Developers: what about Two Weapon Fighting?

[SilkofDrasnia]

What proxy nerf? Sometimes nerfs are to make things more balanced and are good things. Nerf is too easily thrown around these parts. SWF is really good, but I haven't experienced it being that much more powerful than the other fighting styles.

See this post for some math.

I am not a mathematician but it seems on par.

[Bridge_Dweller]

TWF is getting a minor buff in the cooldowns for some tempest abilities . . .

Nonsense, those abilities are still a waste of AP.

[Varinon]

Nonsense, those abilities are still a waste of AP.

It is a very minor minuscule almost non-existent buff. But it's still a buff!

[apep1412]

It doesn't.

I have the feeling that my rogue will soon be a bard or monk.

[LrdSlvrhnd]

Point of information: Melee power from each combat style has the bonus type Combat Style.

With the current design, having all Shield, SWF, and THF feats gives +20 Melee Power total.

So to be clear, they don't stack? (Useful info for swashbuckling SWF bards, or sword-and-board with bastard swords/dwarven axes)

[Qhualor]

See this post for some math.

I am not a mathematician but it seems on par.

heres the problem with that post among a lot of the other math posts. at best, DDO math can be used as a guide. all it does is compare one thing to another and they are not the same. they are different styles of fighting. these kinds of posts compare what is assumed would be what a player would use without taking into account

play style
skill
in quest buffs/guild buffs
mobs
movement
debuffs
enhancements/feats
pure/multiclass
weapons
?

not everyone builds the same, plays the same, uses the same weapons, chooses the same enhancements and fights mobs the same. there are just too many variables to consider to make DDO math correct. put an ESOS in a barbs hands and it doesn't automatically make him the best dps in the group. someone who uses Blitz doesn't automatically make him the best dps in the group. someone who copies and pastes FOTM builds from the forums doesn't automatically make him the best dps in the group. all these examples could mean they are the weakest link if they don't not only build for dps, but also know how to utilize that build for its max potential. I see it all the time on the forums that Monkchers are OP and SWF is better than THF and TWF, but its the abilities that people are really talking about. most players aren't going to be able to maximize and utilize the power potential. its the elite players that will benefit from it more than others. in all the pug groups ive been in since Swashbucklers and SWF has come out, ive seen some really good dps SWF builds (not necessarily bards), but none ive seen I thought were over the top good. same thing with THF. there are pros and cons to each fighting style, but im not seeing that much of a difference to say TWF is far behind the other styles.

now that Lama is up, we will see how good this melee power is and if its something that really should be added to TWF. ill be on there myself checking some stuff out, so if there really is a proxy nerf, ill be right back here changing my tune. if not, than ill hold firm with my stance.

[levy1964]

any1 read this from lamannia relase note ?
Tempest : Dance of Death now has a 15 second cooldown, so Melee Dual Wielding Attack: Deals +1/+3/+5[W] damage. Your basic attacks when dual wielding strike 2/3/4 targets per swing instead of one for 6 seconds with 15 second cooldown
The Growing Storm now has a 30 second cooldown Melee Dual Wielding Attack: Attacks an opponent. For the next 5/10/15 seconds, each time you damage an opponent you gain +1 damage for 5 seconds. This effect can stack up to 10 times.

u cry about: what about Two Weapon Fighting? but give me reason bk again to ranger and stay TWF. good job Dev's i waiting for this

[A-O]

heres the problem with that post among a lot of the other math posts. at best, DDO math can be used as a guide. all it does is compare one thing to another and they are not the same. they are different styles of fighting. these kinds of posts compare what is assumed would be what a player would use without taking into account

play style
skill
in quest buffs/guild buffs
mobs
movement
debuffs
enhancements/feats
pure/multiclass
weapons
?

not everyone builds the same, plays the same, uses the same weapons, chooses the same enhancements and fights mobs the same.

That's the same fallacy that's been posted a bazzilion number of times. The damage model proposed here is *not* meant to represent actual ingame damage output to the number.
Throwing in player skill, environmental factors and similar things is just absolutely unnecessary and ruins the purpose of a damage calculation. All these things will affect different builds similarly, therefore one can simply eliminate the variable and
get a more accurate number.

[Qhualor]

That's the same fallacy that's been posted a bazzilion number of times. The damage model proposed here is *not* meant to represent actual ingame damage output to the number.
Throwing in player skill, environmental factors and similar things is just absolutely unnecessary and ruins the purpose of a damage calculation. All these things will affect different builds similarly, therefore one can simply eliminate the variable and
get a more accurate number.

actually it in fact has everything to do with calculations. the fallacy is disregarding anything beyond basic math.

