Developers: what about Two Weapon Fighting?

[blerkington]

Hi,

I've noticed the very short TWF attack range too, on my rapier-wielding ranger/rogue. It's at the most acute when chasing mobs, even if they are slower than or move at the same speed as you.

I don't remember the update or patch, but some time back I thought I remembered reading that the hitbox for unarmed combat was made larger to improve the playability of monks. If there is actually a difference between hitbox size for unarmed and armed TWF combat, perhaps the armed combatants could get the same improvement.

Lastly, it would be good to get some more information about why TWF is not going to receive a melee power buff. As others have mentioned in this thread, not all TWF builds are tempests. If it's because you're worried about making one subset of TWF builds too strong with a melee power buff, perhaps you could identify that subset, and start talking to the community about what can be done to assist the other TWF builds.

My own main's current build, a twf ranger/rogue who normally runs in shiradi, is about to fall through the cracks here, and miss out on most of the boosts associated with this rebalancing of the combat system (both ED and fighting style). Why this has to be the case, I still don't know, given that he isn't currently anywhere near the top of the DPS tree as things are.

Thanks.

[redoubt]

Nonsense, those abilities are still a waste of AP.

Agreed. I've never used the top tier in tempest even though I do TWF a lot. I have never seen them as worth the points and I still do not.

Maybe someone will come forward and explain how they are actually worth using.

And the last point, why is everyone pointing to tempest as the way to fix twf? Yes, I've played my share of twf'n rangers, but what about rogues and fighters and any other TWF'r out there who is not a ranger?

[Nayus]

And the last point, why is everyone pointing to tempest as the way to fix twf?

It's just BridgeDweller spamming it constantly, he doesn't have an avatar or sig so it feels like there are a bunch different people talking about it.
I, for example, cannot do that since I am an individual of utmost force of presence.

[Psiandron]

For what it's worth the way that I see it is that Turbine goes the extra mile to make sure that THF doesn't fall too far behind TWF in Single target damage, but Turbine doesn't do anything to insure that TWF doesn't drop off the map in terms of AOE, which it really has. So, THF gets 20 bonus MP so that it keeps pace in terms of damage. Meanwhile TWF gets...

SWF is the newest style and is still getting the initial wave of love. Eventually it'll get nerfed back into the niche Turbine decides to plop it into, but for now it's all sunshine and lollypops.

S&B hasn't had any real importance to the game since classic tanking bit it. Right now it seems that we're on the cusp of a rehabilitation effort from Turbine, so S&B is getting some love.


The tempest tree is pretty useful for me as I often splash ranger for it, but that does not mean that Tempest = TWF. If you want to do something for TWF, do it. Don't throw a relatively minor buff at a couple high-tier enhancements in one tree in one class.

And at the very least, some time soon I'd really appreciate a fix to the hitbox and moving attacks problems.


That my 2 coppers anyway,
Psi

[Grailhawk]

Agreed. I've never used the top tier in tempest even though I do TWF a lot. I have never seen them as worth the points and I still do not.

Maybe someone will come forward and explain how they are actually worth using.

And the last point, why is everyone pointing to tempest as the way to fix twf? Yes, I've played my share of twf'n rangers, but what about rogues and fighters and any other TWF'r out there who is not a ranger?

A Growing Storm is worth the 3 AP investment now. The way the enhancement works is it gives you a buff that allows you to trigger a second buff on hitting an enemy since it is two buffs one that last 15 seconds and on that last 5 seconds you end up with a total buff duration of 20 seconds 2-3 of those seconds are going to be used to build the second buff up to a 10 stack this means that for 18 out of every 30 seconds you will have a +10 to damage that is on average 10*18/30 = 6 damage.

+6 to damage is worth 3AP.

As for Dance of Death it may not be worth aiming for and there are other Tier 5's in other trees that are far better but if you have locked yourself out of them by taking the Improved Evasion T5 enhancement from tempest then its is no longer a complete waist of points as it is a nice AoE damage ability that works well with TWF unlike the cleaves. Could you find better place to spend the points yes but at least its now not a complete waist of AP.

[Wizza]

Okay, they made MP affect SA damage, great news! Can anyone test this btw? I cannot at the moment.

Also, MP still not adding to TWF AND Shadowdancer is not getting any melee power too. I just cannot understand why. It's still a melee destiny that is supposed to do damage and is far behind than any other Epic Destiny. Wasn't the whole point of this to bring weakers ED on par with the stronger ones?

[Severlin]

Okay, they made MP affect SA damage, great news! Can anyone test this btw? I cannot at the moment.

Also, MP still not adding to TWF AND Shadowdancer is not getting any melee power too. I just cannot understand why. It's still a melee destiny that is supposed to do damage and is far behind than any other Epic Destiny. Wasn't the whole point of this to bring weakers ED on par with the stronger ones?

Shadowdancer should be getting Melee Power in its cores.

