Developers: what about Two Weapon Fighting?

[Xario]

May be developer should buff TWF at least by doing that while cleaving with twf, both weapon will hit enemies following twf cleaving animation.

While doing this, they also should repair Whrilwind feat to working right with weapon. While unarmed this attack will do 2-4 attack (probably 2 + bonus attack from twf), but with any weapon in hands this attack will do only one attack with time delay before and after animation.

[Zerkul]

I mentioned that THF is top DPS if there's even one other mob nearby for glancing blows (and it's pretty competitive without it). Power Attack is a very common THF feat that probably could have been used in the calculation, but then TWF looks even worse.

If you're curious:

+Glancing Blow & Power Attack on Two Handed Fighting:
Base Damage (((3.5(5)) + (20*1.5) + 9 + 10)1.85) = 123.025 Damage-Per-Swing
Glancing Blow Damage: (((3.5(5)) + (20*1.5) + 9 + 10)1.85)0.5 = 61.5125 Damage-Per-Proc

Total Damage = (Base Damage + (Glancing Blows proc on attack 1, 3 & 4, so 0.75)(Glancing Blow Damage))*Attack Speed

Table: Damage Comparisons + Power Attack & Glancing Blows on THF
Total THF Damage: (123.025 + 0.75(61.5125))2.53 = 427.97321875 Damage-Per-Second
Total SWF Damage: (((3.5(3.5)) + (20*1.5) + 9 + 5)1.85)3.29 = 342.365625 Damage-Per-Second
Total TWF Damage: ((((3.5(3.5)) + (20) + 9 + 5)1.65)2.67) + ((((3.5(3.5)) + (20*.5) + 9 + 5)1.65)1.77) = 309.6225 Damage-Per-Second

In an enhancementless world, a single-weapon fighter would get glancing blows too--for maximum damage. If you're interested, I'll add that to this post.

Your calculations are a starting point though they need more variables. The aim of the feedback is to bring developers an idea of what is happening with overall combat styles DPS in terms of balance: balance naturally involves also weapons used (procs are missing) and builds. You need real builds and endgame weapons or builds for lower levels with real lower levels weapons.

[Varinon]

Your calculations are a starting point though they need more variables. The aim of the feedback is to bring developers an idea of what is happening with overall combat styles DPS in terms of balance: balance naturally involves also weapons used (procs are missing) and builds. You need real builds and endgame weapons or builds for lower levels with real lower levels weapons.

I'm open to running some other examples if you want to see them, but you'll have to be specific.
The idea for the math was a generalized comparison between the feats only.

[N-0cturn]

I'm open to running some other examples if you want to see them, but you'll have to be specific.
The idea for the math was a generalized comparison between the feats only.

The main issue I see with the calculation is that it does not include enough damage sources. Every additional Damage source that applies to all attacks (deadly, enchancements, sneak attacks, weapon effects etc.) favour TWF since it still has most attacks per minute.

If I add a static +30 damage bonus to your formula I get the following numbers:

THF: 621,0438438 = ((((3,5*(3,5))+(20 )+9+5+30)*1,65)*2,67)+((((3,5*(3,5))+(20*0,5)+9+30 +5)*1,65)*1,77)
TWF: 529,4025 = ((((3,5*(5))+(20*1,5)+9+30+10)*1,85)+0,75*((((3,5* (5))+(20*1,5)+9+30+10)*1,85)*0,5))*2,53
SWF: 524,960625 = (((3,5*(3,5))+(20*1,5)+9+30+5)*1,85)*3,29

In this example TWF is already better that SWF. The number 30 is made up however and for a real comparison it only makes sense to compare real builds considering all damage sources and crit profiles, which is quite a bit of work.

EDIT: The above calculation was just made to show how the results can change. It should not lead to any conclusions. Glancing blows for example have a lower chance to proc effects, which would close the gap between TWF/SWF and THF. But if you include on-Hit effects you simply have to include the crit profiles. I don't think there is an easy way to compare the number without complete builds with gear and destinies and a full dps chart.

[RTN]

We also buffed Venomed Blades from Assassin to scale with 200% Melee Power. Two Weapon Fighting can generate the most on hit effects of any style.

