Developers: what about Two Weapon Fighting?

[Bridge_Dweller]

It doesn't.

I know, making a suggestion that would fix it.

[Wizza]

TWF still gets MP from epic levels and EDs, the 20% from weapon style won't mean TWF does 20% less per hit. Though it costs more to equip, it'll still have the highest ceiling for single target damage and ROF.

This is not true at all. It doesn't have the highest single target damage and not better attack speed. In fact, SWF is better than TWF in both of the sides. Also, SWF can cleave, TWF cannot. SWF can twitch while DPS'ing. TWF cannot because if you move while DPSing with TWF then you lose tons of DPS because of the really bad animation. Cleaves doesn't proc off-hand damage so another reason why SWF is better.

No, there are no reasons why TWF shouldn't get 20 Melee Power too. And there are no reasons to not let Melee Power affect SA damage too.

[Mryal]

You are giving SWF a +20 Melee Power bonus. Where is TWF?

Read again.SWF is actualy getting nerfed, losing the +200% stat bonus going down to 150%, in favor of gaining 20 melee power.But im ok with it, and i use it every day.

And there are no reasons to not let Melee Power affect SA damage too.

This makes no sense, if its not beign affected by melee power, its likely bugged then.Any dev response on this before it goes live and we never know if its WAI or not?

[SilkofDrasnia]

Nope..... It should be what is balancing.

And proxy nerfing twf isn't balancing.


I played twf for a long long time, I have a nice, nice collection of khops which are sitting in my TR cache on my melee main cause thf is just easier and so much better if you discount red named bosses.

I understand flavor of wanting swf but it just makes twf meh and unbalances the fighting lines horribly.

[Wizza]

Read again.SWF is actualy getting nerfed, losing the +200% stat bonus going down to 150%, in favor of gaining 20 melee power.But im ok with it, and i use it every day.

But you are getting +40 Melee Power with SWF and Shield feats. It probably balance itselfs out. It's still more powerful than TWF in every area.

This makes no sense, if its not beign affected by melee power, its likely bugged then.Any dev response on this before it goes live and we never know if its WAI or not?

I hope so =\ I opened a new thread about that but I guess here it's fine too.

[A-O]

Read again.SWF is actualy getting nerfed, losing the +200% stat bonus going down to 150%, in favor of gaining 20 melee power.But im ok with it, and i use it every day.

Actually, SWF is getting buffed compared to how it is now. Say you do 150 damage per swing currently sitting at say 60 str. That 60 str is a 25 modifier. Or 50 damage currently.
After the patch it'll be 37.5 damage from strength, so 137.5 damage per swing instead. But, you're getting 20 melee power. If you are anything but LD you're sitting at 70 MP base, or 90 with the new SWF.
That means 137.5*1.9 vs 150*1.7. Or 261 vs 255.

The more base damage per swing, the greater the benefit from MP, but the more MP (say you go LD for 170 MP), the less benefit from the new SWF.

In most scenarios, it'll likely end up as a buff to SWF.

[droid327]

This is not true at all. It doesn't have the highest single target damage and not better attack speed. In fact, SWF is better than TWF in both of the sides. Also, SWF can cleave, TWF cannot. SWF can twitch while DPS'ing. TWF cannot because if you move while DPSing with TWF then you lose tons of DPS because of the really bad animation. Cleaves doesn't proc off-hand damage so another reason why SWF is better.

No, there are no reasons why TWF shouldn't get 20 Melee Power too. And there are no reasons to not let Melee Power affect SA damage too.

Cleave is the same twf or swf except for the (reduced) stat bonus in swf.

Twf is still faster. 100% offhand plus double strike, vs 30% attack speed plus double strike. Twf gets 100% stat main hand and 50% off hand, swf gets 150% main hand.

Plus tempest got buffs too to close the gap with SB.

[droid327]

But you are getting +40 Melee Power with SWF and Shield feats. It probably balance itselfs out. It's still more powerful than TWF in every area.

Sure you get more melee power for five feats than three...

[droid327]

Actually, SWF is getting buffed compared to how it is now. Say you do 150 damage per swing currently sitting at say 60 str. That 60 str is a 25 modifier. Or 50 damage currently.
After the patch it'll be 37.5 damage from strength, so 137.5 damage per swing instead. But, you're getting 20 melee power. If you are anything but LD you're sitting at 70 MP base, or 90 with the new SWF.
That means 137.5*1.9 vs 150*1.7. Or 261 vs 255.

The more base damage per swing, the greater the benefit from MP, but the more MP (say you go LD for 170 MP), the less benefit from the new SWF.

In most scenarios, it'll likely end up as a buff to SWF.

Counterpoint...If you're doing 125/112 currently as twf, with 70MP that goes up to 212/190. Swf gained 111 dmg x 30% faster= 144, twf gains 87+78=165 dmg

[SilkofDrasnia]

Cleave is the same twf or swf except for the (reduced) stat bonus in swf.

Twf is still faster. 100% offhand plus double strike, vs 30% attack speed plus double strike. Twf gets 100% stat main hand and 50% off hand, swf gets 150% main hand.

Plus tempest got buffs too to close the gap with SB.