Sev~

[burningwind]

i don't like the idea of selling enhancement tree.. selling class is one thing and selling a tree that everyone can use is a different thing. though i would like to see more of these common tree, so ill shut up for now...

[Severlin]

As for Dance of Death it may not be worth aiming for and there are other Tier 5's in other trees that are far better but if you have locked yourself out of them by taking the Improved Evasion T5 enhancement from tempest then its is no longer a complete waist of points as it is a nice AoE damage ability that works well with TWF unlike the cleaves. Could you find better place to spend the points yes but at least its now not a complete waist of AP.

One thing we were looking at is whether we wanted to slightly buff the duration.

Sev~

[ThomasHunter]

One thing we were looking at is whether we wanted to slightly buff the duration.

Sev~

I use it on my main melee toon and it always does seem too short and then too long to come back.

[Grailhawk]

One thing we were looking at is whether we wanted to slightly buff the duration.

Sev~

I think I would rather see a cost reduction to 3ap than an extra 2 or 3 second.

[Wizza]

Shadowdancer should be getting Melee Power in its cores.

Sev~

Great news.

I've been tweaking my Assassin on Lamannia at the moment and I must say, I'm loving these changes for that toon. It's not a toon that I play too often but it sure needed a buff, with the way other melees are doing DPS wise. These changes really made me enjoy that rogue like the old times so props for me for a buff to Assassin with MP affecting SA and the Harper tree.

Can't wait with the MP added to SD, I feel I can actually play in Shadowdancer without being called a noob by my friends (*cough*Zoda*cough*).

[wiliamsane]

Great news ! buff to Tempests and Rogues .. yay ... Tempest may finally use those clickies !

But what if i told you not only tempests and sneak attack rogues using TWF ? I did not notice any reply by Sev about TWF itself ...

[adrian69]

I TR'd a day before the patch. I originally made a THF BF (12 Ftr 4 pally 4 monk) 11 ftr 2 pally 2 monk, centered Falc and G-sword. I was using Vampiric Cleaver and Vamp G-sword, and a Falchion: Icy burst of Humuniod Bane III slotted with Meteoric Ruby. The damage was ok after patch. Still not what I'd thought it should have been with +10+ MP.

I LR'd into a Bastard Sword TWF build around lvl 17. I greatly noticed a difference in damage. I am using and still using at 22, until I can catch up to my TF Bastards at 24 Elite First Blood, Templar's Retribution (named, demons, and outsiders), and a +2 Icyburst Sun's Fury of Slicing Winds (Trash). In Epics, I am running LD 5 and pull way ahead of THF (haven't played w/ a SWF yet, which is odd. There used to be ton of them last week), which has been most everyone that I am qued with, even the almighty paladin and barbarian in their late 20s. Now I am in core 3 of KotC, which scales with MP, so maybe that adds up a lot of dps on two weapons, and have pally cleave tier 3 and procing Lay Waste and MS every chance I get.

So, I am going to do this. I am going to LR, again, back into a THF build and see epic levels made a huge difference from heroic. I need to fix two or three feats anyways. Multishot seems to suck sense patch, or I need to add bow str one.

Anyways, I think what it boils down to is TWF will come out ahead if you have a lot of double strike. Maybe Maddmatt or Luzifer will find this post and concur since I read one of them arguing for twf still being optimal with a mathematical formula at some point. .

[Jappy]

Im getting mad
when will u24 lammina come back im dieig to test a build there

[Psiandron]

Im getting mad
when will u24 lammina come back im dieig to test a build there

No sense getting mad about it.

Lammania is just never going to be there with enough frequency that you should count on it.

You'll just have to get used to plan using the planner and then playing out your concepts on live.

Best of luck

Oh and, dieig? Really?! I'm a terrible typist, but dying just isn't that hard. ;P

[Neomarica]

I think most everyone in this thread is missing an important part of the equation here. TWF is SUPPOSED to suck. After all, not only is it more realistic that way(you don't see a lot of real-world fighting styles using two weapons for simultaneous attacking, after all: Even when a second weapon is used, it's mostly for parrying. Some exceptional individuals not withstanding), but it's also faithful to the tabletop, where TWF is only a good choice if you have large source of bonus damage that applies on each hit(like with rogue and sneak attack).

I don't REALLY need to add sarcasm tag to the end of the post, right?...right...

[Singular]

But were there any changes to TWF?

And not just to tempest - what about fighter twf?

[Psiandron]

But were there any changes to TWF?

And not just to tempest - what about fighter twf?

No.

I mean you'll get the same melee power as everyone else, but there is no bonus MP for TWF and they didn't fix any of the broken facets of TWF.

[Singular]

No.

I mean you'll get the same melee power as everyone else, but there is no bonus MP for TWF and they didn't fix any of the broken facets of TWF.

That sucks. A lot of special attacks, including Adrenaline, stop the animation for TWF - effectively stopping our dps output. However, Cleave and Great Cleave do not do so.