Sev~

Will the venomed blades and sneak attack bug be fixed for U23? If not, this isn't going to be very useful. U23 Known Issues still lists it.

[Bridge_Dweller]

Great feedback in this thread.

We are watching two weapon fighting closely for balance.

Some thoughts:

~ We buffed Tempest to significantly reduce the cooldowns on two key abilities. The Growing Storm's damage buff should have just under a 50% up time, and Dance of Death should have a bit more than 1/3 up time. With Dance of Death doing 5[W] and changing all base attacks to a 4 enemy AoE we want to see how that compares to glancing blows.

Sev~

I don't know anybody who can afford to waste APs on that garbage.

And what about TWFing fighters?

[Qhualor]

I don't know anybody who can afford to waste APs on that garbage.

And what about TWFing fighters?

you must be referring to multi class builds. for a pure Tempest, there is no waste of AP.

[Grailhawk]

I don't know anybody who can afford to waste APs on that garbage.

And what about TWFing fighters?

You're wrong about A Growing Strom, its as good as A Dance of Flowers when talking d6 weapons and only slightly behind when talking d8. On average its about a +6 to damage per hit.

[DougGlyndwyr]

Cause everyone that is twf or was is a ranger a la Drizzt Do'Urden!

I shouldn't have to suffer that calumny, sir. I had never even heard of Drizzt until after playing this game and having the temerity to ask who he was, to mine own sorrow.

[MrWindupBird]

Great feedback in this thread.

We are watching two weapon fighting closely for balance.


Sev~

Thought I would chime in here.

Over the last few months I've run multiple (10ish) melee lives to level 28, EE streaking, and largely solo in LD (sometimes crusader). The character I did this with was quite well geared and has many relevant pastlives. I used strong builds for all lives: TWF ranger15/4pally/1fighter with warhammers in LD (see Eth's NoYellowBar build) a 10pally/8fighter/2monk centered kensei with ESoS, and various Swashbuckler splits with shield mastery. That's the context for my comments.

My very strong impressions (all styles went through at least two 20-28 cycles): in terms of both damage and playability, the hierarchy on live is SWF is slightly stronger than THF, which is significantly stronger than TWF. This is overall: for single target damage I found that TWF was roughly comparable to SWF, and slightly ahead of THF. For groups THF was slightly ahead of SWF, which was miles ahead of TWF. With the proposed changes, SWF will be roughly the same (less attribute bonus is well-balanced by 20 MP), with THF getting a large power jump from glancing blows and MP and jumping back to the lead.

There are a few reasons why TWF is currently quite lacking in comparison. One is the absolutely awful AoE damage. As far as I can tell, none of the cleaves proc offhand. Further, they all have a very slow animation time for TWF. Either of those alone would make cleaving (including LD abilities, and even Strike Down) a waste of time in single target damage, and the combination of both means that I actually stopped using them even when fighting groups. If you're getting half the damage per swing (no offhand) and it takes twice as long (roughly correct I think), there's no reason to use cleaves with TWF even when surrounded by 4 mobs.

That segues into another issue, that I haven't seen brought up yet. Basically, TWF animations are borked. The hitboxes for attacking when moving are very small for TWF, compared to either SWF or TWF. A lot of movement is needed to mitigate damage and survive as a melee character in EE, and while both THF and SWF toons are capable of moving around the perimeter of a group, slipping in and out and cleaving, this doesn't work as well with TWF. For the first few levels of the TWF lives I kept checking my character sheet for missing PRR and fortification, since I was surprised by the amount and speed of incoming damage. There was nothing wrong there of course: I realized that I'd been forced to play much tighter to the mobs I was fighting, because the moving TWF hitbox is so bad, and was consequently taking a lot more damage from mobs. You really cant hit anything while moving and TWF unless it is directly in front of you and very very close. I'm not sure how to better communicate this, but I suggest that a dev take a character into something straightforward like EE Von1 with a THF toon and a TWF toon, and try to avoid as much damage as possible via movement while you attack, and just see how it goes. This is actually a pretty big deal, imo, and the single most aggravating thing about TWF.

