.

I likes your answer to Aelonwy's point Steel, but I would ask that you guys go a step further. Now or in the near future would you please remove the 'mithral' designation from all items. While mithral is an iconic material in the world of fantasy, since Turbine nerfed mithral the property only serves to denigrate an item. If you guys don't want to support the concept of mithral that's fine, just please remove it from the game. And, could you also just remove it from the game in such a way that it is expunged from existing items as well.

Thanks, really did enjoy the first round look at u23 and looking forward to round 2.

[Delacroix21]

Steel...


The players are in agreement with some of these items being subpar and are actually AGREEING (which is rare) on which aspects of the items are weak. But rather then listen to your playerbase are you really just going to sit there and argue with them?


If you think a reflex save +10 belongs on an item then you dont play this game or do so VERY casually as EVERY capped player has a resist ALL item +10 equipped.

[patang01]

Epic Boots of the Innocent - Boots - Resistance +11, Speed XV, Vertigo +12, Stunning +12, Tendon Slice 6%, Shatter +12, Greater Heroism Upgradeable - Primary Augment (Yellow, Blue), Upgradeable - Secondary Augment (Green)

If I would change this I'd remove the Speed - there are plenty of items with better speed. I would also remove Greater Heroism and perhaps with a weak item, but in a unique position and add it to that. Keep the boots consolidated for tactical feat and resistance. It makes it unique. If you break those up you make the boots pointless.

Epic Mentau's Goggles - Goggles - Seeker +10, Seeker +2, Ghostly, Use Magical Device +5, Insightful Strength +4, Strength +11 Upgradeable - Primary Augment (Yellow, Blue), Upgradeable - Secondary Augment (Green)

I suggest removing the UMD. There are plenty of other items with UMD. And if that's still too strong, remove seeker +10 but make it insightful seeker +5 instead so you can combine them with another seeker item. Synergy in items is better then piecemeal all over the place.

[Steelstar]

Steel...

The players are in agreement with some of these items being subpar and are actually AGREEING (which is rare) on which aspects of the items are weak. But rather then listen to your playerbase are you really just going to sit there and argue with them?

If you think a reflex save +10 belongs on an item then you dont play this game or do so VERY casually as EVERY capped player has a resist ALL item +10 equipped.

Our above posts don't mention anything one way or the other about the +10 to individual saves. Peoples' opinions on that were rather clear; it didn't require a response. Message heard, many players don't like the +10 to individual saves.

Furthermore, the playing habits of particular developers is irrelevant to this discussion, and comments like that violate Community Guidelines.

The purpose of this thread is to gather feedback for the purpose of improving these items. Part of that process is clarifying the reasoning behind some of the design, which is what the above posts were intended to do; not to argue, but to clarify.

If you have further feedback, we're glad to hear it, as long as it's presented in a manner within the Community Guidelines.

[bbqzor]

The effect on Knives Eternal is the same one as is on the Harness, so it would theoretically act the same. If it's not working for Ranged weapons, please file a bug and let us know which weapon(s) you tried it with, thanks.

Just to reiterate, I tested and posted the same thing in my feedback. The Spiked effect only works on melee attacks, not spells, rune-arms, or ranged. It needs fixing.

The Strength and Constitution bonuses of Blood Rage stack with everything - If your character's built in a way that relies on Self-Healing via Magic (yes, we know that's a lot of characters at this point), this is probably not the best item for that character.
We may make some adjustments to the effects of Blood Rage, but the prevention of spellcasting while under the effect is likely to stay.

Wait what? In addition to an un-resistable slow effect on your character from fatigue, this now blocks the ability to cast spells? Which it doesnt mention anywhere in the effects, nor did it used to, nor was the change announced? This item is vendor trash then. Also, what gives with nerfing a bad effect more and not telling anyone.