Cause everyone that is twf or was is a ranger a la Drizzt Do'Urden!

[nivarch]

But you are getting +40 Melee Power with SWF and Shield feats. It probably balance itselfs out. It's still more powerful than TWF in every area.

Well shield feats were supposed not to work anymore with Swashbuckler. Not sure if it is still the case.
Also Shield with SWF requires swashbuckler tier4, so locks out a lot of builds.

Actually, SWF is getting buffed compared to how it is now. Say you do 150 damage per swing currently sitting at say 60 str. That 60 str is a 25 modifier. Or 50 damage currently.
After the patch it'll be 37.5 damage from strength, so 137.5 damage per swing instead. But, you're getting 20 melee power. If you are anything but LD you're sitting at 70 MP base, or 90 with the new SWF.
That means 137.5*1.9 vs 150*1.7. Or 261 vs 255.

The more base damage per swing, the greater the benefit from MP, but the more MP (say you go LD for 170 MP), the less benefit from the new SWF.

In most scenarios, it'll likely end up as a buff to SWF.

Well... let's imagine you do 90 per hit with 60 strength (these are random numbers) and you play in the new LD (170 MP I believe).
- With 200% bonus to str and no MP you hit for 90 x 2,7 = 243
- With 150% bonus to str and +20 MP you hit for 78 x 2,9 = 226

Of course these are completely random numbers, and it would vary depending on your strength, your base damage, your total MP (the less MP you have, the less you are affected by the change) but it can be a nerf.
On the other hand it will probably be a boost when leveling, not that SWF needs it.

[A-O]

Well... let's imagine you do 90 per hit with 60 strength (these are random numbers) and you play in the new LD (170 MP I believe).
- With 200% bonus to str and no MP you hit for 90 x 2,7 = 243
- With 150% bonus to str and +20 MP you hit for 78 x 2,9 = 226

Of course these are completely random numbers, and it would vary depending on your strength, your base damage, your total MP (the less MP you have, the less you are affected by the change) but it can be a nerf.
On the other hand it will probably be a boost when leveling, not that SWF needs it.

That's pretty much exactly what I said. With the same conclusion, the more damage you do per swing, the better the new SWF will be. In other words, for max DPS builds SWF was buffed.

[Mryal]

Actually, SWF is getting buffed compared to how it is now. Say you do 150 damage per swing currently sitting at say 60 str. That 60 str is a 25 modifier. Or 50 damage currently.
After the patch it'll be 37.5 damage from strength, so 137.5 damage per swing instead. But, you're getting 20 melee power. If you are anything but LD you're sitting at 70 MP base, or 90 with the new SWF.
That means 137.5*1.9 vs 150*1.7. Or 261 vs 255.

The more base damage per swing, the greater the benefit from MP, but the more MP (say you go LD for 170 MP), the less benefit from the new SWF.

In most scenarios, it'll likely end up as a buff to SWF.

I currently use DC with Zeal of the righteous on, most of the time an additional 50-0 melee power.It probably balances out then.With master blitz charged its definetly a nerf (im not gonna use it thought).i think at heroic contents it will be a buff for sure, but for epics mostly everyone will be using LD or DC and will see a slight nerf.
Regarding the shield feats.I run a pure swash bard and i dont have room for the shield feats, id need fighter lvls for that, wich requires deeper splashing and losing out on bard class buffs to become a pure DPS specced toon instead.I think there will be better melee DPS options than that then.Notice that only swashbuckler can use shield feats with SWF thought.
That beign said turbine mentioned you not beign able to take em both at once (Wich makes sense).Maybe this is the case? If not.Just exclued buckler from shield maestry, doesnt really makes sense to allow it, buckler is a slot in your offhand for stats and for +10% dodge and low blow in a swash, its not an actual 'shield' like a SNB character would use.


But back to the original discussion of the topic.TWF is really good atm ,and its getting a slight side buff from the tempest enhancements on release notes.But if you wanna buff it (wich is np), id say give it something fun, like a +% chance to proc weapon effects, or +% damage to weapon effects.It incentives people to grind two weapons with good stuff on them or a finished T3 TF.

[Eth]

Wow, OK, Turbine, I get it. No more TWF for me.

Was pretty happy with the Dance of Death change - but this. No thanks.

[Qhualor]

And proxy nerfing twf isn't balancing.


I played twf for a long long time, I have a nice, nice collection of khops which are sitting in my TR cache on my melee main cause thf is just easier and so much better if you discount red named bosses.

I understand flavor of wanting swf but it just makes twf meh and unbalances the fighting lines horribly.

What proxy nerf? Sometimes nerfs are to make things more balanced and are good things. Nerf is too easily thrown around these parts. SWF is really good, but I haven't experienced it being that much more powerful than the other fighting styles.

[nivarch]

That's pretty much exactly what I said. With the same conclusion, the more damage you do per swing, the better the new SWF will be. In other words, for max DPS builds SWF was buffed.

Well we have almost the same analysis. Except I don't find your figures realistic.
In my opinion for someone Blitzing in almost all situations it will be nerfed - because 150 damage per swing with 60 strength seems too high.
For someone in other ED, it will probably be a small boost.