[SilkofDrasnia]

heres the problem with that post among a lot of the other math posts. at best, DDO math can be used as a guide. all it does is compare one thing to another and they are not the same. they are different styles of fighting. these kinds of posts compare what is assumed would be what a player would use without taking into account

play style
skill
in quest buffs/guild buffs
mobs
movement
debuffs
enhancements/feats
pure/multiclass
weapons
?

not everyone builds the same, plays the same, uses the same weapons, chooses the same enhancements and fights mobs the same. there are just too many variables to consider to make DDO math correct. put an ESOS in a barbs hands and it doesn't automatically make him the best dps in the group. someone who uses Blitz doesn't automatically make him the best dps in the group. someone who copies and pastes FOTM builds from the forums doesn't automatically make him the best dps in the group. all these examples could mean they are the weakest link if they don't not only build for dps, but also know how to utilize that build for its max potential. I see it all the time on the forums that Monkchers are OP and SWF is better than THF and TWF, but its the abilities that people are really talking about. most players aren't going to be able to maximize and utilize the power potential. its the elite players that will benefit from it more than others. in all the pug groups ive been in since Swashbucklers and SWF has come out, ive seen some really good dps SWF builds (not necessarily bards), but none ive seen I thought were over the top good. same thing with THF. there are pros and cons to each fighting style, but im not seeing that much of a difference to say TWF is far behind the other styles.

now that Lama is up, we will see how good this melee power is and if its something that really should be added to TWF. ill be on there myself checking some stuff out, so if there really is a proxy nerf, ill be right back here changing my tune. if not, than ill hold firm with my stance.

No kidding which is why I let other do the math check it quick see if it seem on par but then compare it to what I experience in game. My wife and I duo everything except raids...guess what even though I have all gear great for my main melee, drowpesh etc etc you name I now , especially in heroics which is 2/3 of the game, use thf weapons. Guardian needle, carni, sos as it beats twf, lol my gs lit khops stay in the tr cache too

Only time twf is better is if you want to kill things tediously one at a time. We gather them up and mow them down and yes at level or under on elite. if you really want to balance the fighting lines they need to be balanced by themslves regardless of any build. After that if a build is way OP then it is not the fault of twf or thf or swg but the various builds themselves that needs looking into.

Lots of the OPness is due to muticlassing itself but that's another problem..

[A-O]

actually it in fact has everything to do with calculations. the fallacy is disregarding anything beyond basic math.

That makes zero sense. How does player skill affect how two builds / fighting styles compare to each other? If I wanted to know if I better build an SWF rogue or a TWF rogue, wouldn't a DPS calculation give me the answer?

[ArcaneArcher52689]

Damage Comparisons:

Single-Weapon Fighting (3.29 Attacks Per Second)
Example: ((+[W](Average rapier damage) + (Stat mod * SWF feat bonus) + Enhancement Bonus) * Melee Power) * Attack Speed) = Result

Result: (((3.5(3.5)) + (20*1.5) + 9)1.85)3.29 = 311.933125 Damage-Per-Second

Two-Handed Fighting (2.53 Attacks Per Second) (Glancing Blows not included)
Example: ((+[W](Average Falchion Damage) + (Stat mod * innate THF multiplier) + enhancement bonus + TF on-hits) * Melee Power) *Attack Speed = Result

Result: (((3.5(5)) + (20*1.5) + 9)1.85)2.53 = 264.44825 Damage-Per-Second

Two-Weapon Fighting (2.67 Mainhand and 1.77 Offhand attacks per second)
Example ((+[W](Average Rapier Damage) + (Stat mod) + Enhancement Bonus) * Melee Power) * Attack Speed) = Mainhand Damage
((+[W](Average Rapier Damage) + (Stat mod * Offhand penalty) + Enhancement Bonus) * Melee Power) * Attack Speed) = Offhand Damage
Total Damage = Offhand Damage + Mainhand Damage

Main Hand: (((3.5(3.5)) + (20) + 9)1.65)2.67 = 181.726875
Off Hand: (((3.5(3.5)) + (20*.5) + 9)1.65)1.77 = 91.265625
Total: 272.9925 Damage-Per-Second

Results:

As procs don't scale with MP, the main advantage of TWF is falling further and further behind. It's almost worse than THF single-target damage at this point, and a long way behind SWF. It really needs that extra +20 MP too, to even be relevant.

Food for thought, anyway.

Edit: Now let me go read the 20+ replies that have happened since I started writing this post...
Edit2: Don't forget that this is done without glancing blows, THF is #1 DPS if there's even one extra target for glancing blows to hit.

Using your math and backtracking, adding 20 melee power to twf would put them at 306.0825, which is still a bit behind. You also don't take into account someone w/ +10% offhand strike enhancements, which would give you 284.33625. If you give twf 20 melee power AND 10% off hand, you get ~319.6775

What I'd actually recommend is knocking the 20 Melee power bonus from swf off, which brings swf down to 278.21065

THF would still rule over aoe, swf would be slightly higher than twf w/o enhancements, and twf would be slighlty better w/ investment

a couple other alternatives I'd consider:
adding 10% offhand strike chance to PTWF- would get everyone up to 90%, some up to 100%
make ptwf require twf-takes 5% doubletstrike away from SWF

[Qhualor]

That makes zero sense. How does player skill affect how two builds / fighting styles compare to each other? If I wanted to know if I better build an SWF rogue or a TWF rogue, wouldn't a DPS calculation give me the answer?

knowing when to use abilities in mob fights that increase damage

twitch skills

knowing to move and hit or making mobs dizzy

sneak attacks, even when you are not a rogue

killing faster than you need healing

a dps calculation is only good for knowing what gear you are wearing, what enhancements and feats you are taking, what weapons you are taking, etc. a dps calculation doesn't take into account buffs or mobs you will be fighting because you wont always be buffed to the gills or using the same weapon all the time. a dps calculation is just going to give you a general idea of your dps potential.