If you make "some adjustments", they basically MUST include completely removing the fatigue issue. Especially if its going to lock out casting. The only class that can really manage that at this point is maybe Barbarian, only a fatigued barb is a dead barb. And its not a fatigue which is blocked by like, oh I dont know, the lv18 immune to fatigue barb ability. And if the barb pass in U24 gives them "spell" abilities then even that goes. So yea... this item... vendor trash. No spells and a slow, cant wait to loot that...

To paraphrase from earlier: There are INT-based casters who are not Pale Masters, and those can definitely use the absorption.

Artificers? Not too many non-pm wizards anymore, and those that are would certainly prefer Diefic Diadem instead for the DC. Meaning just assassins left for int-based. If either of those has a ring slot free for this, Id like to see the rest of their itemization choices. This item just doesnt fit well into any type of setup. Seems to suggest you guys spend a lot of time looking at individual items, and less at groups of items together. At any rate, cannith crafting offers more absorption, far as item swaps. Its just a poor combination of things to appeal to any mainstream situation I can think of, I hope it gets reworked. If you wont drop the absorb for wiz, maybe you can add wis/cha or something so it appeals to other non-int casters. Something like that.

The Mithral property is planned to be removed from these armors. This may be present in Round 2 of Lamannia, not sure.

Okay... will this change the medium one back to heavy? Will the ASF and MDB be manually adjusted or reverted? Is the intent to have "mithral" stats with "heavy" armor, or just delete mithral and have the armors remain low-dex etc. Guess we can wait and see, just wondering what the intent was.

The Mabar armors' version has a much lower caster level.

*Snaps fingers* "Oh No You Didnt!" Hate to break it to you, but that was not a good reply.

Mabar is 5 (yes, FIVE) changes of CL14. Thats 70 minutes per shrine, which still maintains usefulness through 4 dispel effects. The new armor is one charge of 25 min. Useful 25 min per shrine, and through ZERO dispel effects.

My request to go 3/day makes it 75 min/shrine, almost exactly the same as mabar, but of course still worse since its only good through half as many dispels. Pointing to caster level in defense here is pointless, that value has zero bearing on the effect being used. Why would that even be brought up? In players' eyes, its essentially a non issue. Its a function of how many dispels can you take, and how many minutes of buff do you have.

Im not saying this has to be equal to mabar (5x25 min.. man I hope quests never take that long). But it shouldnt be worse than say, Goggles of Shielding, or one of the old legacy 3/3 shield clicky rings, or any number of other things like that which maintain use beyond a single charge. Its level 28 loot man. 3/day is more than resonable. If you want to drop the CL to 20, since its just "epic" and not necessarily "epic on a guy with exalted active boosting his CL" okay fine. 3x20 is preferrable to 1x25. And is only worth 80% of mabar, if youre worried about eclipsing that item in any fashion.

------------

Thanks for posting some replies, and giving us the chance to see which areas require more/better/additional explanation on our part. I am fully committed to being as detailed as possible, providing whatever examples and situations are needed to ensure you have the appropriate information to make this item pass the first one with no serious misses. The Nightshield situation is a prime example, obviously you guys felt a huge CL would make it desirable, but for players, thats not what we're looking for. But theres no way for us to know thats the bit to highlight without this discussion. I hope you get the chance to provide more feedback during a beta phase where items are the focus, rather than other adjustments. Because there is a lot of item work needed, whether its my feedback or someone elses we just arent there yet and the items have far too many loose ends or slightly misplaced stats. Rather than go on here, I'll wait for more feedback to discuss, or actual item pass changes to hit lamma. Thanks for the chance to provide this, I hope much more of it is taken to heart this round than in previous cases. Cheers.

[Desonde]

In regards to Ring of Unknown Origins;

It's very utilitarian. This was an interesting one to bring into Epics, as the Heroic version wasn't a whole lot better in terms of the issues you state here; the direction we went was "As many immunities as could work on one item". It may be best as a swap item for some people, and that's probably fine. If any of you have suggestions about how to improve this item while keeping the spirit of the Heroic one, we're all ears!