So, I've suggested that from a raw damage standpoint, even if you're just standing still and taking the hits, TWF isn't in great shape. Combine that with the fact that movement is really frustrating and theres no effective way to deal with large clumps of enemies, and you have a problem.

Some mechanical issues with the way that TWF works now have already been outlined: the lack of offhand attacks and slow animations with cleaves, and the poor hitboxes for attacking while moving. Additionally, the implementation of doublestrike puts TWF further behind the curve: doublestrike doesn't benefit offhand. So, with ~25% doublestrike (very reasonable now for both THF and SWF builds, staff builds and shield mastery SWF toons can sustain more than 40), the effective benefit to the TWF toon is more like 13%. I dont actually know how offhand-doublestrike is implemented right now: I know that it used to be pretty useless because it would only proc off of mainhand doublestrikes. Perfect TWF never felt dramatic to me, suggesting that offhand doublestrike is not very significant. It would be simpler and more balanced if doublestrike simply procced both mainhand and offhand for TWF: that would make the styles are balanced with respect to doublestrike. Under this proposal, if a THF toon and a TWF toon were balanced at 0% doublestrike, they still would still be at 40% doublestrike. As is, if they are balanced at 0%, the THF will be ahead by a very large margin when both are at 40%. As is, doublestrike actually significantly erodes TWF's supposed advantage in procs.

Those are my thoughts! If anyone has further ideas or wants to test something, let me know. Cheers. In the meantime I guess I'll plan out some THF builds.

[Wizza]

Great feedback in this thread.

We are watching two weapon fighting closely for balance.

Some thoughts:

~ We buffed Tempest to significantly reduce the cooldowns on two key abilities. The Growing Storm's damage buff should have just under a 50% up time, and Dance of Death should have a bit more than 1/3 up time. With Dance of Death doing 5[W] and changing all base attacks to a 4 enemy AoE we want to see how that compares to glancing blows.

~ As we move more and more towards a system that scales with Melee Power, abilities which use on hit effects will grow in usefulness. The Paladin's light damage is an example. We also buffed Venomed Blades from Assassin to scale with 200% Melee Power. Two Weapon Fighting can generate the most on hit effects of any style.

Sev~

Okay, a couple of points.

You talk about Tempest, I know not much about those. You buff them, good. Now, what about Assassins? Those are TWF too. Where is their buff? Cause they NEED one.

Second point, TWF in general:

TWF has many issue that I'm going to list here:

1) Cleaving does not proc off-hand
2) Cleaving is incredible slow
3) Moving while attacking (twitching) cause the animation to be sloppy, slow, terrible in general. You CANNOT move while TWFing.
4) No AoE due to cleaving being terrible
5) TWFers usually use DEX to hit/dmg and Dex is WAY LOWER than STR. Primal scream, Divine Might that adds STR and not DEX, etc etc
6) Your off-hand has a 80% chance unless you are a tempest or a monk or 90% if you are Half-Elf with Ranger Dilettante
7) You HAVE to invest in three feats, unlike THF
8) The never lasting augment that TWF needs double the ingredients to make their weapons

Yes, you may have more dmg coming from dmg-on-hit procs but how many of those are really valuable? They only one I can think of is Mortal Fear and against bosses it is useless. Also, here comes the 3): if you try to move, you are losing all those benefits and may actually result in a death.

Add all of this to the fact that now TWF is the ONLY fighting style to get not the 20 MP bonus (even SHIELD USERS ARE GETTING IT!!!!) and the picture is pretty clear now.

TWF is in a bad shape. It has never been so bad and sad and I really hope that you guys are going to take a look at it for real.

[Zerkul]

A lot depends on the build that's why comparingf different styles with same build doesn't work. Let me explain with an example...

Barbarians get a thirds cleave and more glancing blow damage and this makes them the ideal candidate for THF. If you use the same build but with TWF or SWF you'll end performing less even in terms of single target DPS. This means that if you compare styles just considering barbarians you'll end up saying that THF is the best style.

Differently if you pick up a Monk-Kensai build and give it two thunderforged weapons you'll do better with TWF in terms of single target DPS. The amount of better though will be a lot and thus you'll be ending saying that THF is terrible confronted to TWF.