[Vargouille]

Point of information: Melee power from each combat style has the bonus type Combat Style.

With the current design, having all Shield, SWF, and THF feats gives +20 Melee Power total.

[Varinon]

TWF is getting a minor buff in the cooldowns for some tempest abilities, but in general, it'll fall even further behind SWF and now even THF.

My suggestion:
THF: +5/+15/+25 Melee Power
SWF: +15/+17.5/+20 Melee Power
TWF: +10/+15/+20 Melee Power

Reasoning:
Two-handed fighting starts off in early levels very powerfully. At low levels (when you'd get the first feat), it doesn't need as much help. Later in the game the other styles pick up more, and the THF feats don't do much on live to compensate. THF still does a bunch of damage, but the feats add little to it. To make them more desirable, higher feats boost MP more.

Single-Weapon fighting starts off awfully. Low level SWF is the weakest style, but the feats quickly ramp up the power via attack speed & stat multiplier. A SWF'er needs little incentive to take the feats by ways of MP--they're already incredibly good to take. Because of this, the MP per feat taken after the first is lower, but it ends up on-par with TWF's melee power.

Two-Weapon Fighting at low levels is the middle ground. It's decent--better than SWF but worse than THF early game. Because of this, their boost starts in the middle, not quite as strong as SWF but not as weak as THF. Additionally, TWF's strength doesn't change quite as much as the other two styles in respect to level (and their feats are roughly all equal power to each other), and as such they have a fairly reasonable, flat line per feat.

DISCLAIMER: Above text was typed BEFORE doing damage comparisons

Damage Comparisons:
All styles are using similar weapons for base damage. They will be at level 28, with no enhancements and only feats and style differences. Weapons used will be Thunderforged Tier 0.THF will be using a Falchion, TWF and SWF will be using 1 or 2 rapiers respectively. This is for the identical crit profile. Assumed a 50 in the stat relevant to damage (+20 bonus). We will be using This for our attack speed values, and assuming 20% doublestrike. Unarmed will not be mentioned here, as their +[W] is a little harder to generalize. On all rolled damage, average value will be used. (3.5 for 1d6, 2.5 for 1d4, etc).
We assume they are in an ED that gives melee power, and are capped.
You may notice critical hits are omitted. This is intentional, as the weapons all have identical crit profiles and receive exactly identical bonuses.

Single-Weapon Fighting (3.29 Attacks Per Second)
Example: ((+[W](Average rapier damage) + (Stat mod * SWF feat bonus) + Enhancement Bonus) * Melee Power) * Attack Speed) = Result

Result: (((3.5(3.5)) + (20*1.5) + 9)1.85)3.29 = 311.933125 Damage-Per-Second

Two-Handed Fighting (2.53 Attacks Per Second) (Glancing Blows not included)
Example: ((+[W](Average Falchion Damage) + (Stat mod * innate THF multiplier) + enhancement bonus + TF on-hits) * Melee Power) *Attack Speed = Result

Result: (((3.5(5)) + (20*1.5) + 9)1.85)2.53 = 264.44825 Damage-Per-Second

Two-Weapon Fighting (2.67 Mainhand and 1.77 Offhand attacks per second)
Example ((+[W](Average Rapier Damage) + (Stat mod) + Enhancement Bonus) * Melee Power) * Attack Speed) = Mainhand Damage
((+[W](Average Rapier Damage) + (Stat mod * Offhand penalty) + Enhancement Bonus) * Melee Power) * Attack Speed) = Offhand Damage
Total Damage = Offhand Damage + Mainhand Damage

Main Hand: (((3.5(3.5)) + (20) + 9)1.65)2.67 = 181.726875
Off Hand: (((3.5(3.5)) + (20*.5) + 9)1.65)1.77 = 91.265625
Total: 272.9925 Damage-Per-Second

Results:

As procs don't scale with MP, the main advantage of TWF is falling further and further behind. It's almost worse than THF single-target damage at this point, and a long way behind SWF. It really needs that extra +20 MP too, to even be relevant.

Food for thought, anyway.

Edit: Now let me go read the 20+ replies that have happened since I started writing this post...
Edit2: Don't forget that this is done without glancing blows, THF is #1 DPS if there's even one extra target for glancing blows to hit.

[Ovrad]

With the current design, having all Shield, SWF, and THF feats gives +20 Melee Power total.

And TWF gives you +0 Melee Power total.

[FestusHood]

Personally, i wish they would change two handed fighting to this new formula, leave single weapon fighting as it currently is on live, and then figure out how to balance two weapon fighting with them, possibly by giving full attribute bonus to offhand.

If they give all the styles 20 melee power, well what's the point in that? That's not balancing anything, it's just moving them all up a notch (or five).

As to whether single weapon fighting is stronger or weaker now, some math type will have to graph it out, i'm sure there is a point where strength bonus and overall damage bonus cross, and above or below that point will favor one or the other.

Either two weapon fighting was previously much stronger than the other two styles, or it's much weaker now. You can't increase the damage output of another style by a whopping 20% (or more), and say it's close enough. That's much more than any difference there currently is between single weapon fighting and two handed fighting.