You'll also have to look at triple negative greensteel items as well when designing this item, as it stands you have;

3xNeg Greensteel item = min level 11, Blindness Immunity, Fear Immunity, Resist Disease +6, Resist Poison +6, Deathblock, Symbold of Weakness clicky and slay living guard
Heroic Ring of Unknown Origins = min level 13, Disease +6, Poison +6, Intelligence +5, Charisma +5 and Yellow Augment.
Epic Ring of Unknown Origins = min level 27, Disease +8, Poison +8, Fear Immunity, Blindness Immunity, Whirlwind Ward, option to add 2 non-red Augment slots.

Do the two augment slots, +2 to the saves of Disease and Poison, and Whirlwind Ward warrant a 16 level difference to the existing choice immunity item while losing deathblock?
Is gaining one augment slot, +2 to the saves of Disease and Poison, and changing the +5 int and char bonus for fear and blindness immunity worth 14 level difference?

If you want to epicify this item look at either total disease and poison immunity (since the +6 version already grants no fail on 1 the +8 version is only +2 to the saves) or Epic Proof Against Poison/Disease +6 [If you fail a save you get 1 re-roll], replace fear immunity with Greater Heroism, keep Blindness Immunity, replace Whirlwind Ward with Immunity to Knockdown. Even if it just get immunity to knockdown and GH it'll be enough to warrant a ml of 27 or 28.

If you want to keep it inline with the Heroic version; either total disease and poison immunity (since the +6 version already grants no fail on 1 the +8 version is only +2 to the saves) or Epic Proof Against Poison/Disease +6 [If you fail a save you get 1 re-roll] and insightful Int and Char +4.

[PermaBanned]

The Strength and Constitution bonuses of Blood Rage stack with everything - If your character's built in a way that relies on Self-Healing via Magic (yes, we know that's a lot of characters at this point), this is probably not the best item for that character.

We may make some adjustments to the effects of Blood Rage, but the prevention of spellcasting while under the effect is likely to stay.

I specifically mentioned self healing as I consider it to be the most critical hindrance of the item, however it is far from the only important one - for instance most self healing options can be used to aid an ally in need - but not while this item is in effect.

My advice for adjusting the item is this: look at the combined list of Racial and Class enhancements + item Clickies Blood Rage interferes with, and ask your selves: "What (if anything) is left that this will not interfere with?" and "Who/what can receive more benefit than hindrance by equipping this effect?" I assure you that in it's current form, after compiling the list and answering the first question the answer to the second will be somewhere between "few and none."

If the list of "What's left that this doesn't interfere with?" can't be made sizable, and the question of "Who would get more benefit than hindrance by equipping this effect?" remains between few and none, then the effect's presence will cause that piece of loot to be dropped like a hot potato. I know, "Not all loot needs to be usable by all characters" but it should at least have some kind of "target audience." Who/what is Blodd Rage's target audience?

[G_Lich]

Great feedback dump, this has inspired me to try and give better concise feedback for more stuff this weekend now that I feel like we are being heard. Posters please keep feedback short and sweet and give replacement suggestions and if you dont like something, tell why but dont write a book. Remember this has already been through PC and devs have their big picture reasons for doing stuff and also the workload to match. Help devs help us.

non-fluffpost suggestion: a -10% repair amp would be a solid workable penalty for more power on the runearm. But the fire speed is super slow and ee damage is not worth charging. Seeing the harper tree gives artis a better place to spend the bulk of their points than BE so there had better be a **** good reason to charge and fire the runearm as opposed to simply wearing it as gear.

[Urjak]

... snip ...

4. The effect on Knives Eternal is the same one as is on the Harness, so it would theoretically act the same. If it's not working for Ranged weapons, please file a bug and let us know which weapon(s) you tried it with, thanks.

Last I checked (on Lamma as I don't have the Harness on live), the piercing damage proc worked with shurikens BUT it was exclusive with the negative damage from the Dragon Masque => only one of them works at a time - if I remember correctly it was the item equipped first ... so put on masque, put on harness for negative dmg proc; or put on harness put on masque for piercing proc ... no idea if it changed since .....