[SilkofDrasnia]

knowing when to use abilities in mob fights that increase damage

twitch skills

knowing to move and hit or making mobs dizzy

sneak attacks, even when you are not a rogue

killing faster than you need healing

a dps calculation is only good for knowing what gear you are wearing, what enhancements and feats you are taking, what weapons you are taking, etc. a dps calculation doesn't take into account buffs or mobs you will be fighting because you wont always be buffed to the gills or using the same weapon all the time. a dps calculation is just going to give you a general idea of your dps potential.

And if you really "skillful" you do not need to hop around and wiggle and just stand there and kill em all. I presume you are talking about EE here at least I hope so...

Having basic experience to know when to smite or not when to cleave or not when to pop a heal scroll etc etc has not much to do with the discussion, it has more to do with if you suck and then any build OP or not will not help you till you learn better.

A dps calc gives us an indication on whether the various builds will acerbate any problems.

[Wongar]

That makes zero sense. How does player skill affect how two builds / fighting styles compare to each other? If I wanted to know if I better build an SWF rogue or a TWF rogue, wouldn't a DPS calculation give me the answer?

In my opinion, DPS math is a crude estimate at best and at least for me does not reflect actual effective DPS in game at all. For example, all the math I ran suggested that S&B should have the lowest DPS of any fighting style, yet for me and how I play I can run quests as fast or faster with a S&B build than I can with a comparable TWF or THF build. If you only look at the math you will miss a great deal of how it actually plays.

[A-O]

knowing when to use abilities in mob fights that increase damage

twitch skills

knowing to move and hit or making mobs dizzy

sneak attacks, even when you are not a rogue

killing faster than you need healing

a dps calculation is only good for knowing what gear you are wearing, what enhancements and feats you are taking, what weapons you are taking, etc. a dps calculation doesn't take into account buffs or mobs you will be fighting because you wont always be buffed to the gills or using the same weapon all the time. a dps calculation is just going to give you a general idea of your dps potential.

Again, you misunderstand what a DPS calculation like the one posted before is actually used for. Hint, it's not what you think it's used for.

[Qhualor]

And if you really "skillful" you do not need to hop around and wiggle and just stand there and kill em all. I presume you are talking about EE here at least I hope so...

Having basic experience to know when to smite or not when to cleave or not when to pop a heal scroll etc etc has not much to do with the discussion, it has more to do with if you suck and then any build OP or not will not help you till you learn better.

A dps calc gives us an indication on whether the various builds will acerbate any problems.

if you want to avoid getting hit you move around. standing there swapping blows for maximum damage isn't always a smart way to do it unless you have the dps to kill fast enough and the defense.

speaking of smiting, ive seen players waste boosts on single target trash mobs and smite elementals. this is where player skill is most important because you need to know when its the best time to maximize your damage. having to stop swinging to switch to a heal scroll is a loss to dps. having to stop to heal period is a loss to dps. some of this does tie into general play skill, but if you want to see the difference between THF glancing blows while moving and the doublestrike of TWF than skill is very much important to the discussion.

[Qhualor]

Again, you misunderstand what a DPS calculation like the one posted before is actually used for. Hint, it's not what you think it's used for.

I know what its used for. its used for assumptions.

[Wongar]

Again, you misunderstand what a DPS calculation like the one posted before is actually used for. Hint, it's not what you think it's used for.

Help me out and explain what it is used for. As I see it, any model that assume a single target, ignores weapon procs and AOE affects, and assumes attacking 100% of the time (no movement / healing / etc) has too many short comings to be useful for much. On the other hand, trying to capture everything quickly leads to an overly complex model loaded with assumptions making it very difficult to actually model what real play will show.

[SilkofDrasnia]

if you want to avoid getting hit you move around. standing there swapping blows for maximum damage isn't always a smart way to do it unless you have the dps to kill fast enough and the defense.

speaking of smiting, ive seen players waste boosts on single target trash mobs and smite elementals. this is where player skill is most important because you need to know when its the best time to maximize your damage. having to stop swinging to switch to a heal scroll is a loss to dps. having to stop to heal period is a loss to dps. some of this does tie into general play skill, but if you want to see the difference between THF glancing blows while moving and the doublestrike of TWF than skill is very much important to the discussion.

Whats your point? Like I said having basic experience of when or not to smite etc etc has to do with someone sucking as a player and not much to do with if the fighting lines are balanced.

When having this discussion it's just common sense to discuss on the basis we have experience and know how to play. You're taking this discussion and then trying to apply individual twitch skills and other things which should not factor in, you are just reaching trying to prove you are right.

These things should not factor in when trying to balance the fighting lines it's very simple to understand.

I mean common if someone spends his time chucking tornadoes around, it affects balance in a sense, it shouldn't factor into this should it?