Same goes for swashbucklers with exploit weakness though situation goes in favor of SWF.

... End of the story, as I already did for SWF feedback thread, you guys need to compare numbers for the best (or hypothetically best) build for each style and see how they compare each other.

Right now (even with melee power change) the pinnacle of TWF DPS should be an half-elf Monk-Kensai build with thunderforged weapons, Wind stance and ranger dilettante. You get 100% proc for secondary weapon and a lot of other stuff. If I recall correctly this one is probably as well the BEST single target melee DPS around. Try roll one and tell me how you feel. It should beat also the best SWF builds around right now.

[Zoda]

6) Your off-hand has a 80% chance unless you are a tempest or a monk

I completely agree with every point you made, except that one. Half-elf gets 90% offhand proc with ranger dilettante on any class (ofc then you are missing out on the almighty bladeforged recon lol)

Right now (even with melee power change) the pinnacle of TWF DPS should be an half-elf Monk-Kensai build with thunderforged weapons, Wind stance and ranger dilettante. You get 100% proc for secondary weapon and a lot of other stuff. If I recall correctly this one is probably as well the BEST single target melee DPS around. Try roll one and tell me how you feel. It should beat also the best SWF builds around right now.

I wonder if that's still true after the glancing blow changes (and with the 20 MP that twf doesn't get). A decked out blitzing, twitching THFer gets like 250-300 glancing damage per hit now that they did not in the past (assuming 60% gb damage). A SWFer with a dwarven waraxe can also get up to 39% glancing damage with PTHF + Wild Weapons, that should also be a signifacant buff to its single target dps (even considering the slight nerf swf feats got in general).

Interested in seeing how the addition of MP changes the situation of twf, but the awkward attack/move animation and horrid cleaves will still discourage me from playing twf in the near future unless if it's a monk (on that note a wraps using 15 pally/5monk should pump out way higher dps than older wraps builds).

[Thar]

Great feedback in this thread.

We are watching two weapon fighting closely for balance.

Some thoughts:

~ We buffed Tempest to significantly reduce the cooldowns on two key abilities. The Growing Storm's damage buff should have just under a 50% up time, and Dance of Death should have a bit more than 1/3 up time. With Dance of Death doing 5[W] and changing all base attacks to a 4 enemy AoE we want to see how that compares to glancing blows.

~ As we move more and more towards a system that scales with Melee Power, abilities which use on hit effects will grow in usefulness. The Paladin's light damage is an example. We also buffed Venomed Blades from Assassin to scale with 200% Melee Power. Two Weapon Fighting can generate the most on hit effects of any style.

Sev~

one thousand cuts needs a timer reduction too. the above is great for tempest but don't leave one as unusable. 2 min for 6 secs of doublestrike isn't useful. 1 sec of that is just getting back to your attack after clicking the button.

[Ayseifn]

I completely agree with every point you made, except that one. Half-elf gets 90% offhand proc with ranger dilettante on any class (ofc then you are missing out on the almighty bladeforged recon lol)

Losing neg level immunity will also be a big deal if you want to run a lot of the new Necro content, most people I see these days don't build for maxxx DPS and instead make build concessions for defence.

I wonder if that's still true after the glancing blow changes (and with the 20 MP that twf doesn't get). A decked out blitzing, twitching THFer gets like 250-300 glancing damage per hit now that they did not in the past (assuming 60% gb damage). A SWFer with a dwarven waraxe can also get up to 39% glancing damage with PTHF + Wild Weapons, that should also be a signifacant buff to its single target dps (even considering the slight nerf swf feats got in general).

Interested in seeing how the addition of MP changes the situation of twf, but the awkward attack/move animation and horrid cleaves will still discourage me from playing twf in the near future unless if it's a monk (on that note a wraps using 15 pally/5monk should pump out way higher dps than older wraps builds).