The Strength and Constitution bonuses of Blood Rage stack with everything - If your character's built in a way that relies on Self-Healing via Magic (yes, we know that's a lot of characters at this point), this is probably not the best item for that character.

We may make some adjustments to the effects of Blood Rage, but the prevention of spellcasting while under the effect is likely to stay.

Well, then probably noone will care about this item - a minor strength and constitution bonus that prevents all SLAs, spells, scrolls and clickies - absolutely not worth it (with the exception of making screenshots for the Achievement forums - but there are easier ways to get a Blood Rage item just for that ...)

It's very utilitarian. This was an interesting one to bring into Epics, as the Heroic version wasn't a whole lot better in terms of the issues you state here; the direction we went was "As many immunities as could work on one item". It may be best as a swap item for some people, and that's probably fine. If any of you have suggestions about how to improve this item while keeping the spirit of the Heroic one, we're all ears!

If you really want to make that ring better:
Reduce the ML to 20! There is not OP effect on it that would make people overly powerful at that level BUT as you already stated - it would help with slot consolidation - and in my experience the problem with slots is biggest during leveling as one has to constantly adapt to the ever-changing gear layout as more powerful items become available again on every other level up. IMO if it were ML 20 it would keep its spirit AND be a useful leveling item for people grinding epic past lives ...

[Sebastrd]

In reference to Scorching Sun scaling with melee power...

Unlikely, at least for now (same with other proc effects listed in your post).

Isn't that the whole point of melee power? How exactly are you deciding which effects will/won't scale?

[Shade_z]

Epic Boots of the Innocent are way too OP. Remove perma GH from those. Buffs are the things that make classes like bards a different from say fighters. If you give bard/caster buffs to everyone then why would anyone want to play a bard.

[JOTMON]

Epic Boots of the Innocent are way too OP. Remove perma GH from those. Buffs are the things that make classes like bards a different from say fighters. If you give bard/caster buffs to everyone then why would anyone want to play a bard.

Worrying about GH on a level 27 toon?

Nah, let the bard buff something else.

Perma-GH is just fine, saves me using scrolls and level 9 clickies, this is something that deserves to be permanent for epic level/endgame gear.

[BananaHat]

The Sheltering may be a bit low, we'll investigate that. That said, it may be the only Neck-slot item with Healing Amp.

FYI, the other healing amp in the neck slot would be the Finger Necklace. http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Finger_Necklace

This item is, of course, from Litany of the Dead! This item definitely needs an epic/mythic version in this update!

For those that don't know, this 10% healing amp is from a special, super secret source called Fleshmaker. This item has the dubious honor of being additive rather than multiplicative, which it now shares with the new guild ship buff for healing amp. The old guild ship healing amp buff was multiplicative. What this means is that the order in which you equip your items matters for the finger necklace as you want to get the additive effect as early in to your multiplicative chain as possible. It is nice that it does work in conjunction with other 10% healing amp sources even if it is less powerful, so don't take that away!

Example:
Level 20 healing amp monk with 3 paladin past lives, equipping finger necklace last and getting new ship buff last
1.05^3*1.05^6*1.1^3*(1.1*1.2)*1.3*1.25*(1.03*1.03* 1.04)*1.1 + .1 + .1 = 5.57538 so 557% healing amp
Pal. PL * Monk shintao * human H.A. * DT armor with 10%/20% * 30% such as PDK gloves * Jidz-tetka in fire stance * Twisted purity of essence * Unyielding or Divine crusader + Finger necklace + new ship H.A. buff

Level 20 healing amp monk with 3 paladin past lives, equipping finger necklace as early as possible and getting old ship buff
[1.05^3*1.05^6*1.1^3 + .1]*1.1*(1.1*1.2)*1.3*1.25*(1.03*1.03*1.04)*1.1 = 6.199288 so 620% healing amp
[Pal. PL * Monk shintao * human H.A. + finger necklace]* old ship buff * DT armor with 10%/20% * 30% such as PDK gloves * Jidz-tetka in fire stance * Twisted purity of essence * Unyielding or Divine crusader

Basically 11% more healing amp if you equip in the right order and use the old ship buff. Ticking over that 600% mark is really only crucial for stuff like vampirism or the healing curse.

My monk just started on the journey for the paladin past lives, so I'm not quite there yet, but I was able to get over 400% and it is fun. Can you tell that character is a healing amp junkie? If the new necklace was an upgrade from the finger necklace (say a 15% multiplicative or additive stacking bonus) or if there is an epic/mythic finger necklace in the works, that would be sweet.

Steelstar, consider yourself updated on (at least my understanding of) the healing amp mechanics. Can we please have it added to the character sheet now?

[Vengeance777]

It's very utilitarian. This was an interesting one to bring into Epics, as the Heroic version wasn't a whole lot better in terms of the issues you state here; the direction we went was "As many immunities as could work on one item". It may be best as a swap item for some people, and that's probably fine. If any of you have suggestions about how to improve this item while keeping the spirit of the Heroic one, we're all ears!

You guys missed a few immunities. Not sure if they are incompatible with the other effects or not. If not can some of the following Immunities be looked at and maybe some or all added to it:

Soundproof - Immunity to the stuns of Greater Shout and Soundburst would be nice on a non robe item.

Web Immunity - This is currently only found on 1 item in the game the Widow Weave Cloak from Whisperdoom.

Immunity to Slippery Surfaces or scratch Immunity to Slippery Surfaces and Web Immunity and just put FOM on it. Though FOM may make the item unbalanced. Not sure.

Anchoring - Immunity to Banishment currently only available on the Boots of Anchoring. Would be nice to be able to run TOD on a level 28 and keep our level 28 boots on.

Also may want to consider adding Deathblock and Intercession Ward to the ring even though a lot of items have had those already. Would still be useful for some builds and gear layouts.

And While not technically immunities you may want to consider these as well as they are as useful as the Disease and Poison resists and hard to come by on endgame equipment:

Enchantment Save +6 - The stacking save vs Enchantment spells that stacks with Resistance. Currently only available through Cannith crafting and on the Heroic Necro 4 items Adherance, Belt of Tongue, neither of which appears to have been epic'd.

Chaosguarde - All the items with this are currently level 9 items. Would be a nice jester to Paladins to give them Chaosguarde on an endgame item.

Protection from Evil - Makes you immune to Dominate Person, Command and Greater Command and is very hard to fit in end game gear considering the only items with it are low level items Silver Flame Trinket, Silver Flame Necklace and the outdated Mournload Armor. Also The Greater Command immunity on the item and spell versions stopped working a while back and needs to be fixed.

[ThomasHunter]

Steel,

Reading the last page of the thread, I noticed the comment about Mithral. While it lowers the "type" (Heavy becomes Medium for example), why not give Mithral an inherent bonus to MRR and PRR? Seems like that would allow you to keep Mithral in the game and make it special again. On the surface, it certainly seems "easy" enough.

Thanks for listening!

[kmoustakas]

Questions: are these ALL the items or are we going to have more released at some point? I see no epic blue fire necklace, no finger necklace, no twinblade, no unwavering

[Steelstar]

Questions: are these ALL the items or are we going to have more released at some point?

The items in the Cabinet on Lamannia are all the items currently planned for this update.

[Sokól]

Perma-GH is just fine, saves me using scrolls and level 9 clickies, this is something that deserves to be permanent for epic level/endgame gear.

I agree it is just very annoying to have cast this on your self every 10 to 15 min...

[Lifespawn]

The items in the Cabinet on Lamannia are all the items currently planned for this update.

Partial loot from the area partial loot from raid and litany is not epic very sad day I was really looking forward to All the orchard loot being upgraded.