Yeah, the awkwardness of TWF wont show up in DPS calcs, I usually have ~300ms ping to the server so TWF is really not fun a lot of the time. I love TWF but it just doesn't work well for me living so far from Turbine HQ, so these days I mostly go THF even if on paper it's a DPS hit. I see the moving and still getting glancing blows as more of a quality of life change than a DPS boost and would love something similar for TWFers. The moving while glancing might be overboard as it is though, will have to check it out when it goes live. Getting rewarded for getting in position early and being able to stay there is one thing I like about TWF, if I did the exact same DPS by just running around and swinging it'd take away a lot of the melee strategies, quest knowledge and group play that people build up over time, really dumbing down the game.

Same thing with Archer's Focus, I love that feat as it rewards you for getting into position early and being able to stand your ground. It's not great vs trash where you'd normally use IPS but spectacular vs high HP mobs. So get close so you benefit from Point Blank Shot and stand, deliver +1W and 2-30% damage(scaling up over time), while trying not to move, possibly steal aggro and predict where the tank will tank the monster. Helps encounters change from repeat to repeat and adds a fairly high skill ceiling, both good things.

[Nightmanis]

A lot depends on the build that's why comparingf different styles with same build doesn't work. Let me explain with an example...

Barbarians get a thirds cleave and more glancing blow damage and this makes them the ideal candidate for THF. If you use the same build but with TWF or SWF you'll end performing less even in terms of single target DPS. This means that if you compare styles just considering barbarians you'll end up saying that THF is the best style.

Differently if you pick up a Monk-Kensai build and give it two thunderforged weapons you'll do better with TWF in terms of single target DPS. The amount of better though will be a lot and thus you'll be ending saying that THF is terrible confronted to TWF.

Same goes for swashbucklers with exploit weakness though situation goes in favor of SWF.

... End of the story, as I already did for SWF feedback thread, you guys need to compare numbers for the best (or hypothetically best) build for each style and see how they compare each other.

Right now (even with melee power change) the pinnacle of TWF DPS should be an half-elf Monk-Kensai build with thunderforged weapons, Wind stance and ranger dilettante. You get 100% proc for secondary weapon and a lot of other stuff. If I recall correctly this one is probably as well the BEST single target melee DPS around. Try roll one and tell me how you feel. It should beat also the best SWF builds around right now.

Half elf 11 rogue 8 fighter 1 monk dual wielding... Probably rapiers. With the killer enhancement in full swing in ultimate wind I might think that build would be higher dps.

I would think a pure tempest with dual rapiers or scimitars should be the pinnacle of twf dps, since tempest is outright designed solely with twf in mind.

[Zerkul]

Half elf 11 rogue 8 fighter 1 monk dual wielding... Probably rapiers. With the killer enhancement in full swing in ultimate wind I might think that build would be higher dps.

I would think a pure tempest with dual rapiers or scimitars should be the pinnacle of twf dps, since tempest is outright designed solely with twf in mind.

Will test this build.

Edit: Checked out your build... While it looses some good amount of strength it gains with sneak attack that edge that gets it on par with the build I said (yours does roghly 1% more DPS). If you add killer the result is even better.

The only difference is that you have to sneak attack to get top DPS else the Monkesai classic build is better by a good amount. Still a very nice build yours very valid.

[Wizza]

Will test this build.

Edit: Checked out your build... While it looses some good amount of strength it gains with sneak attack that edge that gets it on par with the build I said (yours does roghly 1% more DPS). If you add killer the result is even better.

The only difference is that you have to sneak attack to get top DPS else the Monkesai classic build is better by a good amount. Still a very nice build yours very valid.

Killer is a very bad enhancement to put in a DPS calculation for the only fact that you don't lose 1 stack if you fail to kill a mob within the time limit (RESPECT DA TIME LIMIT) but you lose the whole stack.

They should change that.

[Zerkul]

Why not simply make a new feat for TWF called something like Wide Swings and make it do % chance for each TWF hit to hit two targets or a mini version of the Tempest enhancement?

[Wizza]

Why not simply make a new feat for TWF called something like Wide Swings and make it do % chance for each TWF hit to hit two targets or a mini version of the Tempest enhancement?

They are not even giving us the 20 Melee Power THAT EVEN SHIELD USERS ARE GETTING. Do you really think they would give us something like that?